BLBcomics-migration

I would have to go in to the Plat list archives, type in some key word search trips, re-find the 450 AD word balloon example(s) some one posted there about a decade ago now, then post. Will try to get to it next day or so. The examples were drawn on a wall dating to late Roman Empire period. The words were there with lines drawn around them with a pointed end pointing at who ever was speaking. The wheel is constantly re-invented, what is "new" is most always quite old, is how I see most "innovations" some generations seek to present. Anyway, the comic strip comic books have been around a ga-zillion years now. Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman. A collector dealer friend pointed out to me last night that I think he said it was on a recent Comic Connect auction which had a Flash Comics #1 sell for approx $70K that a number of Silver Age comics sold for more. The price of some thing has zero to do with its "importance" as an aercheological artifact. But that is all in the eye of the beholder and what one might deem "important" - just an opine from this dinosaur comic book dealer collector working in a hobby which got way out of hand a very long time ago now. Ah, AD, not BC. I missread. I'll see if I can track it down. Bob, on your second paragraph, I would very much agree that a higher monetary value does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance. I would also suggest, however, that being older or even first does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance either. So I would disagree with your statement that OO is more "important" than Superman, simply because Superman has had a far greater impact on popular culture than OO. OO is important and much more important than the character has been given credit for. And you should be given credit for bringing attention to that importance. But that importance is not due to one American bootleg version in 1842, but rather to the fact that it was one of Töpffer's more important comic strip works and due to his influence on the later European comic strip artists like Wilhelm Busch. You can trace a direct line from Töpffer to the Katzenjammer Kids, so there is no doubt he was an important pioneer. But to say OO is more historical significant than Superman is really over-reaching. Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman. After seven years, you've got to admire his dedication to his position, as untenable as it is. and showcase4 is already gutted; no $ need to hew that line any longer. as annoying as this whole debate is and as unlikely (frankly Bob) as it was that you were a "reluctant dragon in this passion play" (50k tends to erase reluctance) who cares if Steve paid too much or didn't pay too much. It happens every day, we are all big boys and it is upon us to know and understand what we are buying. As long as Bob didn't lie about what it was he was selling, overpaying is Steve's problem alone and Bob got a nice sale. Even if Bob convinced it was Steve that OO was the first american comic book, well maybe it is, maybe it isn't, that's the subject of debate and it was on Steve to satisfy himself on that front. As long as he was honest I say good for Bob on a nice sale. There is zero doubt after some 15 years of intensive research by a host of interested souls that The Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck was is and will always be the "first" American published comic book. It is NOT the "first" comic book "published" - that honor falls to Topffer himself in the 1830s over in Geneva, Switzerland, where the Swiss have long had an entire museum dedicated to Rodolphe Topffer which I one day wish to pay a visit. The original art to his comic strip books still exists and one can see it there, so I am told by euro friends who have been to it. ALL the heavy lifitng of making a proper time line resides in Comic Art #3 published in 2003 a decade ago now which I now publicly IMPLORE publisher Tod Hignite to REPRINT so as those of you reading here, as well as other potential persons interested in such mundane matters, may satisfy for themselves as to the impact Topffer's sequential comic art books had on the world of comic books beginning in as many as six countries just in the 1830s and 1840s alone. Not just here in the USA. Americans need to get such petty nationalistic fervor out of their systems once and for all. I can write those words because I used to resemble that remark myself until irrefutable proof hit my over the head. Regarding Steve Myer and his 2005 Oldbuck offers, he came at me unrelenting for some months as I kept telling him back then I did not want to sell my Oldbuck treasures. He told me back then he also paid $20K to a southern Calif collector for that guy's copy as well. I would have to research very old emails to figure out who that guy was. That collector was on the Plat list for a long time. Steve told me at the time of these purchases one seemed to have to make a "big buy" splash to get noticed in the vintage funny book mercantiling marketng world. Seems million dollar sales stirred up some interest a couple years ago as well, last i checked. Steve also was "hot" then buying up ie overpaying for the reputed "rarest" Big Little Book which is listed in OPG as one of the Mickey Mouse Mail Pilot variants. Steve told me he had tons of spare cash to invest that year 2005 as he had made half a million dollars in "extra" bonus money being #3 guy then in Wells Fargo Bank's real estate division. I took all those bucks and spent it all buying up a host of original early comics artifacts to further my reserch efforts. I had nothing left to learn from owning 1842 oldbucks and have always planned to acquire one again down the road, but then the hip joints "blew out" summer of 2006 at the Chicago Wizard show changing my life style completely, possibly forever, but am working hard these days of daZe to pull out of that nose dive. Steve only sold out soon thereafter when the real estate concept took a nose dive some may have noticed soon thereafter which caught him more than very short as his world collapsed as he then knew it. I felt badly for him at the time. Then again, he was not alone in losing out then big time in that field of finance.

What a pleasure to read such a cognitive, compact, and credible post from a subject-matter expert. You really need to post more often, Rich. Seconded! And I cheerfully "third" as Rich has a wealth of lore he has gleaned over the decades, as have a lot of souls who love the medium of comics. That said, no one in this camp has ever stated Yellow Kid was not, is not, important in the unfolding evolution of the myriad delivery systems of comic art in America. And a simple examination of that pesky concept called "published evidence" still stipulates the Yellow Kid is not "first" of any thing unless one narrows one's parameters to the very narrow definition of raising consciousness of a news paper "war" between Pulitzer and Hearst, while also throwing in for good measure one newspaper tycoon publisher Gordon Bennett who, left out of this "discussion," lured Outcault away from BOTH Pulitzer AND Hearst in 1897 when Outcault launched first Pore Li'l Mose, then Buddy Tucker, then Buster Brown in May 1902. Wasn't till later Hearst lured Outcault back regarding Buster Brown. SOURCES to cooberate for those who need it: http://john-adcock.blogspot.com/2009/09/richard-fenton-outcault-1863-1928.html which states at the end of this piece: "....In 1897 Outcault left The Yellow Kid and Hearst’s employ for James Gordon Bennett’s Herald where he drew L’il Mose and Buddy Tucker. Buster Brown began May 1902 in the Herald, then, when Outcault moved back to Hearst, the Herald continued with a competing Buster Brown under different artists...." as well as this article from 1928 an obit of sorts upon the death of Outcault which in retrospect backed up by much archeological historial research by many souls these past decades has some time dating errors http://www.strippersguide.com/?p=608 but still comes thru spot on re Bennett's publishing Buster Brwown in the beginning before Hearst's superior purchasing power bought Outcault back. Bennett also brought us the magic of Winsor McCay's Little Nemo before Hearst's superior money position also bought McCay over to his camp continuing Little Nemo as a name change with In The Land of Wonderful Dreams, but I digress.... Am now presenting "typical" two book covers (both from 1995) simply to illustrate the point that prior to the re-discovery of the 1842 Wilson and Co. Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck by me after reading Gersham Legman's long article on early 1800s comic books in American Notes and Queries Jan 1946 number, Yellow Kid was looked upon as THE "strip" which "....started the comics...." and here is the cover to the 1995 Kitchen book which states on its cover, well, one can read it one's own self. "A Centennial Celebration of the Kid Who Started The Comics." That concept is patently untrue. Regarding "super star" in comics, since starting the Plat List over on yahoo in 1999, I take a more macro world approach, and if one expands one's consciousness, then "super star" in comics as a "first" falls more so with England's Alley Sloper who was also extensively merchandised with all sorts of "stuff' for the collector to, well, "collect." Agreed to a certain extent, and always so, bringing what used to be (erroneous) "common knowledge" re Yellow Kid being "first" comic strip "....who started the comics..." which permeated USA-centric nationalistic collective consciousness for a long time is obviously very wrong, however, no argument from me ever that Yellow Kid is the "first super star" in AMERICAN newspaper comic strip lexicon lore. That concept, to me and others researching this stuff, is a very very thin slice of the historical pie.

Part of the reason that that viewpoint is prevailing is that it was set forth by many of the members of early fandom who lived through that time period. The Jerry Bails and G.B. Loves of the world were establishing that prevailing wisdom in the early 1960s, just over twenty years after Action 1 came out. Certainly they were more along the lines of us, collectors, and not the general public, so they had an interest in Superman above and beyond what any Joe Blow buying comics in the late '30s would have had. But every one of those collectors who I have spoken with who remember buying comics when Action 1 came out all say it had a tremendous impact on them and their interest in comics in general. Roy Bonario, our local god-father of collecting, has gone further and said that comics were the currency of youth, bartered for any number of things, and early Superman appearances had more trade value than any other comics...even pre-Superman 1. back when Jerry Bails was still alive, I used to stay at his home in the Detroit area after long days in my booths at Mike Goldman shows. I inteviewed him extensively on a host of comics history concepts. One thing he was adamant about was the "silly" aspect of Gold Silver Bronze and especially "copper" describing 'ages" of the comic books. He was wont to say "every one' has a "Golden Age of Comics was a youth he always used the First Heroic Age describing 1938-1945 Second Heroic Age describing 1959-1968. We talked a lot about the concept there ALWAYS would have been a thriving comic book industry sans Superman. Some how the comic book industry THRIVED with out men in tights for some 15 years inbetween the First and Second Heroic ages of the comics. Also, Roy Bonario was brought up here. I would like to take a moment here to publicly thank Roy, Marc Schooley, and others who, at my first comicon ever, Houstoncon 67 held June 17 18 that year, I took a Greyhound bus down there from Fremont here for some 28 non stop hours, leaving out age 14, turning 15 that first day Saturday, my birthday. Trip is, my brother Gary had just died of a leukemia they barely had a name for just three weeks prior. The week of the show I simply announced to my parents I was catching the Greyhound to trek to Houston for something called a comic book convention. Roy and Marc had had a 3.5 page advert in RBCC #47 Oct 1966. My brother gary and mine's very first ad - a ten liner costing a buck to place - was on that last half page of their HUGE ad. The first page of their ad had the cryptic "Houstoncon 67 is coming in June, watch for it" or some such. These Houston guys and other Comics Gurus from around the country who came to this early gathering of the tribes, many of them long gone now, helped me put my grief away for a couple days. I was such a "silly" young teenager lost in his thoughts, i had not paused to think where I might stay the nights of the show, so Bill Wallace let me bunk with him and Anthony Smith. Wonderful people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHHk4j5t0uw Also, this was just sent to me by long time friend Bruce Shults who placed it on YouTube, footage taken by Don Maris of the first Multicon 70 in Oklahoma City. I saw myself at 25 seconds, 18 years old, sitting behind my booth in long sleeve black shirt talking a deal with some one. Bruce Hershonson is right at the beginning, look for the guy who places his hand in front of his face. Russ Cochran is in it, Bud Plant, Buddy Saunders, John Cawley at 2:25, Bud Plant, Jim Grey, Rick Payne is 13 years old in same frames as a beardless Russ Cochran around the 3:05 second frame Anyway, a neat blast from the past I just received tonight

FORGING A NEW MEDIUM The Comic Strip in the Nineteenth Century VUB University Press, 1998, edited by Pascal Lefevre & Charles Dierick This was the book which inspired me to start the PlatinumAgeComics list on yahoogroups.com in mid 1999. Contains articles by various authors on international scale exploring comic strip evolutions in the 1800s. Interested parties should track this seminal book down. Topffer has a chapter by Thierry Groensteen, then head curator of the Angouleme comics museum in France

CARICATURE AND OTHER COMIC ART By James Parton, 1877, Harper & Bros, NYC First history book written and published in America about earlier comics & cartoons

HUGO HERCULES 1902 by J. Koerner, Chicago Tribune, earliest known super hero in the comics, this page from The Comic Strip Century, 1995, edited by Bill Blackbeard

West, I think I have read too many comics. Mayebe it was visiting with legendary comics collector Ernie McGee NJ starting back in 1971. He was in his 80s then, born in 1884, began seriously collecting comics in 1914. It was his Yellow Kid complete run which Jack Herbet NYC bought from Ernie's daughters in 1976 after his death, who in turn donated that YK run upon his death to Bill Blackbeard SF, who, in turn, used it to make the 1995 Yellow Kid book Kitchen published or, Bill Blackbeard himself, another long time friend now passed on. A couple hundred treks in to his San Francisco Academy of Comic Art Or simply the years I spent traveling to major holdings of 1800s comics stuff making the OPG indexes of Vict and Plat - seeing the wealth of fable created by thousands of comics creators I never knew existed until i went on my quest once I read about 1800s comics in a 1946 Gersham Legman article For a very long time I used to believe like the many of the contrary postings I have read here. Then i saw "the light" - the light of Comics Truth I believed the mantra taught for a long time: YK first comic strip in 1895, FF first comic book in 1934. then went thru a (short) period of feeling maybe everything one thought one knew was wrong. Now, I have been a bit fascinated with the concentration on of importance attached to "super hero" comics supposedly 'saving' American comic books. To me, that remains simply silly, and not seeking to cause umbrage in any one when I uses the term. In the 20s and 30s comic strips artists were some of the highest paid entertainers in the country. I have pictures of 20,000 fans swarming to see George McManus in 1923, one might almost call it a comics festival, or some such term one might want to use. If Donenfeld had never published Action Comics #1, George Delacorte would still have entered in to his comic book publishing contracts. The later was "there" pioneering original material news stand comics periodicals since the the late 1920s. When Delacorte sold out his 50-50 partnership in Famous Funnies and began putting Popular Comics together by mid 1935, Gaines came to work for him as editor, whom in turn, hired a teenaged Shelly Mayer. Hence, there still would have been a Scribbly.... The comic "book" magazine industry would still havbe evolved with or without Superman and his "spawn" I also think the side stiched periodical comics magazine is a dinosaur slowly finally on its was out as a viable publishing format except for a very few titles as e-book delivery continues to accelerate via generational change in entertainment delivery systems.

Yo Theagenes, The OPG "essay" has to be read EACH year of Overstreet from #32 2002 which is the first year for the Victorian section finally to be broken away from the "Platinum" era article and price index as we had finally accumulated enough enteries to make a viabable section stand on its own two feet. Once OPG said no more room in the inn some years ago, I had to eject otherwise necessary data and visual aid to make room for "new" necessary data and visualaid then having been recently re-discovered. Hard painful choices. Semi-demoralized me wanting to continue working on those sections I have been fronting for over 15 years now with able contributions from some 40+ comics scholar friends all acknowledged at the beginning of the Vict and Plat price index sections. I hesitated long and hard on scanning this Comic Art #3 piece now a decade old, I am not the only copyright holder on this article, but the narrow-sighted peanut gallery chorus was slowly gaining momentum for what ever reasons only they have inside their skewed views of the American comic book industry now over 170 years old. Also, i only have three copies left of this Comic Art #3 and had to hunt one down amongst the vintage 45,000 items in my 4000 square foot warehouse which I located this morning. Did not want to bring it up with just mere words, rather, let its scholarly archeological work contained therein speak (read) for itself Just about every query you brought up, and then some, are answered in this piece. Regarding reprints of Obadiah Oldbuck over the decades of the 1800s - and there are quite a few - one only has to scroll thru the Overstreet and said consciousness is instantly raised. I see no point in wasting time rejurgitating that data here. Quite honestly, left to me own devices on my thread here, I would have been unfolding all this stuff over the short term of time allowed from confronting the medical pit which my family is digging out of. Others may have their perspectives and choices in interpretation of motive. For me, I work the comics business as well as researching the medium full time seven days of daZe a week. Except for my "lost" half a decade for which I am now trying to make up for lost time. My ebay feedback sez I am doing a good job at it, too. My last eBay negatives were from a liar who stole some lobby cards I had accidently mailed him last summer and refused to return them when the midwest here was experiencing mind numbing heat wave reaching 116 degrees for some six straight weeks. People were dying around here from that sort of heat. Crops all burned up form the drought. I had dehydrated something fierce. My long time priimary care doctor here in Fremont is Jeff Rapp Jr, a well known collecor who has Action #1, Tec 27, Marvel #1 and tons of other "big" books. He can cheerfully attest to the fact I was in bad shape last summer till the heart wave broke. And I was also still in "gimp" stage trying to "graduate" from crutches to just canes post surgery. Now, thank the Comic Ghods, I am off the canes at last as well, even working out at the local gym a few times a week. I ask for no "mercy" offers on any of my wares which usually translates in to "low ball" - rather, if I have decent material a person honestly likes, please consider making a purchase. Those purchases helps me heal Katy as well as funds my delviing back in to the huge piles of primary research files as I have begun work on my history book(s) again this past year after too long a hiatus. It might behoove Tod Hignite to REPRINT this #3 issue of Comic Art which went quickly out of print back in 2003. The issue also contains a wonderful visit inside Chris Ware's studio, methinks that is why it sold out so quickly. Surely not for this investigation into "Topffer in America" Around the time Comic Art #3 was issued I let Chris Ware borrow my legendary silver briefcase then containing a tremendous amount of these 1800s artifacts including my then thre original 1842 copies of Obadiah Oldbuck amongst many many other early comic art original artifact treasures for which he surprised me by drawing me as Obadiah which I share here from my CAF http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=753184 I let Chris borrow the briefcase Saturday of the 2003 Chicago Comicon. I picked it up at his house that Monday morning following the show. His wife thanked me profusely for letting Chris borrow the briefcase as he evidently had been experiencing "creator's block" at the time and evidently can be quite a pill to be around when undergoing same. He surely was energized Monday for sure.