MasterChief

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

2 hours ago, MasterChief said:

I did a fair amount of research during that whole controversy. So much so, I was contacted privately by CGC and asked to provide my data to aid and abet their investigation. I sent what I had. Never asked how it helped and they never provided me with any follow-up. Bottom line, the father and son had been Wilson-izing books and creating "Facejobs" for some time. That episode is what got the son caught and shed new light on the Wilson Klan.

Any chance they might have really wanted your research so that they could hopefully gain some insight on how the whole process is done so that they could pass this information off to their partner CCS company?  

Companies absolutely hate it when their competitors can do a much better job than they themselves can.  

Edited 48 minutes ago by lou_fine

I suspect the information provided was used to facilitate several things. That being: (1) identifying the seller of the doctored books, (2) pinpointing the actual books worked on by way of the before and after CGC numbers and scanned images which would have led to (3) recalling the books so that the CGC experts could evaluate the work, make a determination as to how it was performed, and identifying the Facejob characteristics so that they wouldn't be caught up in a follow-on controversy.

On 11/3/2019 at 2:49 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

On 11/3/2019 at 1:05 PM, Chicago Boy said:

What’s the beef with Mark Wilson ?  Any supporters ??

Here's one short thread. I haven't purchased anything from Heritage since I found out that they had hired Wilson. I'll still throw in low-ball bids in hopes getting a bargain, but they are way down my list of potential sources now, just above Danny Dupcak and Jason Ewert.

ETA: The thread above makes reference to the reverse spine roll technique (shifting the spine and all of its defects to the fact cover in order to get a grade bump). I don't know the extent of Mark Wilson's involvement in that, if any. I believe eBay seller collectors_comics is Thomas Wilson.

 

I did a fair amount of research during that whole controversy. So much so, I was contacted privately by CGC and asked to provide my data to aid and abet their investigation. I sent what I had. Never asked how it helped and they never provided me with any follow-up. Bottom line, the father and son had been Wilson-izing books and creating "Facejobs" for some time. That episode is what got the son caught and shed new light on the Wilson Klan.

On 11/3/2019 at 12:57 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

On 11/3/2019 at 11:10 AM, comicjack said:

I have my doubts that really is a 7.0 

Well, it's Heritage, and Mark Wilson is there now. 'Nuff said.

Wait, Mark Wilson is working for Heritage now? When did that happen?

On 11/3/2019 at 1:02 PM, namisgr said:

While I'm not familiar with this particular collection, it sounds very similar to another one brought to market about 8-10 years ago, the Hollywood Hills collection.  It only had Marvel comics published from 1965-'68, and so fell far short of meriting pedigree status.  But the books were beautiful, with great structural grades, mostly white pages, and white cover stock front and back.  The collection was so nice that I actively looked for additional issues from it to buy after the collection was dispersed in the secondary market.

This was a Hollywood Hills comic I used to own - the others looked pretty much as great as this one, so you can see why collectors of high grade SA Marvels might want to seek out books from the collection, even if it didn't merit being declared a pedigree:

I remember that collection well, Bob. Brought to market by Mark Zaid and Jammie Newbold (Southern California Comics). Lots of great books. Wanted to pull the trigger on a few but by the time I got around to it they were gone. The back story is below. One of which I don't suspect as being just a yarn to sell books.

Hollywood Hills Collection
http://www.esquirecomics.com/index.php?page=pedigree&pedigree=173

Forty years ago, from late 1965 to early 1968, a young collector would purchase multiple copies of each issue of such titles as Amazing Spider-Man, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Tales of Suspense and X-Men. One copy would be read, and the others would be meticulously placed away for safe-keeping. Ultimately approximately 1,000 books were amassed, of which nearly 400 have been acquired by EsquireComics.com and Southern California Comics (about half of those have been CGC certified and the remaining books were retained by the owner's son for sale on eBay). The majority of the books fall within the 9.2 - 9.6 range, and often have pure white pages.

Although this collection is designated a "pedigree" on my site, it is just a "collection". In order to key the collection my website only recognizes "pedigree" designations. None of the books are marked or come with a certificate of authenticity, nor has the history of the collection impacted the prices.

On 11/2/2019 at 11:47 AM, slym2none said:

Had the OP shared his pics, we would have seen that much earlier. After I asked the second time in this thread, they PM'd me pics with the caveat that I was not allowed to share them, so I just deleted the conversation. IDK what they are trying to hide, as the pics seemed innocuous enough, but I thought people should know that.

That's odd. What's with all the secrecy, anyway? Certification is meant to be verified to confirm a book's description in CGC's database and prove the holder is genuine and not tampered with. 

On 11/2/2019 at 7:33 AM, Mercury Man said:

On 11/1/2019 at 9:47 AM, MasterChief said:

"these books remained un-touched"

What does that even mean.  How can they even claim that?  Seems like a silly way to say-  "these are really nice copies", but with an over the top dramatic flair. 

It's all carnival barker speak offered to collectors who love a story. The vagueness of the 'collection' story is intentional, IMO. I can understand to a certain point in keeping the original owners name undisclosed but that description begs so many other questions I don't know where to begin.

Darin Adams (Pristine Comics) is the same dealer who sold the CGC 9.0 "cedar chest" Action Comics #1 in 2014 for $3.2M. Great story behind that book too. But in the end, it was BS. The sale of the book even attracted major news organizations who reported on it. One such newspaper was the Washington Post. Their crack reporter basically regurgitated the marketing fairytale and issued a puff piece. The real story of the book was actually being discussed here on the boards where it was revealed to be a recycled CGC copy that started out as an 8.0 with glue on the cover, manipulated into an 8.5, and then eventually into a 9.0 by way of extensive dry cleaning.

For those interested, the WaPo article is below were the writer really "digs deep." It's followed by the board discussion with the real exclusive scoop.

Rare Superman book draws record $3.2 million top bid: The long, ‘cool’ journey of a record-setting comic

3 hours ago, Robot Man said:

Never heard of this collection. Any back story? Lists? What does it contain?

The Seattle Drugstore Collection was brought to market in 2012 by Darren Adams the owner of Pristine Comics. The advert for the collection is below followed by a copy of a certificate and an archived link to the collection where you should be able to see a few of the books:

The Seattle Drugstore Collection consists of a series of Marvel & DC comics from 1966 to 1971 in unread, near perfect condition!  During those years there was a drugstore employee & collector who was only interested in comic book covers & not the stories.  He set aside one of each issue before they were put up for sale on the newsstand.  Always being careful to remove an issue from the middle of the stack (for the best condition), these books remained un-touched until they were graded by CGC in early 2012.  All the comic books from this collection are in exceptional condition with perfect or near perfect gloss, pages & covers just like they were the day of release. Each comes with a certificate of authenticity that corresponds to the individual book's CGC certification number.

https://web.archive.org/web/20121224111037/http://www.pristinecomics.com:80/products/new-drug-store-collection

New scan up on Heritage. Good to see the "Wind City" pedigree attributed reclaiming its history and heritage.  

Marvel Comics #1 (Timely, 1939) CGC NM 9.4 Off-white pages

7 hours ago, comicdonna said:

I saw a pic of this book in the OA section.  The Heritage estimated auction plaque under the book said  $1,000,000

Thanks for the heads up, Mike. That is quite the variation in auction estimates.

So, the Heritage press release of September 27, 2019, asserts an estimate $2 Million +

Yet the book on display by Heritage at the NYCC, bearing the new pedigree label with the Windy City annotation, is advertised with a pre-auction estimate of $1M.

What am I missing?

As of September 26, 2019, Certification Information now reflects the Windy City pedigree designation.   

On 9/27/2019 at 2:16 PM, mosconi said:

On 9/27/2019 at 1:49 PM, MasterChief said:

Yup... appears a trip to the doctor was in order for this one. Here's the 411.

Amazing Spider-Man #1 Bethlehem Copy

Previous CGC 9.4 restored purple label. Certification number 0036906001.

Sold raw by Metropolis as NM- 9.2 for $6,000 in 2004. Described as cleaned and pressed, 2 tiny tear seals.

Sold on eBay as PLOD 9.4 for $12,000 on April 2, 2004.

Sold on eBay as PLOD 9.4 for $16,899 on April 3, 2005.

PLOD 9.4 certification number 0036906001 removed from CGC database (zeroed out).

Current certification number 1625297002, grade date 09/12/2019. (That date rings a bell... ) 

So from a Restored CGC 9.4 to Universal CGC 9.0.  What restoration was removed?  Did they tear the bottom right corner off too?

7 hours ago, Dark Knight said:

Must've been dry cleaning? I believe aqueous and definitely solvent would put it in a purple label.

Yes, apparently the tear seals were removed. The book, however, remains restored as it was cleaned by solvent or aqueous treatment method, which justifies CGC's original restoration determination of "cleaned and pressed." Thus, the properly assigned original purple label. Why the copy is currently graded as Universal is anyone's guess.

I have found additional information on the book. An excerpt from the April 2005 eBay auction description is below. The seller's copy is somewhat foretelling as to what would eventually become of the book.

"It is my understanding that the very small tear seals can be professionally undone, leaving only the cleaning and pressing as the least possible form of restoration done to this magnificent pedigree book. It is also my considered opinion that many books that have been cleaned and/or pressed have made it through the grading process without receiving the restoration label at all."

See the link below for full auction description. It's from rob_react's website It's All Just Comics, which is a great resource.

https://itsalljustcomics.com/2005/04/10/1483/

5 minutes ago, batman_fan said:

You know how they are masking the cover cleaned?  I thought that was non-reversible.  Thanks for giving the 411 on it and saving me a b-load of money, I won't be bidding 

Unfortunately, no. If I find additional info (currently looking) I'll post it.

On 9/26/2019 at 3:30 AM, batman_fan said:

On 9/25/2019 at 8:27 PM, mosconi said:

It's an interesting book and looks like it's been pressed at least a few times.  The back cover staples appear to have some very slight tears and the bottom right front corner has a small chip out.  Wonder if those defects have always been there?  Any photos of this book before it was re-holdered?

Definitely looks like it has gone through the treatment before. I would love to see some earlier images. 

Yup... appears a trip to the doctor was in order for this one. Here's the 411.

Amazing Spider-Man #1 Bethlehem Copy

Previous CGC 9.4 restored purple label. Certification number 0036906001.

Sold raw by Metropolis as NM- 9.2 for $6,000 in 2004. Described as cleaned and pressed, 2 tiny tear seals.

Sold on eBay as PLOD 9.4 for $12,000 on April 2, 2004.

Sold on eBay as PLOD 9.4 for $16,899 on April 3, 2005.

PLOD 9.4 certification number 0036906001 removed from CGC database (zeroed out).

Current certification number 1625297002, grade date 09/12/2019. (That date rings a bell... ) 

3 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

23 hours ago, tth2 said:

I'm a bit confused, then.  So when and where was this copy identified as the Windy City copy?  Only in discussions on these Boards? 

From MasterChef's very helpful timeline, it doesn't appear that it was ever identified as the Windy City copy by CGC or by Heritage in any auction listing. 

Gary C identified it as the Windy City and Jim Halprin told us that they’re having it added to the label as we speak

Great news! Thank you.  

Here's the Heritage press release announcing the White Rose Collection...

************* 

Press Release - December 30, 2002
Heritage to Auction the White Rose Collection in NYC
Sensational Timely Collection, other Selected Rarities, will be Offered in Separate Catalog

The buzz is true! In March of 2003, Heritage Comic Auctions will offer one of the nicest collections of Timely comic books ever to come to market. Special enough to merit a separate catalog, the White Rose Collection is replete with near-complete runs of the major Timely titles highlighted with some absolutely stunning individual high grade and pedigree copies. According to Heritage Comics Director of Auctions, John Petty, "This fabulous collection was accumulated by two extremely knowledgeable collectors during the 1980s, and none of these books have been offered for sale publicly or privately since that decade. Every one of them has been off the market for at least 14 years! Talk about a fresh collection - we've been besieged with requests regarding information on these books. The most dedicated Golden Age collectors know that this collection holds many of the prime pieces from the Timely mosaic."

Most major key issues are represented, and many are the highest graded copies certified by the third-party grading service Comics Guaranty Corporation.

(link to full press release)
 

12 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

It first came to market as from the white rose collection. Anyone connect it as Windy City copy then?

Here's more evidence that the book is in fact the Windy City copy.

Gary states in the below thread that he sold the book to the brothers who amassed the White Rose Collection, which Heritage liquidated in March of 2003 (Auction 806).

7 hours ago, rob_react said:

13 hours ago, MasterChief said:

I'm somewhat perplexed as to why the pedigree designation is not assigned to this book. 

Being a student of hobby history and fascinated by the story of a collections' origin, I'm particularly sensitive to maintaining a cohesive link to the nostalgic past through proper identification and labeling of pedigree copies thereby cementing comic book provenance.  

This book is the Windy City copy. It was identified as such by the founder of the collection, Gary Colabuono, in this particular thread. Additionally, the book is identified as being the Windy City copy on the Comic Book Pedigree website. (Link below)

Windy City

"Of the four pedigrees containing all #1 issues, this collection is by far the largest, numbering over 2,000 comics. It also covers one of the largest spans of time, running from the '30s through the '60s. Many of the most valuable key issues were present, including Marvel Comics #1, Captain America #1, Batman #1, Flash #1, Captain Marvel #1, All-Winners #1, Daring Mystery #1 and Whiz #1. The original owner Andy Wallace, an introverted postal worker who lived with his sister, wrote his name on nearly 1/4 of the comics. Gary Colabuono purchased the collection piecemeal over eight years, but initially sold them without a pedigree status, although he did make a detailed original list."

Marvel Comics #1 Windy City

I wonder if it's been asked for and denied or just was never asked for. I've heard that some Church copies have been designated as pedigree books without it being noted on the submission, but it would be tougher with something else. 

Even with something like this- you'd have to stumble on the knowledge. I never knew this book, which I've been following for 15 years, was the Windy City copy. I would contact Heritage (and I will if no one else wants to)

If I remember correctly, there have been many occasions over the years where CGC recognized a pedigree copy upon examination and grading then consequently assigned the appropriate designation absent the submitter's request. I would like to think that this book, given its physical characteristics and the overall limited supply of high-grade copies, would have triggered visual recognition and identification during grading.

If you have the time, please contact Heritage and let them know of the findings. I'm sure they would be delighted to have CGC assign the pedigree designation to the label. If there is doubt, they could contact Gary to confirm provenance. 

By the way, I just came across the website below, which is pretty cool. It is the sister site of the Comic Book Pedigree website. It also designates the subject book as the Windy City copy. According to the "About Us" page, Matt Nelson and Stephen Ritter, operate these websites. Some nice work on their part. Another great resource for consulting comparative images.  

Golden Age Top 4
http://www.top4comics.com/index.php

Marvel Comics #1
http://www.top4comics.com/showcase.php?issue=marvel