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That's true Ken but later on I think I read in a fanzine that Feldstein was upset that Wood didn't give him credit for writing the dialogue when talking about the story. This was fifty years ago so I could have it wrong. The point I was trying to make was that in my opinion Stan lee wrote the dialogue for Daredevil 7 again based on Wally Wood comics I have read where the dialogue just doesn't match up to the empathy and writing style of Stan Lee. However since we weren't there nobody can say for sure.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. That's why I said these are my opinions and not facts. I love Steve Ditko and corresponded with him but after leaving Marvel he never wrote anything with the humanity of Spider-Man 31-33. He fleshed out the story in a way that was fantastic and certainly deserves all the credit for plotting the story but I don't think he wrote the incredible dialogue. The same goes for Jack Kirby after he left the Fantastic Four. None of his 4th world characters resonated with me the same way so I give the dialogue credit to Stan lee in making these characters so memorable. Do I know for sure who did what? No I don't and people can make up their own minds. Again I don't know for sure but if I remember correctly Wally Wood tried to take credit for writing the classic My World Story for EC Comics. Al Feldstein didn't take kindly to that since he said he wrote the dialogue. Again I will say for the final time these are opinions and not facts. None of us can say for sure what really happened.

I just got them out and they are all vague on who does what. lee's name is on all of them but we know that is under dispute on who did what. Here's the dramatic dialogue in 113 that to me is Stan lee's writing "A man can be destroyed! A team or an army can be destroyed. But how can you destroy an ideal- A dream? How do you destroy a living symbol--or his indomitable will--his unquenchable spirit? Some people will surely call this corny but I think it's great dramatic writing capturing the essence of what Captain America is supposed to stand for. Do I know for sure that Lee dialogued it and not Steranko? No I don't but based on the comics that went before I feel it is more likely Lee's words.

There are so many gray areas here that need to be taken in context of the times and can't really ever be certain about since all of the principals have now passed on and nobody in the early sixties could possibly have guessed how important these characters would be to so many people sixty year later. I will start by agreeing with Prince Namor and then go on to the areas I disagree with him. Keep in mind these are represented as my opinions and not in any way as facts. The so called Marvel Method was a real rip off to the artists. All of them deserved plotting credit and should have been paid much more than they were. Comparing a Stan lee marvel Comic to an Al Feldstein EC Comic showcases how much more work the artist had to put in. With a Feldstein EC Comic the artist got a very detailed description on top of the panel and he just had to fill in the blanks. With a Marvel Comic the artist had to decide exactly where all the action would go and sequence the whole story in a way that made it very easy for Stan to put in the dialogue. This was a real injustice but I can't call it stealing. Stealing would be if a check was made out to Wally Wood and Stan crossed out his name and wrote Stan Lee on the check. If being underpaid and under compensated for the work provided is stealing I think half of America could say they were stolen from when you see CEO pay compared to the average worker. Another point is that Stan Lee was editor in chief and not the owner. Martin Goodman made final decisions on salary even though I'm sure Stan had a lot of influence. I agree with Prince Namor that Stan had a lot to answer for and took way more credit than he deserved. All of these characters were co creations and Stan should have been more forthcoming particularly when the movies started and so many non comic book people were paying attention. I was particularly annoyed when he got his Hollywood Walk of Fame footprint and gave a speech without mentioning Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko at all. Without these two he would never have gotten there. Stan did better when pressed by comic book people but totally failed to give credit when he was interviewed by news people who didn't know the comic industry. Now my big disagreement with Prince Namor is on Stan's contribution to the comics themselves. In my opinion the best Marvel Comics ever done were Spider-Man 31-33 and Fantastic Four 48-51. Other great comics were Daredevil 7, Avengers 9, and Captain America 110, 111, and 113. These were drawn by Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Wally Wood, Don Heck, and Jim Steranko. Guess whose name is attached to all of them Stan Lee. He must be the luckiest guy in the world if he was just riding on all of these artists coat tails and wasn't a crucial element of their success. Many people have extolled the writing abilities of Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko but not so much the other three mentioned. I also love Daredevil 1-20 which was helmed by four different artists but I loved the stories in all of them. This is why I think Stan was the most important person in Marvel's success in the sixties. He humanized the characters in a way that Kirby and Ditko couldn't and in my opinion that made all of the difference. I have read all of the fourth world Kirby DC Comics and The Question, Blue Beetle, Creeper and Hawk and Dove by Ditko. These were all perfectly acceptable comics but they never moved me the way the Stan Lee Marvel characters did. Again this is just my opinion. Many people think the New Gods were better than the Marvel books and they should express it but I just don't agree. My biggest point is that I'm able to separate Stan lee the man from Stan lee the writer. He was a big disappointment in some ways as a person but still an incredible writer whose stories will last for quite a while.

Let's look at two things that helped Marvel's marketing and branding. Look at the cover difference between Spider-Man 1 and 2. If you are a first time reader of Spider-Man you don't get much information on who publishes it with Spider-Man 1. There is a little box with the letters Mc in it which could signify anything. Now look at Spider-Man 2 which clearly shows Spider-Man's picture on the left side with Marvel Comics Group underneath it. Steve Ditko created this box and soon it was on every Marvel Comic. Now you could place every comic you saw as a Marvel Comic and if you liked Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four you could pick up Tales To Astonish/Suspense etc. and know that the same company put them out. This was branding at it's best. Another reason Marvel caught on was the letters pages. Stan took the time to write witty responses to all of the fans who wrote in. If you notice he really highlighted older readers and female readers when they wrote in because he was trying to make Marvel Comics appeal to everybody. As Marvel grew in stature he even took on some serious issues in the letters pages because fans were growing up and the sixties were starting to happen. He created a real family atmosphere and took on a parental role with kids and teenagers who wrote in. One of my favorites was when he wrote it's summertime get out of the house but of course take our mags with you when you do. Marvel Comics became beloved for many different reasons and the amazing talents of Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and Jack Kirby. You can argue who was most important but it can't be denied that combining these three talents with all of the other creators during this time period created something special which is why I'm writing this at the age of 63 even though I wasn't old enough to buy these comics till the mid sixties or old enough to really understand them till many years later.

Great great post Bookery. While I disagree with your estimation of Stan Lee's writing talent everything else was spot on. Personally I feel he was one of the greats in comics history. It's rare to see such sustained logic in an internet post. Bravo!!!

This is an interesting topic. I agree with Vintage Comics that as long as you do it respectfully there's nothing wrong with making a lower offer or asking for a better price. Comic collecting is fun particularly in the old days when most people were truly in it for the enjoyment and not for making a profit. The reason I find it interesting is that like KCO Comics I have totally changed over the years. When I was a kid attending the New York Cons in the Seventies I haggled over everything. My thought was I could always pay full price if my offer is turned down so why not try to get a better deal. Now that I'm in my sixties I almost never haggle about anything. It just isn't worth it to me. If the dealer has a reasonable price I'd rather just buy it than haggle even if I could have gotten it cheaper. If a book is overpriced I don't complain I just move on to the next dealer. I still think that haggling is perfectly acceptable. I just don't feel like doing it anymore. I'm curious if other people have changed like I have or are still the same after collecting for decades.

Keep in mind that 95 percent of all exhibitors at a con are professional dealers. On Ebay many collectors are selling things cheaper because they aren't doing it for a living. Plus there is a form of price fixing in that if somebody is selling something at a big discount a dealer will probably buy it before the show starts and the general public gets in. In the old days at cons there were more people just selling their collections in a one shot deal. Now the same people sell at show after show which makes getting bargains more difficult. There are exceptions for the kind of obscure books that Robot Man loves since many mainstream dealers will put some stuff in boxes that they don't really know how rare or scarce it is. However finding a super bargain at a show for a Hulk 181 or Spider-Man 129 is few and far between.

I remember Roger and his stores very well. For decades he had a store on 14th street between 7th and 8th avenue and you had to walk upstairs to get into it. As soon as you walked in there was an old beat up couch inside the store. I asked him one day why he had the couch in the store. He said that when he first opened adults could rest on the couch while their kids browsed through the boxes of comics. Now twenty years later with the demographic changes in who bought old comics the reversed happened. Now he said the kids rest on the couch while their parents look through the boxes and buy old comics. He moved the store to 6th Avenue near 9th street but I'm pretty sure that store closed years ago. He was an old time comics guy who had a cool personality and his type of store is definitely missed.

That's a great anecdote Book Guy. Bob was never cheap when selling comics. You could say he was somewhere between reasonable and Rogofsky. He would get a sale out of me if he was closer to reasonable.

Very sad news. Many Bay Area fans went to all of his stores and bought comics from him at many conventions throughout the Seventies and Eighties. I particularly remember when he opened a store at Pier 39 in the late Seventies. I was shocked that a comic store could afford the rent at all. Bob pulled out all of the stops and had an amazing selection of vintage Golden Age comics, original art and memorabilia. I remember he had five uncirculated copies of the first Overstreet Price Guide in white for about $75 each. I wish I had bought one but I passed. The store didn't last long probably because of the high rents but it was amazing while it was open. He definitely was one of the more controversial people from fandom's golden age but now we should just focus on the good things he did and remember him as someone who loved comics and helped many people improve their collections over the years.

This is an apples to oranges comparison. Alex Ross is a fine fine artist worthy of respect for his great drawings. Jack Kirby on the other hand has co created more iconic comic book characters than anybody else times twenty. There have been many great artists in the comics field but truly only one Jack Kirby.

I'll go with the first one Green Lantern 16.

If they wholesale out their whole inventory this would be the end of an era. On the other hand if they just close the warehouse and keep selling comics it would be like the old days seeing their ads in the Buyers Guide and doing mail order from them.

Thanks for writing this Unca Ben. I agree with virtually all of the points you made. The biggest problem in these debates is people taking their opinions and saying they are facts. I love Stan's writing and think that he is the main reason Marvel was this successful in the sixties. He could get you into the characters heads in ways that neither Kirby or Ditko could in their dialogue without Stan. They could never really get inside the character and create the sense that you were Matt Murdoch, Peter Parker or Tony Stark. Now having said that let me reiterate it is my opinion not fact. Many people love Kirby's dialogue in New Gods etc. and prefer it to Stan's. That's fine it's their opinion and they should express it. However the problem develops when they try to say their opinion is right and everybody else is wrong. Stan created the whole feeling of Marvel as a place that really cared about the reader and treated him/her as adults when they wrote letters. The letters page and bulletin page were just as important to creating the Marvel family feeling as the great comics were. You truly got the sense that Stan was directly talking to you and not at you in these pages. I love Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby. Spider-man and Fantastic Four could not have been nearly as successful with anybody else doing the plotting and artwork. This was truly an amazing collaboration and should be seen as such but in my opinion Stan's ability to make you feel for the characters is what made Marvel special. Now having praised Stan I will criticize his willingness to take all of the credit when obviously all of these great characters were co created with the artists. Both Ditko and Kirby deserved extra money for plotting out these stories. They were both comic geniuses and should be given plotting credit for all of their stories. The "Marvel Method" was a total rip off to these artists who had to plot out the stories as well as draw them. Just as an example compare the Al Feldstein EC stories that were given to the artist fully written and all the artist had to do was draw what was in Feldstein's descriptive captions. For Daredevil Wally Wood had to create a whole story as well as draw it. He resented it and quit fairly soon. He was right that he wasn't properly compensated for the plotting as well as the drawing. However this method was the only way that Stan could dialogue so many stories each month and stay sane. Now having said this I disagree with people who say that this plotting meant that they wrote most of the story. It's the words that Stan wrote that brought these characters to life and he was the most important reason they were such great comics. That's my take on it and once again I will add that this is my opinion and not represented as fact.

I never went to any of 's stores but I had a few comics that had his date stamp on the splash page during the Seventies.

Congrats Robot Man for finding these premiums you've been searching decades for. A great day of collecting for you.

Thanks for sharing all of this hard earned good advice. I hope your shows continue to do well in the future. The hobby needs more of these kind of small shows run by people who care about comics.

Thanks for the Bay Con picture Aardvark88. My brother and I are in the center with our table next to the artists Al Gordon and Ken Macklin. I was 17 and he was 20 and we were selling off the collection we had accumulated in New York from the late 60's to the mid Seventies. At that show we sold our FF1 for $500 our Spider-Man 1 for $300 and our Amazing fantasy 15 for $200. As was the custom in those days all three had tape on the spine as we felt that they would last longer with tape and nobody considered that a deal breaker in those days. Shows were a lot more fun then because at least a third of the people would be guys selling off their collections as opposed to now where nearly everybody is a professional dealer.

Two great copies of Spider-Man 8. I would go with copy B with the great colors. However you can't go wrong with either book.

What a sad and ironic state of affairs that you can't find back issue comics in New York City. When my friends and I were searching for comics in the late sixties early seventies in New York you had to find used bookstores antiques stores and an occasional old record store to find comics. By the late seventies there were multiple places to find old comics as comic stores multiplied in most Manhattan neighborhoods. Now 50 years later you can once again only find new comics even at comic book stores without a back issue in sight. Not to get political but we've definitely lost part of our soul lately. Who wants to live in a society where mom and pop stores can't survive and every new store opening seems to be a bank or a restaurant? Tough times indeed!

I never went to either place you mentioned. I left Santa Cruz for San Francisco in 1978. The only comic shop for years was Cymbaline Records and Comics. In 1976 Atlantis opened and there still going 47 years later.

I remember walking around the corner from Sidebottom's to get to Comics and Comix. They were definitely open before 1979 because I remember them having stacks and stacks of Peter Parker #1 which I think came out in 1976 or so. In my mind it was less than a two block walk but it could have been longer since it was so long ago. I lived in Santa Cruz so I never went to the De Anza college flea market. We had a good one in Santa Cruz during the seventies and occasionally you'd find something worthwhile there.

Great memories in this thread. Sidebottom absolutely hated kids. My brother and I were teenagers when we first went to his shop in the mid seventies. He just grunted at us if we dared to ask a question about something that we couldn't find on the shelves. When we graduated into our twenties he softened up a bit but just a little. This was a cool time to be a comic collector in the Bay Area. Right around the corner from Sidebottom was Comics and Comix plus at least two other stores sold old comics within two blocks. Then in San Francisco you had three stores that sold old comics within two miles of each other in the Sunset District by the late seventies. Hard to hold on to your money in those days because there was so many things you could buy.

This was one of the best sales threads ever. Every book was sold at a reasonable price. There was enough notice that if you really wanted one of these you had a decent chance to get it. This thread may start a new trend of one book at a time.