Zonker

Yes, they fixed it subsequently in reprints. Orion really couldn't have been anything but bald given the lines that Kirby drew. Maybe the bushy eyebrows in the last panel of pg 23 could have been turned into a full head of red hair. But I think the panels on pg 24 would have looked ridiculous if the colorist had gone with a redhaired scalp.

It's a very small thing, but it has always bothered me that DC let this story go out with the top of young Orion's head completely un-colored. Maybe it wasn't clear whether Jack intended Orion to be bald on top, or instead to have a full head of red hair. But make a choice people, rather than passively-aggressively leaving it unfinished white for multiple panels over the final two pages. Something similar happened on the cover of Mister Miracle #3, where for no known reason the main character's costume is left completely white. You almost wonder if some folks at DC wanted Jack to fail. He's the Marvel guy, right? And he gets to mail his work in from the West Coast, at a time when remote work was unheard of, and New York was the publishing center of the universe. So, they couldn't be bothered to pick up the phone and work out whatever questions they may have had about the coloring?

It's in my personal Top Five for the entire Fourth World series. "The Pact," then "Himon," then a few are neck & neck vying for the next spot, including "The Glory Boat."

With "Glory Boat" Kirby edges into his probably-mixed feelings about the then-current Vietnam War. No doubt this conflict was in the back of his mind when he conceived of two rival worlds fighting a proxy war here on planet Earth.

In addition the work previously mentioned here, he also was instrumental in getting DC's weekly series "52" out the door on time, every week, doing most of the breakdowns for the revolving door of pencilers needed to make that project work. A great talent, will sorely be missed.

See, for this one at least, if Stan were still with us, I'd be willing to bet he would claim Electro's dialogue as written here as a feature, not a bug. And I'd be willing to go along with him. Most of us today cringe at jokey comic book asides following in the wake of the Batman TV show from 1966, but at this point it was probably kind of refreshing to see such a villainous motivation. I mean, c'mon if super-villains were real, once they became super-rich, wouldn't sheer boredom inevitably be the most realistic motivation for continuing? How many of those guys would actually care to take on all the headaches that would come with ruling the world?

Thanks! That's a great article, I hadn't seen it before. But he too is mystified why Goodman bothered to do his 25 cent one-month price jump. He does mention that Infantino at DC didn't get final sales numbers for a year later, so maybe DC didn't know how bad their 25 cent books were doing until 10 months in, when they reverted to 20 cents. But there is an Irwin Donenfeld interview I've quoted before that says before he retired and Infantino took over, Donenfeld had people working for him onsite at the distributors' warehouses, to provide him accurate sales numbers. So maybe it was just Infantino flying blind, and Goodman instead was privy to some information that the planned 25 cent format was a sales loser, letting him reverse course much sooner.

I think that is largely true. From what I've read, DC had locked in a long-term paper supply contract which limited their ability to drop back to the thinner 20 cent format when they saw the hit they were taking. It kind of makes sense that-- as the larger company at the time-- DC would be looking to exploit any economies of scale to try to gain some advantage. What is less clear to me is why did Goodman bother a couple of months later to increase Marvel's cover price to 25 cents for a single month? If he suspected DC would take a hit at the higher price point, why not stick with 15 cents as long as possible, then go directly to 20 cents without the 1-month detour to 25 cents? Do we think there was some kind of collusion between the two companies that Goodman undercut after his 1-month head-fake?

You've shown us in all your threads that there now are more different memories about the work that Kirby did than there are people doing the remembering! No doubt this is a consequence of us being much more interested in the minutia 50 years later than they were at the time, racing to meet their monthly publication deadlines. Nobody was bothering to write this history down at the time. Below is Mark Evanier's recollection published in DC's "Baxter series" reprint of the New Gods from 1984. Here he makes it sound like he sees Kirby dream up the Black Racer on the spot in 1971, and then...

Robert Kanigher would like a word...

That's pretty innovative and suspenseful storytelling for 1964! Sgt. Fury's blackout, leaving both him and the readers in the dark about what exactly happened in France. Then the courtroom drama, including flashbacks to flesh out Nick Fury's back story. Good stuff! Let me guess, next issue without Kirby won't be quite as good?

Yeah, Kirby couldn't really be bothered to work out a grand unified theory for his made-up physics. Stan Lee may have had no earthly idea what real-world transistors were, but he consistently reinforced the idea that was the Stark techno-magic powering Iron Man's suit. Kirby's Mister Miracle suffered from this the most, I think. Seems like he was constantly getting out of death traps by revealing some newly identified hidden micro circuitry embedded in his costume, powered by the Source.

NOW SOLD! Four DC Reprint Issues DC Special Series #2- this is the Original Swamp Thing Saga, which reprints the Len Wein & Bernie Wrightson Swamp Thing #1 and #2 from 1972. For this issue Wrightson drew a new awesome wraparound cover. Very Fine / Near Mint condition: there is a single spine stress line at about the midpoint of the spine. Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes #238 - reprints the Jim Shooter / Curt Swan 2-part Legion of Super-Heroes story from Adventure Comics #359 & #360. Jim Starlin drew the new wraparound cover for this one. Very Fine Minus condition. The upper left and lower left corners are slightly abraded at the spine. The upper right hand corner has a couple of very small color-breaks. Dynamic Classics #1 - the first issue of a prospective reprint series that was cancelled as a result of the DC Implosion. The Giordano cover is new, and inside the first Batman story by Denny O'Neil & Neal Adams is reprinted: "Secret of the Waiting Graves" from Detective Comics #395. Also reprinted is the first installment of the Manhunter series by Archie Goodwin & Walt Simonson from Detective Comics #437. Fine / Very Fine Minus condition: there are some stray fingerprint-like markings on the white areas of the back cover. Battle Classics #1 - likewise the first and only issue of a DC war reprint title, also a victim of the DC Implosion. Reprints the Sgt Rock / Haunted Tank / Johnny Cloud team-up from The Brave and the Bold #52, written by Robert Kanigher and drawn by Joe Kubert. Kubert provided a new cover for this issue. Very Fine Minus condition, just a bit of ink transfer along the spine of the back cover. A few stray creases are also visible on the white areas of the back cover.

Kirby was clearly having fun again, moving so fast he can't remember exactly what Lightray's head gear looks like from panel to panel! The eye visors appear for the first time at the top of page 4, then disappear from the remaining panels of page 4, only to appear again on page 5, and if I recall correctly, never appear again!

With all due respect to Jon Cooke, I think he's missed Kirby's point altogether here. Darkseid isn't out to kill everyone... that would indeed be funnybook bad guy cliche. Although Kirby wasn't completely consistent, I think it is clear that the Anti-Life Equation would give Darkseid the power to enforce his will on any/all thinking beings, negating any free will other than his own. The Forever People series was perhaps more clear on Darkseid's strategy, whereas the New Gods was more of a tactical slugfest with Darkseid's lieutenants. So Darkseid wants this power for the same reason all totalitarians want power: he believes he knows better than anyone else what is required to order the universe, and he's doing this for our own good, whether we like it or not! Kirby does sometimes say Darkseid is out to "snuff out all life," but that is because Life = freedom in Kirby's cosmology. Anti-Life = the negation of freedom in service to the tyrant.

Interesting find! It further adds to the mystery of why the cover logo changed to "Orion of the New Gods" for #2 and #3, then reverted back to this logo for #4. Supposedly Jack's original vision was for the overall trilogy of books to be collectively known as the New Gods, which would be comprised individually of the Forever People, Orion and Mister Miracle. Possibly the covers to #2 and #3 were already done when the decision was made to change the official name of the Orion book. This cover-- being a paste-up reworking of the original concept art for the character-- likely was easier to rework with the revised logo, whereas the logos for #2 and #3 were more integrated into the cover artwork (as we'll soon see...) Perhaps this page is Jack showing DC how he wanted the rework for #1 to be accomplished.

I've always given Kirby a pass on the speech patterns for his gods. It is supposed to be grandiose, over-the-top, operatic. Sometimes though the human characters also speak kind of stiffly. For example, this exposition could have been handled a bit more smoothly: Some of it may just be that by 1971 comic book readers were being exposed to more of the stuff written by the newer generation of scripters like Denny O'Neil, Steve Skeates, and, yes, Roy Thomas. This type of exposition might have better fit into the heyday of Jack & Stan's collaborations from half a decade earlier. The letter from future Superman scripter Elliot S. Maggin actually supports your point-- the New Gods dialogue isn't any more hokey than classic Thor dialogue, but maybe comics readers by 1971 were starting to expect a bit more...

My initial encounter with these stories was via the back-issue boxes of the local used book store, then maybe an occasional mail order, and finally through the Baxter reprint series DC put out in the mid-1980s. So I read them all out of order, based on what I could find locally in those pre-internet days. I know New Gods #7 was the first, cherry-picked from some back issue dealer at my first convention visit. I probably only got to this first issue near the end of my collecting quest, based on its cost as a back issue. So I remember I was surprised to see that Kirby had let the cat out of the bag at the very beginning of his epic regarding Orion's parentage.

That makes the most sense. The kid writes his name on the coupons, maybe with the intent of sending them in someday, or more likely just as an easy way to identify the comic books as his. Then, years later whoever disposed of the comic books tore out the identifying information out of a concern for privacy. We probably all know people who religiously shred any papers identifying the people or the address where the papers originated.

I gotta say, the only place I can recall seeing Stan proclaimed "the Modern Day Shakespeare" is in these threads. When I google the phrases, I do get this page, which toys with the idea of Stan as "a comic book Shakespeare." That's certainly also hyperbole, but not quite as silly as the idea of him being a Shakespeare for today across all genres or media. And I still don't see where he claimed that title for himself?

NOW SOLD! Lot of 9 DCs with Marshall Rogers artwork Average condition is Fine Plus, details noted below. Detective Comics #467 This is the first time Marshall Rogers draws the Batman, but it is in the Hawkman back-up story! The lead story in this issue is written by Bob Rozakis & drawn by John Calnan & Vince Colletta. The cover is by Rich Buckler & Colletta. Fine/Very Fine condition: there are some spine stresses and a small color break about a third of the way up the right-hand edge from the lower right-hand corner. Mild non-color-breaking creasing at the upper right section of the front cover. Detective Comics #468 Full-length Marshall Rogers story, as the Batman joins with Green Arrow, the Atom, Black Canary, the Elongated Man and Hawkman to take on the Calculator. Jim Aparo drew the cover. Fine condition. Worn around the edges, including color breaks along the spine, a tiny tear on the right hand edge of the front cover, and creasing at the lower right corner of the front cover. There are a few spots of discoloration on the front cover, see for example the letters "TEC" as part of the Detective Comics cover logo. Mister Miracle #19 First post-Kirby issue. Granny Goodness cover. Steve Englehart scripts, Marshall Rogers interior pencils + cover artwork. Fine / Very Fine condition. Manufactured with only the upper staple. There is a small color flake on the letter "M" in the Mister Miracle cover logo. There is a crease at the upper right corner of the front cover that does not break color, and this crease goes through the book, also visible on the upper left corner of the back cover. Mister Miracle #20 ----script by Steve Englehart. Art by Marshall Rogers & Vince Colletta. Very Fine condition. There is a production crease running horizontally from the upper left edge of the back cover. Very mild ink transfer near the lower left corner of the back cover. Mister Miracle #21 Another Englehart/Rogers/Colletta production. Very Fine condition: similar to #19 this comic book was manufactured with only the upper staple. The wrap is skewed a bit, the upper right-hand edge has some of the text cut off (from the original printing job). Very slight color loss, possibly abrasion, at the upper left corner DC logo. Mister Miracle #22 Steve Englehart writes this one under his pen-name of John Harkness. Marshall Rogers illustrates and is joined in this issue by Rick Bryant and John Fuller. Fine / Very Fine. Very slight color-breaks near the upper right corner of the front cover. DC Special Series #15 - a.k.a. the Batman Spectacular. Features some of the best Batman artists of the late 1970s. The cover is drawn by Marshall Rogers. Inside, there are 3 stories: the first is written by David V. Reed, and illustrated by Mike Nasser & Joe Rubinstein. Then "I Now Pronounce You Batman and Wife" is written by Denny O'Neil and drawn by Michael Golden & Dick Giordano. Ras al Ghul and Talia appear in this story. Finally, "Death Strikes at Midnight and Three" is written by Denny O'Neil as a straight prose short-story, but with illustrations by Marshall Rogers. Fine Plus condition: the lower left-hand corner is abraded, and the lower right-hand corner has a bit of cover overhang and a bit of discoloration. Madame Xanadu #1 written by Steve Englehart, illustrated by Marshall Rogers. Cover and interior poster by Michael Kaluta. In addition, there is a 7-page science fiction backup story with art by Brian Bolland, a rare example of interior comics work by Bolland. Fine condition: color-breaking stress lines along the spine, and color-breaking crease lines along the upper edge of the front and back covers. These stress lines really show up against the black border areas of the front and back covers. Secret Origins #6 Roy Thomas scripts a retelling of the Batman's origin. Rogers & Austin provide the artwork. Also features the origin story for Halo, with Dick Giordano art. Cover is by J. L. Garcia-Lopez. Fine Plus condition. There is a very slight spine roll, and some spine stress lines, including a couple of tiny color breaks.

Triumph of hope over experience? Or, if comics really were 90% impulse buy items back then, perhaps a recognition that publishers had to flood the newsstands with product just in case the demand showed up? And they'd never know where exactly that impulse would hit, so would need to cover each town's drugstores, grocery markets, bus stops, etc, just in case?

Was it Stanley that had the power to "keep it going until it worked?" Wouldn't Goodman have had more of a say? The prevailing theory in this thread has been that Goodman was going to shut it down (maybe more than once) despite Stanley, and had to be talked into keeping it going by Kirby, right? Why would he suddenly give Stan free reign? I think the answer may be that at the 12 cent cover price, those 189,305 copies brought in more revenue than the earlier 191,261 copies at 10 cents back in 1961. Comics probably all took a hit in circulation based on the cover price increase. But if you're right about the estimates for ASM & FF, it is very likely true that Strange Tales was underperforming in Goodman's eyes, and probably accounts for the upcoming introduction of the Thing as a co-star to try to bump up sales. And I'm not sure comparing Marvel's circulation to licensed characters like the Flintstones, Woody Woodpecker, Tarzan, etc. is a useful comparison. While I don't know this, I think it likely that paying any up-front licensing fee would really make Goodman's head explode. Wasn't the history of his business model to copy something successful, rather than pay someone else for the rights?

I usually try to find areas where we don't have to point the finger at either Lee or Kirby as out-and-out lying. So, by being charitable with what we consider to be "writing" we can understand Kirby being sure that what Kirby was doing (in the Marvel method) counted as writing, while Lee was equally sure that what Lee was doing also counted as "writing." But a couple of Stan Lee's claims in the Origins book just defy belief: the idea for Thor being prompted by a supposed Stan Lee radio show interview (back in 1961??), or the contradictory Doctor Strange claim versus his real-time disavowal ("twas Steve's idea.") Makes me doubt all the other tall tales in that book and thereafter. And then we have Kirby's TCJ memory about the genesis of the Hulk. Even Roz has to pull him back from this one. (Emphasis mine in the below for the statements that particularly make me go ) The earliest Hulks don't have Banner changing in an adrenaline-fueled rage (that came later) but were triggered by the sun going down at nightfall. So kind of a combination of Frankenstein and the werewolf, wrapped up in a Comics Code Approved super-science gamma-ray explanation.

Lot of 7 written by Alan Brennert Detective Comics #500 Alan Brennert wrote the lead story, with a cameo appearance by the Phantom Stranger and artwork by Giordano. Other stories in this issue (not by Brennert) feature Hawkman (Joe Kubert art), various non-super-powered detectives who had appeared in Detective Comics over the years (Jim Aparo art), Elongated Man (J. L. Garcia-Lopez art) and additional Batman stories with art by Walt Simonson and Carmine Infantino. Robin and Deadman make appearances in the latter story. Fine Plus condition. No color-breaking creases. Corners are abraded. The left-hand edge of the back cover was cut out-of-square at the printer, resulting in the white strip visible on the back cover scan. The Brave and the Bold #178 Batman and the Creeper, written by Alan Brennert, illustrated by Jim Aparo, who also drew the cover. Very Good / Fine condition: there is a tiny chip out on the right-hand edge of the front cover, about 2 inches below the upper right-hand corner. Along the right-hand edge is a thin color-breaking crease line. The upper staple is discolored, but not rusted. The Brave and the Bold #181 Batman and the Hawk & the Dove, written by Alan Brennert, illustrated by Jim Aparo, who also drew the cover. Very Fine Minus condition: a non-color-breaking spine crease about midway up the spine, and some stray ink marking near the lower right corner. The Brave and the Bold #182 Batman and the Earth-2 Robin, written by Alan Brennert, illustrated by Jim Aparo, who also drew the cover. Cameo appearances by the Earth-2 Starman and Batwoman. Fine / Very Fine condition: there is are some color-breaking spine creases, the most significant being about midway up the spine. There is a bit of overhang along the upper edge of the back cover. The upper staple is discolored, but not rusted. The Brave and the Bold #197 has a cover drawn by Jim Aparo, for Brennert’s story “The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne!” Interior artwork for this story is by the team of Joe Staton & George Freeman. Very Fine Minus condition. No water damage, no staining. No color-breaking creases, no spine splits. The bottom right-hand corner of the front cover is slightly abraded. There are a few stress lines along the back cover spine, not particularly visible against the white border areas. Christmas with the Super-Heroes #2 Brennert writes the Deadman story in this issue, illustrated by Giordano. There is an appearance here by a pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths character. Other stories in this issue (not written by Brennert) feature Superman (Paul Chadwick art), Batman (Gray Morrow art), Enemy Ace (John Byrne art), Wonder Woman (Eric Shanower art), and the Flash & Green Lantern team (art by Colleen Duran & Ty Templeton). Fine condition: this presents nicely from the front, but there is some soiling, possibly ink transfer staining, on the back cover, as seen on the back cover scan. Batman: Holy Terror. This is a squarebound Elseworlds graphic novel written by Brennert and drawn by Norm Breyfogle. Fine / Very Fine condition: there are reading creases along the spine, both on the front cover and the back cover (common with these squarebound books). The corners are abraded, and there is a slight color flake out on the top edge near the upper right-hand corner of the front cover.