Get Marwood & I

I've just upgraded myself actually

Is that your house on the left?

Are you saying one delivery at your shop, comprising the 'usual' UKPV Marvels and the late Gold Star stamped ones Albert?

Changing tack just for a second, I have been saving online images of T&P stamped Dell's for a long time now. Every time I see one, I save it. See it - save it - sort it. That sounds familiar. And all I have to show for it is this lot: Sixty three examples ranging from the middle of 1962 to early 1966 cover dates. The numbers include quite a few multiples of the same issue too. That's not many examples to show for the best part of four years is it. There aren't that many copies in my files with non-T&P UK distribution evidence either. We're quite focussed on Marvel and DC as you would expect, but I find some of the other publishers just as intriguing, if not more so. Miller and T&P sharing Archie for example. The Miller only Harveys and IWs. And the single solitary T&P Gold Key: I do like that one. One thing I am getting a strong feeling for, in all my research endeavours, is just how few examples exist now of comics from the early sixties that were imported to the UK either as stamped cents or UKPVs. Especially for the lesser publishers which in some cases are now bordering on non-existent. I own so many comics now which fit into the 'only copy I've ever seen' bracket. None of them are worth anything mind, nor do I expect them ever to be, but they are ridiculously scarce and it's a shame to see them slowly drifting off to a point where one day no one will ever remember that they were even here. I can't wait to get back to actual live fairs, to see what more is out there - what I may have missed, or not been as focussed on, since the last time I was at one (coming up to two years now). Fingers crossed that the virus recovery continues.

It's something to do, isn't it Albert. It's one of the few things in life that I can immerse myself in and never tire of. I just love it, pottering around with comics. Indeed. I have so many different stamp types saved in the files. Some have enough surviving copies to indicate something systematic, others are just dotted about and may just be the work of one shop or outlet. I know what you mean about finding the same book - in my DC number sequencing work you had to be really careful not to include the same copy as representing multiples - this one went through three eBay sellers it seems...

Is there nothing that online cannot take over. Give me physical things Ganni. I want to hold them in my hands.

They're not overly prevalent now, based on the limited examples I've seen and gathered. Stamp 7 of the 13th cycle if Action Comics is anything to go by:

Yes, and also in general, whenever there were T&P stamped Marvels appearing while UKPVs were being produced.

Just digging through the files, reminding myself of stuff, and throwing things into the mix. Apart from the Marvel examples, I can only find Gold Star 10d stamps for two other publishers, Mighty Comics (Archie) and Charlton. I wonder how they find themselves in the mix? The numbers and dates of each are dependent on whether we agree that Gold Star were responsible for both stamp types prevalent in the Marvel groupings, namely: Or were there two distributors? Why price the same comic differently? Looking at the images for the three Kid Colts, not a single Gold Star example as expected, being out of scope for UKPVs by nature of their issue size... ...but loads of examples of UK / T&P distribution: So they either continued to be brought to the UK and distributed by T&P with no hiccup re the Marvel jitters, or something else was going on. Did we discuss and agree on how the Marvels with no UKPVs, but with cents stamped T&P copies, either came to be here in the first instance and whether we thought they were unsold US copies? @Malacoda Rich, you've read it all recently - save me the trouble would ya?

Your outness has been cemented, TripleB Current Uptown Top Rankings: Marwood's Sister - 54 minutes (I told you she was good) Marwood's Mum - One hour and 55 minutes Marwood's Mum Marwood's Sister

Morning Rich, just read it all again. You know me, I like a smoking gun, but in the absence of one your theory here - that the missing UKPV issues were directly related to T&P's troubles - certainly holds much more water (no ballast jokes) than the historic dock strike theory. When you look at all the books ongoing at the time... ... the obvious overriding pattern is the cessation of 2 issues for each title. So, like you say, the likelihood is that Marvel just got wind of the T&P financial troubles, stopped producing UKPVs (which they wouldn't have been able to sell in the US due to those weird hieroglyphic prices that scared the hell out of the locals) and made enquiries. As soon as it became clear that ongoing physical distribution wasn't at risk, up they started again. Any T&P stamped cents copies that we see for the non-UKPV bearing titles during the three months (Fantasy Masterpieces, MCIC) may have continued in the normal way (whatever that was) or come late. The above sounds eminently sensible and reasonable to me Rich and, as such, would be my go to explanation now if anyone were mad enough to enquire. I think the Gold Star position could do with more understanding, especially given that T&P stamped copies exist for the non-UKPV bearing titles during the window. I see the links you have made and, again, it makes complete sense that Marvel may have picked up the phone to see if Gold might be ready in the wings. But one aspect that doesn't sit right with me is as follows, if I've understood everything correctly (believe it or not, I have trouble digesting large bodies of other people's research that I have not myself lived through creating). Marvel produced cents copies for the US and UKPVs for the UK. In the main, around this time, that was the drill. So if Marvel decided to stop producing the UKPVs as a result of the jitters re T&P's abilities to distribute, then there would be no UKPVs but - presumably - no additional cents copies made. We know that the 10d stamped Gold Star cents copies exist, but the personal recollection evidence suggests that they arrived some time after when they should have, 6 months or so. Given that those 10d Gold Star stamped books exist before and after the UKPV hiatus, and also for other publishers (I have a Jan 65 stamped Charlton and an Apr 67 Tower for example) could it be that there was no direct overture to Gold at all and that he just picked up the missing comics in a one off bulk deal of unsold US copies covering many publishers, as he saw the clamour for them and saw an opportunity to make a buck while T&P were sleeping. Does that fly at all? I'm not sure it does actually. If the UKPV gaps were subsequently filled with cents copies, and 6 months later than would normally be planned, then why didn't the newly energised T&P distribute them with T&P stamps (as they seemed to be doing with the non-UKPV titles)? Why let Gold Star haver any piece of the pie at all? I am on board completely with the strike out / T&P troubles in argument now. But the Gold Star bit is still niggling. Probably wrongly though, but it keeps the debate going. Are we to assume that the Gold Star stamped copies were unsold US returns? Maybe that explains the six month delay. Anyway, a round of applause for Rich, guys, (not rich guys, who have far too much money as it is nowadays) and his work overlaying the history of Marvel, T&P etc from a contractual perspective

Oh, come on! That would be a stain on the reputation of this thread!

@Albert Tatlock Nice letter Albert - you might want to edit the post to remove your personal details. I winder if Mr G ever saw the letter. Possibly some secretary placed it in the round receptacle. I've written to quite a few comic people down the years. I always try to keep it brief, and not overload them with details. Very rare you get a response, but always worth a try.

You're probably right Tony, but I don't see it as a "what if" question. I asked CGC whether a big ugly UK price stamp would affect grade and they replied that it wouldn't as it was part of the natural distribution process. Some might disagree with that. I would expect a question along the lines of "do you downgrade for the type of spine fraying caused during manufacture during period X" also to have a yes or no answer - they can say "we don't, as it is a part of the manufacture process" or "we do" if they have (as this thread suggests) changed their stance and decided to grade what they see (colour breaking spine damage) rather than what they know (what caused it). Only one way to find out I guess - @Galen130 - crack on mate. It was your thread / question https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/forum/23-ask-cgc /

True, true. The 'what' we always seem to have - the 'when', not so much. And don't talk to me about The Who (get your jokes in now). That's why I liked the Operation Third Form research - pinning things that we know exist to an actual date on our shores. Thought that might have got more interest but there you go. All good fun, either way. And I reckon Kate is H

Maybe Gold got wind of everyone's dismay re the missing issues and nabbed a limited supply somehow from the US, hence the reduced numbers, after the event. I remember you saying how late the missing issues were now. That doesn't fit a theory that Gold was appointed to distribute at the time of T&Ps troubles does it. I need to revisit some things to refresh my memory I think. Will be back tomorrow at some point. Line of Duty's on in a minute and I need to make the tea.

I don't submit myself, was just interested. Why don't you give CGC a ring and see what they say? Or post in the 'Ask CGC' forum to see if the position has changed.

A bit more on that, my recollection was that pretty much every ASM I purchased new from the shop had that spine fraying for a period around the 500-600 issue range - example below: If that was the case - every copy was affected as it was part of the production process of the time - then it would be nigh on impossible for a 9.8, 9.9 etc to exist - and that would have killed the submission process, so CGC decided to give it a pass.

We did, yes. My point is I suppose, where is the impact on the DC arrivals? All issues around the time arrived, all have the sequentially numbered stamps. No evidence of any DC hiccup. Is that likely?

I may have this wrong Galen, but I always had it in my head that CGC gave this phenomenon a pass on moderns, citing it as a part of the production process. The argument went something along the lines that if they did take heed of it, then pretty much every modern manufactured that way would be downgraded and 9.8's etc would not be possible. I had that in my head because I recall disagreeing with it - colour breaking fraying clearly exists, and can't be ignored just because the paper used lends itself to that outcome in the binding process. I'll be interested to see if my memory serves, or whether I've got that completely wrong. But if CGC have made a policy change, and decided to stop ignoring it, then that may cause a ruction or two when people send previously highly graded books in for regarding I would imagine.

Nice Rich, thanks for mapping that all out. I'm going to read it a few times tomorrow when it's quiet and let the sediment settle. My gut is telling me it has things to say about the first reading, but my leaky brain has yet to catch up and decide what those things are. And further readings might answer those questions. That said, a snippet from a UK fanzine might interest you (can't recall if I posted it already) - dates too late to impact your theory, but interesting nonetheless: And some early thoughts while they swim in the mind. The 10d stamps that we believe to be Gold Star (as Albert first suggested if I recall correctly) exist for other publishers and some Marvel examples extend beyond the 3 month window under review here - examples below: How do we account for those, if UKPV's resumed so quickly? Let's take Sgt Fury as an example - two missing issues: 10d 'Gold Star' cents stamped copies duly materialise for #35 and 36: And then the UKPVs resume straight away: Is it likely that the T&P bankruptcy troubles would have impacted the production of UKPVs, led to the appointment of a different temporary UK distributor (Gold Star) and then gone straight back to formal UKPVs that quick do you think? And where is the evidence that the missing stamped issues actually came over sequentially during the break? Given the existence of other Gold Star stamps for other publishers, and later Marvels, how do we know that 'Mr Gold Star' didn't just buy up a load of unsold stock from the US and have a go at making a buck with them, potentially long after the events we're discussing? And if the issues at T&P were bad enough to result in the cessation of Marvels for a month or so, why don't we see a DC blip - T&P stamped cents copies appear to have been unaffected: Is that likely? Why weren't DC looking for an alternative distributor too? Maybe some of the answers to my initial comments will jump out on second reading tomorrow, let me know.... (Again, great work Rich)

Could've been from the boat. Or maybe Thorpe left the tap on.

Too long ago to remember if they were pence, cents or stamped I suppose. Be nice to go back and look with todays eyes wouldn’t it.

Cool. Buy any?