@therealsilvermane

On 12/14/2022 at 11:42 PM, PopKulture said:

I haven't seen the series. Can you recap this bit of trolling, just so I can feel partially up-to-date? 

Maybe it wasn't technically "trolling", but the She-Hulk series poked fun at the toxic masculinist fans who vent their anger online over leading female super-heroes. These types of fans were characters in the show and formed their own online She-Hulk hate group, the Intelligencia.

@drotto disclaimer: 

When I say "cleverness", I'm thinking of Phase Four projects like Eternals, Multiverse of Madness, Love and Thunder, experimental storytelling projects like Moon Knight and She-Hulk. 

With Eternals, Marvel basically green lit Chloe Zhao to make a hybrid art-house/MCU film. I loved Eternals, but I for sure can understand why a lot of fans and critics couldn't go along with it. In Moon Knight, the psychological "is it real or is it not" story mode may have been a little too much for general audiences to take. I admit Love & Thunder could have scaled back the comedy a little. Multiverse of Madness and She-Hulk are examples where maybe Marvel went a little too meta, maybe. In MoM, Marvel trolled fans by giving them characters they'd been clamoring to finally see only to kill them off brazenly like ten minutes later. In She-Hulk, maybe the series could have scaled back its trolling of a certain part of the fan base, even though they deserved it. Marvel might do well to not troll parts of its fan base in the future. Let the fans sort out the debate, just try to tell decent action stories. It was nice to know where Marvel Studios stood on that, though.

Again, I think, for the future, we may see less "cleverness" and maybe more straight forward storytelling (even though Phase Five and Six will be about the variance of time), until it's time to get clever, meta, experimental, or whatever, again. 

On 12/8/2022 at 11:30 AM, drotto said:

As further proof announced movies can change or be cancelled, look at Star Wars. The Dave and Dave trilogy, gone. The Johnson trilogy in permanent limbo. Jenkins Rouge Squadron announce with massive fanfare, dead. The proposed Star Wars story films, all gone.  Remember, Disney had announced there was going to be a Star Wars movie every year.

 

Do you actually believe the two films that were leaked in the last few months will happen?

 

Now, this may not be a fair example. It is however proof that even at Disney, much of which is announced never happens.  Yet the MCU will be permanently immune?

 

 

If you mean Thunderbolts and Blade, yes, I believe those films will happen. As they're still in pre-production, the story approach may change, but that's just how Marvel Studios works anyway. They've confessed to making the story up as they go along (in varying degrees) since the first Iron Man movie. 

I do believe Marvel Studios felt pressure to put out as much content as it could for the sake of Disney+, and that they will start to slow that down going forward. I do believe even just holding back on one Disney+ series, say Moon Knight, would have made it feel less crowded. I do believe we may start seeing a little less cleverness from the MCU and a little more old-fashioned meat and potatoes action movie storytelling, key words, "a little less", because the MCU without at least a little humor just isn't the MCU.

On 12/13/2022 at 10:59 AM, drotto said:

That may be so, but changes nothing. It may have made sense on paper, but it is clear that for the majority of fans the film does not work on any level. I know you almost blindly defend any MCU project, but it has become clear that there is a massive disconnect that has happened between critics and many fans, when it comes to phase 4 of the MCU. It shows in the declining box office returns.  It shows is lower D+ numbers.  It shows in fewer tickets sold.  It shows in reduced merchandise sales.

 

Therefor, many fans respect when an actor is honest enough to admit that the final product did not work. It is obvious critics are never going to point anything out (with the exception of the Eternals).  This movie has a 76% on RT, how is that even possible. So it falls on fans and in this case the actor, to let them know when things are not working. These criticisms also seem to be working to some extent with the current stories that parts of Phase 5 and Phase 6 are being reworked.

That's false that I "blindly" defend any MCU project. First, like 90+% of MCU projects are really good (hence its popularity) so most cheering on the MCU is because it deserves it and yes, that includes Captain Marvel (in sarcastic baby voice). Second, I'm not shy about expressing my dislike for a MCU project here when I don't approve of the final product. I've stated that Incredible Hulk and Thor 2 are unwatchable and that IM3 is not good. In Phase 3, I'm not a fan of Ant-Man and the Wasp and have stated that here. In Phase Four, I've stated here that I didn't like Black Widow. I also see poor story and character development in Werewolf By Night and believe I've mentioned that here while everyone else has been otherwise distracted by the movie's style, gore, and the novelty of Marvel monsters.

My above post is solely about the creative approach to Thor's character in Love and Thunder and how it makes sense considering Thor's ongoing story in the MCU. I never commented on the movie's story. I liked Love and Thunder, but mostly because of how the film explored the character of Jane Foster and her relationship with Thor, the true heart of the movie. I personally thought Gorr's mission to kill the gods was effectively watered down by him possessing both the Necrosword and also seeking to wish the gods dead by journeying to Eternity. I felt the movie should have picked one mode of death or the other, either Gorr kills them by Necrosword or Gorr wishes them dead via Eternity. But back to Thor, Hemsworth and Waititi's decision to play him as if he's out of his mind makes perfect sense in the bigger picture. It actually would have been quite inconsistent with Thor's past if Thor had just been a  centered stable-minded hero at the outset of Love and Thunder.

Look, if you go by audience voting on RT, 3/4 of the fans who voted liked the movie. That's not bad. It's far below Ragnarok, but whatever. On the MCU social media sites/groups I belong to, L&T has its detractors, but a majority(though not overwhelming) support the movie. Hemsworth also didn't say the character or the movie didn't work. He just said Thor had lost his mind in the MCU and that's how he played him in Love and Thunder, and going forward, he'd like to approach Thor differently, which would also make sense for the character considering Love and Thunder's ending.

On 12/13/2022 at 12:08 AM, drotto said:

I see it as him seeing it's spoon and calling out spoon. I would be upset also if somebody just destroyed the role that defines my career. I do not blame him in the slightest, I actually respect that he called it out.  Especially when you consider Hollywood is so inclined to protect itself and their own, regardless of quality.

Chris Hemsworth has stated their approach to Thor in Love and Thunder, and it made complete sense when seen in the larger MCU context. At the start of Love and Thunder, Thor is still dealing with the trauma from his past movies and has, in a sense, lost his mind a bit. This is still the Thor from Endgame but with less weight. He doesn’t seem to get back to his more balanced self until the end of Love and Thunder. If one didn’t like the other creative choices in Love and Thunder, that’s subjective, but the creative approach to Thor made perfect sense if you consider Ragnarok and the events of Infinity War and Endgame. 

On 9/16/2022 at 12:12 PM, drotto said:

I feel like they are trying to kill it.  Will leave it alone for about 5 years, then reboot based around the X-Men and recasting the originals.  This delay of X-Men to 2025 will not be the last.

Serious question: do you actually believe this? I mean, do you actually believe Marvel Studios is going to shelve Quantumania, GOTG Vol 3, The Marvels, Captain America New World Order, FF, Avengers Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars in order to just completely focus on an X-Men reboot for 2025?

Meanwhile, in actuality, James Gunn and co. are seriously shelving everything over at DC studios including Gal Gadot’s Wonder Woman 3.

On 9/16/2022 at 6:49 AM, TupennyConan said:

I used to see Captain America shield tshirts everywhere. 

Those days are gone & won't be coming back for at least a generation, if ever.

I no longer see any MCU tshirts, certainly no Falcon, Captain Marvel, or Kate Bishop attire. 

Obviously you haven’t seen me rocking my Black Panther shirt wrapped in a Marvel official Hawkeye hoodie around town this week. As someone who notices that kind of stuff, I did see a Captain America logo shirt and an Avengers shirt walking around yesterday, though. No DC shirts, sorry to report. 
p.s. Was there there even a Falcon shirt or a Kate Bishop shirt available for general purchase? 

On 11/25/2022 at 6:25 PM, Larryw7 said:

Sounds hot.

They made a nice couple, actually.

On 11/25/2022 at 4:10 PM, Jaydogrules said:

...with heaters.   

Heaters.  🤮

-J.

 

I donno, how else are you supposed to quick dry something? Fifty bags of rice? Call Dr. Strange? I suppose asking Namor to towel off was out of the question...

On 11/25/2022 at 3:30 PM, MR SigS said:

I never claimed she or anyone else said anything. I asked which body part they targeted when they did whatever they did.

Shuri targets his entire body.

On 11/25/2022 at 2:41 PM, N e r V said:

My goodness why does a objection to the major changes to the characters identity somehow automatically make you anti Mayan? It’s a dead civilization who’s decedents have as much in common with them as Italians do to Romans. I find Mayan culture fascinating and was a great study for me in college as was Roman, Egyptian and any other multitude of ancient civilizations but that’s not the point. I wanted to see Sub-Mariner closely to what he was in the comics and if they made his backstory as some white dude from the south I’d hold the same objections to the changes. If you want to make major changes to a character then create a new character. It’s been done a million times in comics with Superman giving us Supergirl or the original Spider-Man giving us the Miles Morales version. But if I pay to see Tarzan in a movie I except to see a somewhat close version and not some Hollywood hack giving his powers to Jane and trying to convince me it’s basically the same when it’s clearly not. It doesn’t mean I dislike Jane but find the experience a deal breaker for him. Not all of us are on the same page but with Disney in the future I’m voting with my wallet going forward.

I'm a lifelong Sub-Mariner fan, and I simply don't think changing the location and origin of Namor's kingdom is that big of a deal and warrants a completely new and different character. The specific history details of Namor's home have never really been that big of a deal in the comics. They're underwater warriors and they're blue, that's what's important. What's important for Namor is that he's a mutant with specific physical traits and that he had a deep hatred for the surface world in his earlier years. That's all present in Wakanda Forever.

On 11/25/2022 at 3:01 PM, MR SigS said:

Correct. I've read and heard comments stating it was his back they were focusing on when doing whatever they did to dry him out. If it was not his back they targeted, but some other body part, then I stand corrected. 

Was it his back, or elsewhere?

Emerging from a river to breach the wall of a country meant to keep outsiders from entering, then having their back dried off (if that is what they did), sounds like a stereotype IMO. It feels right up there with the pair of shoes dangling from a Harlem power line in "What If Miles Morales was Thor?"

Never in the film does Shuri or anyone else say they need to specifically dry off Namor's back. Shuri does make the plan to completely dry out his skin on every part of his body (after she theorizes that he gets his strength from water on his skin) so that she can weaken him to defeat him in non-ritual combat.

Underwater river ops is a time honored way of breaching an enemy's defenses undetected. That's how bull sharks do it. That's how the US Navy Seals do it. And it's worked out pretty well so far.

On 11/25/2022 at 1:53 PM, Jaydogrules said:

On 11/25/2022 at 1:05 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

In Wakanda Forever, Shuri figures out that Namor must also be able to breathe through his skin when it's wet, which boosts his strength. She theorizes if they can trap Namor and dry out his skin entirely, they can thus weaken him and stand a better chance of defeating him. The specific "back" thing must be something you picked up because of all the talk of slurs and stuff from the past few posts. I guess you haven't seen the movie yet.

This short summary is a perfect example of how "mind numbingly" stupid this movie was.   Well made, yes, big budget, yes, schlock, yes . 

How is this mind numbingly stupid? First, it's been stated throughout the Sub-Mariner's Golden Age, Silver Age, etc. comics stories that water not only gives him life and strength, but that prolonged absence from water weakens him. Second, it's a comic book movie. How is that anymore stupid than when Bruce Banner gets mad or night falls he turns into a green giant quadruple the size and with infinite strength?

On 11/25/2022 at 1:36 PM, PopKulture said:

And then, in a mind-numbingly perfect example of hypocrisy, you use a slur yourself: redneck. 
 
I’m going to file this away in my “You can’t make this stuff up” folder. 

On 11/25/2022 at 12:39 PM, Mmanick said:

Mojado isn't a nice word to describe someone. I AM Chicano AKA Mexican American and would be pretty PO if someone called me that.

Well, I also assume you're born and raised in the USA and that the struggles of the undocumented Central American immigrant don't apply to your personal experience, so I can imagine you'd be doubly PO'd if some redneck called you that. I don't think anybody likes to be called a generalized nickname. We all prefer to be called by our actual names.

But sometimes, if a negative generalization exists, the targeted folks can also reclaim that word so it becomes less hurtful when used in the right context. Black Americans have done that with the N word. In the Asian-American community, the term Fresh Off the Boat was a slang used to describe Asian immigrants newly arrived to America. Now, that term has been reclaimed by some  in the community as a term of endearment, especially when referring to themselves.

To turn it back to Namor and Wakanda Forever, the fact that Namor lives underwater and that it should be offensive to Latinos, Latinas, LatinX specifically because of the "w--back" slur is kind of ludicrous IMO.

On 11/25/2022 at 12:57 PM, MR SigS said:

I don't recall any stories about weakening him by specifically focusing on drying his back, but I haven't read them all. 

 

SPOILER ALERT:

In Wakanda Forever, Shuri figures out that Namor must also be able to breathe through his skin when it's wet, which boosts his strength. She theorizes if they can trap Namor and dry out his skin entirely, they can thus weaken him and stand a better chance of defeating him. The specific "back" thing must be something you picked up because of all the talk of slurs and stuff from the past few posts. I guess you haven't seen the movie yet.

On 11/25/2022 at 10:51 AM, TupennyConan said:

Planning on watching it with my teenage children today. Will they get the Kevin Bacon humor? I'd think his appearance in the special plays only to GenX. 

As long as one knows Quill adores this actor who was popular in a bunch of 80’s movies, that’s all you really need to know. Of course, it’s better if you’re a Bacon fan, but not necessary.

This is maybe one of the greatest Christmas TV specials of all time.

Here is what a Mexican-American journalist thought of Namor and Talocan after seeing Wakanda Forever.

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/black-panther-namor-tenoch-huerta-latino-representation-20221115.html

On 11/24/2022 at 7:44 PM, drotto said:

The wet stereotype is consider offensive by some, and you have made it a repeated point to call people out when they come even remotely close to crossing any line, whether real, implied, or recently created.  You also have a long history of proclaiming you expertise on subjects similar to this. So now when Marvel does something that some could consider offensive even if it is a small group, you run to their defense. You can not have it both ways. To compound the issue, they make the way to defeat him literally drying him out, so it is easy to read the negative implications into the imagery.

 

I did not pick up on this personally, and I kind of doubt it was intentional, but I have seen many people calling it out.  I am also not personally offended. I have, however, discussed it with a few close friends and family members, and they knew exactly what the what term was and what it implied.  So there is a fairly wide perception that the term could be considered offensive.  

Yes, if used in a certain context, the term can be used by some people to try to demean and belittle other people. But again, the term has also been “embraced” as a word that self-describes the hardships and experience of people who cross the border to try to find a better life. Guatemalan recording artist Ricardo Arjona and Tejano band Intocable even released a 2012 immigrant song “Mojado” about the struggles of the undocumented southern immigrant. Funny, the chorus lyrics say “Why do they need visas to prove he’s not from Neptune?”

On 11/25/2022 at 6:06 AM, Bosco685 said:

Thanks for correcting the name you misquoted. I was wondering where you were going with that.

When I think Scottish American, my mind immediately goes to miracle working Enterprise engineer Mr Scott “Scottie”.

On 11/24/2022 at 7:44 PM, drotto said:

they make the way to defeat him literally drying him out, so it is easy to read the negative implications into the imagery

This weakness is from the comics, though handled inconsistently throughout Namor's stories.

On 11/24/2022 at 7:44 PM, drotto said:

The wet stereotype is consider offensive by some, and you have made it a repeated point to call people out when they come even remotely close to crossing any line, whether real, implied, or recently created.  You also have a long history of proclaiming you expertise on subjects similar to this. So now when Marvel does something that some could consider offensive even if it is a small group, you run to their defense. You can not have it both ways. To compound the issue, they make the way to defeat him literally drying him out, so it is easy to read the negative implications into the imagery.

 

I did not pick up on this personally, and I kind of doubt it was intentional, but I have seen many people calling it out.  I am also not personally offended. I have, however, discussed it with a few close friends and family members, and they knew exactly what the what term was and what it implied.  So there is a fairly wide perception that the term could be considered offensive.  

So in your world, the way it should have gone at the Marvel Studios creative table is "Okay, someone just brought up that because Namor lives in the water and is therefore wet, there's no way we can make him of Mayan(Mexican) descent because of the connection to that "w--back" slur, so we'd better just ditch the whole Mayan Talocan thing. Let's just go back to the Leonard MacKenzie Atlantis thing which makes way more sense and is a little more realistic. It worked for Aquaman and it'll work for us. Sorry, Hispanic Americans!"

On 11/24/2022 at 2:23 PM, MR SigS said:

I hear that in the film he's seen emerging from a river before attempting to breach the wall of the greatest nation in the (MCU) world.

 

Disney loves those cultural stereotypes.

It's not really a cultural stereotype for actual immigrants from Mexico and Central/South America who have crossed the Rio Grande into Texas, as much as it's considered a shared actual experience for those ancestors and the people who still do it today. In fact, the term that Hispanic-Americans use to describe those who entered the United States by the river is "mojado", meaning wet, and is not considered offensive if used in the right context. For more history trivia, the fed gov in the 1950's coined its anti-immigrant deportation activity Operation W---ack. Heck, maybe Namor and the Talocans being people who have taken to the water to escape persecution might endear them even more to Hispanic Americans.

On 11/24/2022 at 11:49 AM, Ken Aldred said:

Always thought he was Scottish-American.

Namor McKenzie

Leonard McKenzie...a true Marvel Comics legend...Namor just wouldn't be Namor without him...