drotto

 

The biggest barrier not too many people discuss about with collectibles being investments and comparing them to the stock market is...

 

1) VALUE

 

A) With stocks, generally you can go online or to your broker, look at the buy/sell price and know the value. What people are asking, so you can buy at that price. What people are offering,so you can sell at that price.

 

The spread between the value price and the offer price usually isn't that wide, so, for example, right now AMAZON stock has a Bid Price of $649.94 for which you can sell it or right now, and an Ask Price of $650.50 for which you can buy it for right now.

 

B) With comics, there's price guides. The guide is a reference too, often not so accurate. It's not a catalog you can order from. It's not an offer sheet you can sell off of. You can go online to the CGC GPA or eBay "completed/sold" or any auction house's website to see historical precedent of sales figures, but you'll find wide ranges, so it's rather vague at times

 

The spread with comics is all over the map. Just because you see a book at a comic shop, convention or online with a price tag, does not mean that is the value. It's the sales price for which they are "asking" but the fact of the matter is it remains unsold as you see it in front of you, so it's somewhat clear that it's not the value, otherwise it would be sold. So, the "Bid Price" would be the price you could sell it for, and most dealers/resellers offer fractional amounts to their "Ask Price"

 

 

2) SELLING

 

A) With stocks, once you decide to sell, you can pull the trigger with your broker on most stocks (sans penny stocks on the sheets) and your sale will be complete within the day if you're willing to accept the stated market value.

 

If you have hundreds of positions and thousands of shares, it doesn't matter how many you have, you can generate revenue very quickly.

 

If you have junk stock that's fallen out of favor but still is listed and has value, you can sell it. There's no prejudice nor humming and hawing by the buyers trying to negotiate you down.

 

 

B) With comics, once you decide to sell, you'll have to find a buyer. Sure, you can dump product to get it snatched up quickly or sell at a discount to a dealer, but that's not actualizing maximum value nor profits (or often times losses).

 

If you have a collection of comic books, and you want to sell them to buy a house, therefore maximize your profits, you'll have to take a lot of time to sell each book one by one yourself, it's a laborious process. You not only have to wait and find the buyer, but if you sell on eBay for example, you need to take photos, write the listing and fulfill the product. If you are in liquidation mode, you'll fastly find out just how bad an investment collectibles can be if you need to sell everything, the trash with the treasure.

 

If you have books that went from cover price to dollar or quarter bin at the stores and you try to sell 'em to the stores, some will flat out reject buying them (dead inventory takes space, space equals rent, rent is an overhead cost) or offer you pennies on the dollar for which you paid, by the bulk like $0.10 each or $20 for a long box. Some will flat out refuse even for free ('tho you can donate 'em or give them away rather easily, but for this discussion about "Investing" it's not applicable an option to essentially throw an asset away)

 

 

3) TAXATION

 

A) With stocks, you have capital gains and losses, so if you pull out short there's a peripheral benefit of a tax write off. If you have a portfolio, it's easy to transfer those assets to your heirs in the event of your passing.

 

B) With comics, if you take a bath on a book, you can't write it off, but in the same breath if you gain, you don't have to pay taxes on that, so long as it's hobby income and not scaled to a level where it's considered a business, then it's just like stocks to a degree, just a lot more paperwork to keep track of each transaction's acquisition cost and sales revenue.

 

Imagine yourself as a passionate collector with a huge collection in the sunset of their lives. When you want to sell off your collection with a huge value, you're going to have to figure out how to report that income. If you happen to not want to deal with it and is that proverbial winner, "the guy who dies with the most toys" and leaves your valued collection to a spouse or heirs who don't/didn't share the same passion and now need to liquidate, it becomes their burden. Not quite as bad as leaving a time share property in your will as a financial albatross, but you'd potentially turn over in your grave if your heirs saw your treasure as trash and dumped it or sold 'em off to an unscrupulous dealer offering fractional valued payouts, plus they'll have to deal with the capital gains.

 

 

4) STORAGE

 

A) With stocks, you don't typically hold your certificates, so it's held for you securely, shy of a technical fiasco, it's resistant to theft or damage. It's organized and easy to see what you have.

 

B) With comics and collectibles, you have to store your assets. Make room for them and put them in a safe environment to maintain the condition and organization. The bigger your collection gets, the more irritating it can be. If you have a small home and a family, it competes for space which would generally be assigned for necessities. It's exposed for theft or damage. If you want to insure it, that's another policy and fee you need to pay for. If you rent a storage locker, that's also overhead.

 

If you collect toys, action figures and statues, you'll probably be in worst shape in the future since they're so condition sensitive and often bulky, taking up room to store as well. I speak from the experience of having a garage full of $15 priced retail action figures that I see selling/offered with a $3 price tag and no buyers, and my ego is keeping me from taking a huge loss, for which I'd be better off donating them for a tax write off than putting forth the efforts to sell them one by one.

 

So, as you think of your comic book collection as your 401K or part of your investment portfolio, remember and keep in mind just how difficult it can be to turn your assets into cash when you need it.

 

Good stuff. I was thinking along the same lines when I wrote this:

 

Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

 

B) With comics, if you take a bath on a book, you can't write it off, but in the same breath if you gain, you don't have to pay taxes on that, so long as it's hobby income and not scaled to a level where it's considered a business, then it's just like stocks to a degree, just a lot more paperwork to keep track of each transaction's acquisition cost and sales revenue.

 

 

Is this true? If you make a profit on a book you don't have to pay taxes on it? can anyone explain this?

 

You are suppose to report all income to the IRS:

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11658852/ns/business-answer_desk/t/do-i-have-pay-tax-stuff-i-sell-ebay/#.VmtwMCCrRhE

 

In practice, however, few people do with regards to private sales. Supposedly, if you report it and it truly is a hobby, that is accounted for in the tax code. But, you cannot make a profit on the sale in order for it to be a hobby.

Technically collectible profits are taxable at a 28% rate in the USA. You are allowed to deduct initial purchase price as well as an work done to the item from that profit. For example, you buy a comic for $1000, spend $500 to restore it, and $60 to grade and slab it. You then sell the comic for $3000. You are allowed to report $1440 (profit after subtracting purchase, grading, and restoration) in profit, which is then taxed at 28%.

This could be a hot dog or a cold wiener, but I think the Campbell variant for Gwenpool will go up (although the print run may be huge). I think the Ferry variant also may have legs, but they are already $18, or $11ish of you buy ten. I'm not buying multiple of either, but I think I will get one of each.

 

Print run is WAY HIGH BRO. Long enough to see this on Midtown's shelf when I travel there, once every 2 years.

 

Very few Midtown variants have risen in value.

 

Uncanny X-Force #1 Campbell sells for $5.00 over original price.

 

But at the same time, the exact same cover without the Midtown stamp sells for closer to $50. (or at least was a few months ago... haven't checked in a while)

 

I don't know if there's a significant difference in print run, as the non-Midtown version was a ratio variant, but either way... exact same cover, one that's got the Midtown stamp & one without it and with the Marvel box moved to a different corner sells for substantially different prices.

I have a friend who purchased the right to have an official Marvel store variant printed. Marvel makes you buy a significant number of books to do a run. I feel it is a safe bet most ratio variants have lower numbers than store variants.

I love how 80 and 90's comic art the girls costumes were impractical with skimpy outfits and spiked heels. They have nothing on the GA girls doing it is full length gowns and spike heels.

This could be a hot dog or a cold wiener, but I think the Campbell variant for Gwenpool will go up (although the print run may be huge). I think the Ferry variant also may have legs, but they are already $18, or $11ish of you buy ten. I'm not buying multiple of either, but I think I will get one of each.

 

Print run is WAY HIGH BRO. Long enough to see this on Midtown's shelf when I travel there, once every 2 years.

 

Very few Midtown variants have risen in value.

 

I do think regional releases, those LCS variants are generally a bit more niche. Sure, they're priced higher than the normal comics, but as far as general hobby respect, they seem to be a bit less sought after. They feel like reprints and manufactured collectibles that a store commissions an artist to do, and places an order with Marvel to make all in the name of creating a demand for a limited edition, where traditionally there's more of a chase for variants or the old school way where a comic is printed, goes out of print, later becomes popular, then sought after.

And this has been proven over time to be the comics which hold value and even increase. NYX 3 is the perfect modern example. Low print run, no variants, and character popularity grow slowly over time was not forced. Will maintain value in my estimation.

I'm new to this thread.

 

My bottom line is, I love the Green Arrow #47 variant cover.

 

I bought a black unopened bagged edition of the comic, opened it and did find that cover, in color.

 

Is that all of the fanfare?

 

Someone mentioned to me at the store that maybe for that cover, other variants existed.

 

I'm not interested in chasing original sketch covers per se.

 

What I am interested in, is if there's variations of this Tim Sale cover. Whether it's in B&W, a "Sketch Variant", or anything besides the color one I have.

 

Does anyone know more info.

 

Thanks!

Basically for each polybagged variant there is one cover. That cover will come in one of three flavors: color, inked, or sketch variety. For each polybag you have a small chance of getting an original art on a blank cover variant that is an exclusive variant. That blank cover was basically only printed once for that sketch which will "prove" its authenticity.

This could be a hot dog or a cold wiener, but I think the Campbell variant for Gwenpool will go up (although the print run may be huge). I think the Ferry variant also may have legs, but they are already $18, or $11ish of you buy ten. I'm not buying multiple of either, but I think I will get one of each.

 

Print run is WAY HIGH BRO. Long enough to see this on Midtown's shelf when I travel there, once every 2 years.

 

Very few Midtown variants have risen in value.

With very very rare exceptions store variants have little speculative value.

Gotta agree with GeeksAreMyPeeps here. An income stream is not at all a requirement of something being considered an investment. Am I speculating if I buy shares of Twitter or Netflix or Facebook or any other multitude of growth stocks that don't pay a dividend?

 

If you believe in the outlook of the company and you are holding the shares for long-term capital appreciation then that absolutely is an investment.

You can invest in comic books it does work, but unlike what everyone though in the 90's (that every book was going to be magically valuable) is where people get caught. If you are buying high grade keys, they can be a good investment. Look at the explosion in value of things like Action Comics 1, AM15, etc. There is money to be made, but like most things you generally have to spend money to make money. If you are trying to flip variant covers, and speculating on what book may get hot due to a movie or TV deal you are going to get screwed

With all the money people are spending on sealed polybags looking for NM copies of the sketch/ink/color covers, wouldn't it make sense instead to just buy the unbagged NM comic off Ebay....?

 

 

 

The issue is that there are so many bad issues that 9.6's and up may not even exist for this comic. Plus, it looks really bad for DC. People are buying this issue for the cover, and to collect the cover. People are not buying the polybagged version to read. So, we are taking a shoot at what version we get, plus have a greater than 50% chance that the issue out of the bag lacks appeal.

 

I know it is a easily damaged paper product, and there is always some spoilage. With that said that vast majority of the comics should hit the stands at a 9.4 or higher. With any product, when you buy a new product it should look new. These look like . In addition, all DC's normal issues look good, and do not have the problem. Where was quality control on this?

 

I doubt DC cares. They sold out. Return ability would be the question I would be asking. Maybe if enough retailers complain they will do something about it.

I would think after Convergence they might be more friendly, but this book is so hot currently I still doubt they do anything.

 

Maybe a retailer can shed some light.

 

I'll bite...

DC had a fabulous concept that was trashed by a poly-bagging machine.

 

Having received a "tip" about the OA I ordered a TON.

 

I called in all my damages to Diamond.

I was refunded.

As would any shop that receives unsalable comics.

 

Unsalable = Trashed.

A tiny blemish is perfectly salable.

( Not to the cult sect on the CGC boards )

That is why I said the comics must look new not perfect. When I buy at my LCS, I understand that issue may not be perfect, and will occasionally see some dings, color rubs, etc. If I am buying a special variant cover however, I hold those covers to a higher standard then something I have purchased to read.

With all the money people are spending on sealed polybags looking for NM copies of the sketch/ink/color covers, wouldn't it make sense instead to just buy the unbagged NM comic off Ebay....?

 

 

The issue is that there are so many bad issues that 9.6's and up may not even exist for this comic. Plus, it looks really bad for DC. People are buying this issue for the cover, and to collect the cover. People are not buying the polybagged version to read. So, we are taking a shoot at what version we get, plus have a greater than 50% chance that the issue out of the bag lacks appeal.

I know it is a easily damaged paper product, and there is always some spoilage. With that said that vast majority of the comics should hit the stands at a 9.4 or higher. With any product, when you buy a new product it should look new. These look like . In addition, all DC's normal issues look good, and do not have the problem. Where was quality control on this?

I passed on my LCS copies today. The spines did not feel as bad as those pictured here, but there were clearly issues when I felt the spines.

Has DC acknowledge the issue?

Just back from CGC:

 

For me you shouldn't have!!!

Wow nothing like sending books out as 8.0. That really stinks, my variant from last week's is not perfect, but it would get a 9.4 or an outside 9.6.

I had to buy 9 copies to get 9.2's of the 3 different Harley's.

 

There is one copy, perfect spine, and a fold on the top right from the bagging process.

 

9.8's for these books will be rare rare rare.

Mine has the slight crease on the upper staple, and the poly bag indent down the back. Otherwise it is perfect.

Wow nothing like sending books out as 8.0. That really stinks, my variant from last week's is not perfect, but it would get a 9.4 or an outside 9.6.

Any chance the sketches are more durable? I have an old sketch from DC where they basically stapled a stiff Bristol board type paper over the real cover. That second white cover is very stiff.

So you thought the Harleys were bad condition ....these Batman books are atrocious!

Any pictures of what you are seeing? I know you may not be allowed prior to release. Also any way to "see" the damage with the bag in place?

For the record, this isn't the 1st JSC Harley cover.

 

There is a Danger Girl Batman crossover where Harley is on the cover

 

http://dangergirl.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/8/1/208188/451317_orig.jpg

 

Well for the record it is a JSC Cover for Harley on a title with her name on it. not an out of continuity cross over.

 

And this is a Harley cover, not a cover Harley just happens to be tucked in the corner on. The variant is just too common to have much value, except if there is 9.8 value with the apparent defect. I think there is significant value in the OA copied still.

\

 

I'm happy with ten dollar bills.

I know that's below most of you.

 

So, I apologize in advance for wasting your valuable time.

 

( Clearly.

Print runs are meaningless when involving Harley or Deadpool. Please see New Mutants 98 with close to a million copies in circulation )_

Please let the book explode. I got a fairly clean copy, likely a 9.6. It has the defect but seems less than many are reporting.

For the record, this isn't the 1st JSC Harley cover.

 

There is a Danger Girl Batman crossover where Harley is on the cover

 

http://dangergirl.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/8/1/208188/451317_orig.jpg

 

Well for the record it is a JSC Cover for Harley on a title with her name on it. not an out of continuity cross over.

And this is a Harley cover, not a cover Harley just happens to be tucked in the corner on. The variant is just too common to have much value, except if there is 9.8 value with the apparent defect. I think there is significant value in the OA copied still.

Is there any reference pictures for these fiction house comics? With all the color variation I would love to know what the publisher originally intended. Plus, I love the Planet covers.

One last big though that I have not seen discussed here about why Marvel has been so successful, and what may hold BvS back. It may be the Disney influence, and just the look and presentation of the movies, but Marvel has created a new generation of fans. These movies have become family movies. I look at my own kids, their friends, I go to their school, and I see Marvel t shirts, backpacks, etc. The kids know when the next Marvel movie is coming out months in advance. They have seen the trailers, and keep up on the hype. It used to be I could see a Marvel superhero movie and leave the kids at home, if I did that now they get pissed. Based on my observations kids care way more about Marvel then DC right now. That drives families and numbers to the movies. It leads to repeat screenings and big numbers.

I have not seen the kids I am exposed to daily (and I have a job where I meet lots of people), talking about DC. My kids and my friends' kids have seen the recent DC movies in much lower numbers. They have all seen every Marvel movie. If BvS wants to reach Avenger numbers they need those kids and those families, not just the people on these boards and the 20 and 30 somethings. I have yet seen anything from BvS that seems to be pulling in the kids and families. The darker tone, and gritty look is a much harder sell to that demographic. If the DC universe wants to explode they need those numbers, like it or not. That is the big reason I do not see BvS hitting Avengers numbers.

My main point is this movie needs to be the Iron Man Part 1 of the DC movie universe to set-up the others.

 

They've missed too many opportunities to let this one pass again. They have a limited amount of time to capitalize on Marvel's success and I think there is probably strong behind the scenes pressure to compete with Civil War, so they don't have the luxury of time to start from scratch.

 

It's actually a brilliant move on DC's part.

 

1) They're bringing together their 3 best characters into one film which is instant fan base

2) bringing in Doomsday capitalizes on the crowd that were buying comics in the 90's - probably fandom's biggest market right now as they majority with the nostalgic attachment will be in their 30's with money to spend

3) they're riding on Marvel's coat tails and bringing an alternative on the Marvel Civil War conflict - something Marvel has already set the stage for.

 

It's just good business.

 

It would be bad business IMO to ignore what your main competitor is doing and start from scratch like they don't exist. As I said, they don't really have that option.

 

And as far as future stories go, you can have spin off solo stories (both young and old Batman), Superman and WW spin offs, JLA, Justice Society - anything you want.

 

DC had to go big or go home at this point. That's the way I see it.

I agree it was what DC needed to do at this point. They are behind Marvel if you view it as a competition. I am not sure they can catch up from that perspective. What Marvel has managed to do is amazing, especially when you consider they did it with lesser know and often b or c list characters. DC should have a massive leg up with the much higher name and pulp culture status of there three main characters. That has not however translated to the big screen yet.

I actual do not view this as a competition like many seem too however, good comic movies all around pull up all comic movies. The comic movie bubble will burst when the quality of the films starts to falter regardless of what studio put the movie out. DC is taking a massive risk here. By bringing out all their big guns in one film, if it fails to meet expectations they are screwed. I am not exactly sure where the bar sits right now though. If the bar is Avengers level, I do not see them making it. If the bar is a well received strong movie grossing between 800 mil to 1 bil worldwide, that is very doable.

yea but sometimes one mistake they can't come back from when this is such a huge movie for the other movies going forward.

 

This movie will break $1BIL.

 

 

It may, but will still be well behind: Avartar, Harry Potter, Jurassic World, Star Wars the force Awakens (which is going to crush everything), Avengers, and many others. It will do well but not hit the stratosphere. Man of Steel grossed $291,045,518 domestic and $377,000,000 foreign. I see BvS doing better than that, but I predict (yes just a prediction) about 400 mil domestic, and 500 mil foreign coming in just shy of 1 bil.

 

I don't understand your point.

 

I was replying to SPECTRE_nWo / SOT / I need a new name every week / John-who-can't-tell-a-good-movie-from-bad-one that this movie won't be a flop.

 

MoS made nearly $700K - so it was a success, yes? What all of those other movies have to do with this discussion I have no idea.

 

I am viewing BvS as more a a sequel to MoS as opposed to a stand alone movie. It has the same director, and a good portion of the same cast with obvious additions. Someone posited that this movie would clear 1 bil. I countered with a box office based off MoS totals, adjusting upward because it is but at the same time is not a squeal to MoS. My post implies the movie will do very well, but I do not believe it will reach the levels that the Avenger movies have based on past DC movie performance.

yea but sometimes one mistake they can't come back from when this is such a huge movie for the other movies going forward.

 

This movie will break $1BIL.

 

It may, but will still be well behind: Avartar, Harry Potter, Jurassic World, Star Wars the force Awakens (which is going to crush everything), Avengers, and many others. It will do well but not hit the stratosphere. Man of Steel grossed $291,045,518 domestic and $377,000,000 foreign. I see BvS doing better than that, but I predict (yes just a prediction) about 400 mil domestic, and 500 mil foreign coming in just shy of 1 bil.

And look at the price point for some of the Campbell spidy variants, and some of the AH stuff. That is why my gut tells me that cover could be worth big bucks.

Thanks for the links . $160 a page . incredible prices .

I wounder if I ripped apart my 0.5 copy and pieced it out would it be worth more?

I kid, I would never destroy a complete copy of AM 15.

Guess what!!! Slabbing has no impact on the OA books. That Campbell one is great, and also worth several thousand. The winner just hit the scratch off ticket of comic books.

 

where are you getting your numbers from? several thousand seems like a lot since I can get an OA sketch done and a con for about several thousand less....

 

That stupid Vader Down variant is getting $3000 plus, and you are going to tell me that somebody out there will not pay a stupid amount of money for a comic that will have a pedigree like this one? I really think the winner could get several thousand dollars. I have no actual numbers, just a bet.

 

I'm not saying it wont. i'm just skeptical. Anything is possible. But, paying that much for a book that can be replicated on any blank cover for thousands less seems silly.

Since when are people that spend 3000 on ugly variants logical?