Zonker

Dave wrote... My point all along has been that the years 1970-75 should be called The Weird Age, as the comics of that brief era are exactly as you described, i.e, just about everything interesting was anything *but* superheroes. But here I would disagree. While much of the groundbreaking work of the period (including Conan, Kull, Swamp Thing, Tomb of Dracula) lay outside the super-hero genre, there were some truly revolutionary takes on the super-hero in this period: I'm thinking of Green Lantern / Green Arrow, the O'Neil/Adams Batman, Steve Englehart's Captain America, Amazing Spider-Man around the time of Gwen Stacey's death & the intro of the Punisher. Not sure in which category to place the Kirby Fourth World books. But definitely the weird/bronze age had a lot of cross-fertilization between the hero books and other genres. Cheers, Z.

Dave wrote: I'm not sure that "Bronze Age" dates back quite that far in terms of common usage. I dug up an Overstreet from 1992 and the term isn't even mentioned Y'know, I could have sworn that Bronze Age updates were a feature of the Overstreet market reports going back to the first Overstreet Updates of the early 80's. But I just pulled #4 (1985) and #6 (1987, Green Arrow cover) and there is no mention of a Bronze Age, and Silver Age is defined as 1956 to current. Then the next issue readily at hand is the Overstreet's Comic Book Marketplace (the Overstreet/Gary Carter CBM hybrid) #1 from 1993 where they helpfully bold font the various time periods in the market reports. In addition to Golden Age, Silver Age, we get 70s DCs, 70s Marvels, and "recent." So you're absolutely correct, the Bronze Age term has nowhere near the 'pedigree' I thought it did. In a sign of things to come, the final page of the 1993 issue has a feature called "Lost Comics of the 70's" in which the author argued that since 70's books were then reaching the magic age of 20 years old, they were due to increase in value. His picks? House of Secrets 92 Swamp Thing 1-24 Marvel Team-Up 1 Marvel Premiere 1 Warlock 1. Cheers, Z.

Dave, you state your case very well. While I still think the requirement that a "metal age" must necessarily be super-hero-centric is arbitrary, and I think you're climbing up-hill to reverse the common bronze-age terminology in use the last 20 years, I do want to salute your efforts. I do kind of like the idea of the early 70s being an analog to the early 50s Atomic Age. Both had great genre diversity, and some of the finest non-super hero comics ever came out in those two periods. "Weird Age" strikes me at first as an awkward name, but there are numerous examples of books with "Weird" in the title during this period: 1. Weird Western Tales, which you mentioned (Jonah Hex started here) 2. Weird War Tales (CBM once published an article claiming WWT #1 started the Bronze Age) 3. Weird Worlds (ERB stories, later Chaykin's Iron Wolf) 4. Weird Mystery Tales (so-so DC horror stories) 5. Adventure Comics was briefly renamed " Weird Adventure Comics" on the cover during the Aparo Spectre run. 6. later issues of Phantom Stranger have the heading "Follow me into Weird Worlds, for I am...the Phantom Stranger." The above is very DC-centric, but then I recall that one of the most famous Bronze Age characters of all, Conan the Barbarian, was a comics revival of a character who first appeared in the pulp magazine called 7. Weird Tales! So ya might be on to something after all. Z.

Also, Roy Thomas had some fun with Midnight as a Spirit stand-in during the pre-Crisis All Star Squadron. Since Eisner owns the Spirit rights, DC could not include the Spirit in the book, but Midnight was featured instead with some very Eisner-ish layouts and atmosphere. I recall reading somewhere that Cole's Midnight is to the Spirit as Cole's Death Patrol is to the Blackhawks. That ring a bell with anyone? Z.

In no particular order 1. Great 1st Bronze Age Book Debate 2. Bug- BoC Graemlin War 3. "Cleaned & Pressed Is the Way to Go!" 4. Christmas Day Massacre 5. Edgar Church rants 6. "Boolean" 7. Cover scans one-upmanship 8. How to spot restoration 9. The Coming Market Crash 10. Joanna's Sensation-al Comics Summaries

ROFLMAO! Your best yet, M.K. Ya got my vote for our official Chronicle And Keeper of Alle Tribal Knoweleche Z.

Jack Kirby's New Gods / 4th World Saga. Except everybody would accuse it of being a blatant rip-off of Star Wars!

For cover scans and creator credits (comic books since the beginning, and from around the world), see the Grand Comic Book Database Project For news and industry gossip, see the Newsarama site. For a fan site of one of comic's best ever best writer/editors, check out the Denny O'Neil page. (Denny himself checks in on a weekly basis or so). Thanks MoS! Z.

Someone's selling incomplete & coverless G.A. right now on eBay: parts for sale Good luck, Z.

Hi Ankur, My most successful piece-together is Spy Smasher #10 (a Hitler cover that come to think of it belongs on that other thread). Bought a VG- copy on eBay, opened it up, found an interior page was taped up. Seller did not want to accept a return (yeah, yeah Overstreet now allows tape on VG comics), but did offer to discount the ending price after the fact. So I bide my time and within a few months I win another Spy Smasher #10 at a very low price due to a badly soiled and damaged back cover. Open this one up, it is missing pages, but fortunately not the pages I need (what, does nobody else in the world bother to open up copies of this particular issue?? ) Anyway, now I have a nice-enough-for-me copy of this book (Moderate (A) Restoration ) at a reasonable discount to book value. Didn't save a lot of money, but did have fun! And I do have some leftover pieces--including a decent front cover-- of this particular issue. By the way, I'm looking forward to getting that coverless More Fun #58 I just BIN from you on eBay. Take care, Zonker (dude)

Yes, the CBM article did mention Conan #1, but I've now put it away and no longer recall why Conan #1 was not selected as their starting point. (Whatever the reason, it must have been really lame to prefer Weird War Tales #1 to it...) In a previous post, I postulated that the Bronze Age swept into different titles in different times during 1970 to 1971. Certainly a strong case can be made that the Bronze Age truly arrived at Marvel in books cover-dated October 1970, i.e. Conan the Barbarian #1 (a great thing) and Fantastic Four #103, the first non-Kirby FF (not a good thing). It's just that some of us DC readers find evidence of the Bronze Age in DC books cover-dated earlier than October 1970. Cheers, Z.

Reasonable people can of course differ. Perhaps the original Aquaman run in its entirety should be relegated to the Silver Age. But there's a world of difference between the early defining Silver Age-ish Julie Schwartz books, and the Skeates-Aparo-Giordano final issues of Aquaman. Really need several strata of Silver Age-ness, such as: Early Silver Age: Showcase 4 up until Fantastic Four #1 Middle (or "Marvel Age"): Fantastic Four #1, up until 1966 (when Romita replaces Ditko on Amazing Spider-Man) Late Silver Age: 1966-1969, including as defining characteristics: -Steranko's Nick Fury -Adams Deadman -all Giordano edited DC books (SAG Aquaman, Creeper, Hawk&Dove, etc.) -Romita Spider-Man -Cosmic Kirby Fantastic Four -O'Neil/Aragones/Cardy Bat Lash -Joe Orlando's revival of horror (I mean "mystery") anthologies at DC -no more Infantino Flash (Ross Andru instead) -Infantino-initiated experimentation as editor-in-chief at National (aka DC) ...but maybe I need to move this over to the Silver Age board! Cheers, Z.

It's probably of general interest for all, so check out issue 86 October 2001 of CBM. In it, there were at least 3 opinions expressed, including the frequently-mentioned GL #76, the frequently-hotly-debated GS X-Men #1, and the laughable Weird War Tales #1. Cheers, Z.

Cool, I'll be looking forward to the article. I do hope this means the recent Comic Book Marketplace article on the subject does not represent Gemstone/Overstreet's opinion on the matter. Surely we can all agree that whatever started the Bronze Age, it most definitely was not... Weird War Tales #1 (Sept/Oct 1971)! Cheers, Z.

Forgot a few... Teen Titans 25 Jan/Feb 1970-- "Titans Kill a Saint?" classic; 1st Lilith; Robin leaves. Brave & Bold 98 Aug/Sep 1971-- first Jim Aparo art Aquaman 50 Mar/Apr 1970-- Deadman by Adams begins crossover

Hey boys & girls, we gotta flog this horse some more. Occurs to me that the 1-book-starts-the-age philosophy does not work. We can all agree the Golden Age began with Action #1 June 1938, right? Therefore books like Detective Comics #1 March 1937 belong to a previous period, perhaps the Platinum Age. But does that mean the June 1938 issue of Detective Comics (#16 to be exact) instantly became Golden Age as well? Of course not, we seem to all understand that Detective Comics "participated" in the Golden Age beginning with issue 27 May 1939 when the Batman was introduced. Another example: The Silver Age begins with Showcase #4, October 1956. Do all the Marvel monster books beginning with the October 1956 issues immediately become Silver Age? Overstreet would have us believe Strange Tales 51 is the first Silver Age issue of that title, but really it is indistinguishable from #50 or #52. Fantastic Four #1 hit in November 1961-- that is surely Marvel Silver Age, but it does nothing to elevate Strange Tales #90 (also November 1961) to Silver Age status. I'd argue Strange Tales "participated" in the Silver Age beginning with #101, when the Human Torch solo feature arrived. So therefore we can say that the Bronze Age began first in the Green Lantern book with #76 April 1970, with the Batman titles beginning with Detective 395 (January 1970), and Conan and Tomb of Dracula were Bronze from the beginning. See where I'm going? The question now is: What book started the Bronze Age in each title? And here is the beginnings of a list: Fantastic Four 103 October 1970--First non-Kirby issue Amazing Spider Man 100 September 1971--First non Stan Lee issue Detective 395 January 1970-- First O'Neil-Adams issue Batman 219 February 1970-- First Adams art this title GL/GA 76 April 1970-- First O'Neil-Adams, Green Arrow issue Flash 195 March 1970-- First Gil Kane art this title Superman 233 January 1971-- First Schwartz-edited issue. O'Neil/Swan/Anderson Justice League 78 February 1970-- JLA leave earth; Black Canary joins Superboy 184 December 1971--First Cockrum Legion Action 419 December 1971-- First Schwartz-edited issue. Jimmy Olsen 133 October 1970-- First Kirby issue Anyone want to add to the list? Cheers, Z.

Thanks for the reply Dr. Banner. Reasonable people can of course differ on this one. I like the concept of later books serving to confirm earlier milestones. Thus, Showcase 4 is confirmed by Brave&Bold 28 (first JLA), whose cover directly leads to FF #1 and Marvel's entry into the Silver Age. I'll still hold out for the progression from Detective 395 to GL/GA #76 to Conan #1 as the confirming trend for the Bronze Age. (Remember what looked like a standalone Showcase #4 was immediately followed up by... Showcase #5 featuring the Manhunters [?]...). Later I'll re-read what Roy Thomas has said about the origins of the Conan Marvel franchise (in the Tempo paperbacks) and Denny on GL/GA. (in various tpb's). Maybe they can shed some light one way or another. Cheers, Z.

Yes, but it is Batman 255, not Detective. Neal Adams pencils & inks, Len Wein's story. This was Adams' swan song as a Batman artist (apart from occasional covers after this point). One of the best! Cheers, Z.

Let me address the argument summarized by your sig: Superman (Golden), Flash (Silver) continue to the present day. The New X-Men continue to the present day in a big way, so Giant Size X-Men #1 belongs as the beginning of the Bronze Age. Other claims to the beginning of the Bronze Age have died out in the intervening years. True enough, but my argument for Detective 395 as the beginning of the B.A. lets me point out that what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams did in re-vamping The Batman in this book dated January 1970 (powerfully symbolic date, that), survives in a big way today. Batman is never going back to the Adam West days after O'Neil/Adams. It was these stories that paved the way for Englehart/Rogers and Frank Miller's later takes on The Batman. Moreover, this was the beginning of the more mature, revisionist approach to super-heroes that soon led to GL/GA and its many imitators. The Bronze Age was pitched to an older audience (say 15,16 and above), just as Stan Lee's Marvel Silver Age was geared to a slightly older audience (say 13,14) than its earlier rivals. Without Detective 395 there would have been no Dark Knight Returns, no Batman movie. It is unlikely there would have been the O'Neil/Adams GL/GA. Gil Kane almost was assigned GL/GA, and while I love Kane's art it is unlikely that book would have had the same impact without Neal Adams flashy graphic approach. There certainly would have been Conan, and Kirby's 4th World, but without The Batman and GL/GA making such a big splash in the early 70's it is doubtful how far the experimental approach would have gone into the mainstream Marvel and DC super-heroes of the period. Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams began the Bronze Age. Cheers, Z.

That was Detective 471, but I doubt it counts as a single issue complete story: it is the continuation from 470, and part of the serial that runs from 469-476 (variously reprinted as "Strange Apparitions" and "Shadow of the Batman.") My best single-issue Bronze Age stories (sorry FF#51 has gotta be Silver Age): 1.Batman 237 Night of the Reaper O'Neil-Adams 2. Conan 24 Song of Red Sonja Thomas-Smith (you don't need to read #23 first) 3. New Gods 7 The Pact by Kirby (works standalone, but much richer if you've read the 4th World stories up to that point.) 4. Mr. Miracle 9 Himon by Kirby (ditto) Cheers, Z.