@therealsilvermane

On 11/22/2022 at 10:29 PM, N e r V said:

being a really big Sub-Mariner fan the character in BP 2 only resembles him in name

Dude, the character in Wakanda Forever is: 1) a mutant with pointy ears and wings on his feet that allow him to fly, 2) king of an underwater kingdom who hates the surface world, 3) has super-strength and the ability to breathe in water and out. Sounds a lot like the guy from the comics.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE between the MCU Namor and comics Namor is that Marvel Comics Namor has a Latin background whereas MCU Namor has a Latino background (and the name of their kingdom). Myself being a big Sub-Mariner fan, I feel Marvel Studios nailed the essence of the character, especially from the Silver Age comics when he hated the surface world.

On 11/21/2022 at 12:59 PM, RedRaven said:

The popularity and appeal of the original Marvel arc which culminated in Endgame will not be repeated. The broad world-building and interconnected characters which characterized these phases was novel and captured audiences who wanted to be along for the ride. It cannot be overstated how important the near miracle of casting Robert Downey Jr as Tony Stark served as the lynchpin around which the public anchored themselves to this journey. The strength of that character and the charisma that Robert Downey lent to it allowed Marvel to succeed with a host of inferior characters and actors who only had relevance to the larger story.

Wow, so much negativity here. And not a lot of actual perspective.

Well, the popularity and appeal of the MCU certainly has failed to be repeated by anyone else so far. And Marvel doesn't really need to repeat itself. It's already in it. The MCU is here to stay and is as cemented in our popular culture as Star Trek and Star Wars. From here on out, Marvel Studios will keep telling inter-connected stories loosely based on the Marvel Comics and fans will keep seeing them with anticipation.

Yes, RDJ as Iron Man was pretty important to it all, but I also remember Iron Man 2 almost derailing the whole thing. The Phase One solo movies were a mildly-successful mixed-bag until Marvel and Joss Whedon successfully put it all together in the first Avengers movie.

For Phase Two, Iron Man 3 made a ton of money on the heels of Avengers, but the movie was not great. In fact, if it weren't for Captain America Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy, two movies that didn't even mention Stark, the MCU might have derailed then, too. Maybe RDJ wasn't the real lynch pin. Maybe the real lynch pin was a few very popular movies amongst a handful of mixed results movies.

In the 11 movies of Phase One and Phase Two, there were four true breakaway hits: Iron Man, Avengers, Captain America Winter Soldier, and Guardians of the Galaxy. Two outright failures: Incredible Hulk and Thor Dark World. Maybe that's easily forgotten with the string of critical and financial successes from Phase Three and the two Thanos Avengers movies. 

Similarly, Phase Four has had its share of successes and not so-much successes. I would consider the Disney+ MCU launch and its seven Marvel series a huge success. Spider-Man No Way Home was an obvious breakaway success. Of the three pandemic post-China releases, Shang-Chi was a critical and moderate box office success (taking into account pandemic lockdowns, Disney+ 45 day streaming, and China's Disney lockout). Post pandemic and post-China, Multiverse of Madness and Wakanda Forever are successes, financially and critically. In other words, Phase Four really just continued what Marvel Studios has been doing since Phase One, while adding in the novelty of the Disney+ series and introducing new storyline themes like the Multiverse, the war for Vibranium, and expanding OG character legacies.

So, whomever can keep decrying the "failure" LOL of the Phase Four and foretelling the doom of the MCU, but Marvel will keep churning out comic book movies as long as Disney will be around, which means, forever.

On 11/17/2022 at 1:39 AM, godzilla43 said:

Marvel should have made this a prequal. Here is my story for Wakanda Forever:
- WW2 is going on. More scenes with Cap and Howling Commandos
- Also scenes with the original Human Torch
- Then the war disturbs Talocan and Tenoch Huertas Sub-Mariner starts fighting against the Nazis
- Talocan ask help from the current Black Panther and Wakanda 
- Wakanda decides not to help and this leads to war against Talocan
- Wakanda wins
- In the end credits there is big homage to Chadwick Boseman
- Second end credits you see Tenoch Huertas Sub-Mariner as a homeless in some bad neighborhood
- Lastly the movie ends with Black Panther will return and Marvel recasts T'Challa

If this were a writer's circle, here are my questions for your pitch:

- What is the purpose of showing Cap and Human Torch? Do they meet Namor and make it an Invaders film? Or are they just part of the background, the setting?

- If this is a Black Panther movie, what is the narrative set-up for the current Black Panther? Is he a flat character in his own movie? Is he there just to defend Wakanda? What is his story arc?

- If war, is disturbing Talocan, why doesn't Namor also wage war against America and Britain? In turn, does Namor ask for Wakanda's help against both the Allies and the Axis powers? Most importantly, why does Namor need Wakanda's help? Are the primitive U-boats and surface warships too much for Namor and the Talocans? Does something happen that it becomes too much for him?

- Why would Namor and Talocan wage war against Wakanda when the Wakandans are not even doing anything against the underwater kingdom? What happened to the oceanic threats to Talocan caused by the warring American and European nations? Does Namor just forget about them?

- So far, this seems more like a Namor story, not a Black Panther story.

- Lastly, who do you imagine will play T'Chaka's dad? Does that make T'Chaka a baby boomer?

On 11/16/2022 at 3:08 PM, gadzukes said:

Am I remembering this wrong?  I thought it was Telocan.  Of course it was a long movie so maybe I'm confused LOL

You remembered wrong. Shuri and Riri  were housed by Namor in a cave close to the surface, that's why Ramonda was able to pinpoint her earrings location. When Shuri went with Namor to visit Telocan, she had to wear a deep submersible suit. She is then returned to the shallow cave with Riri, which is where they're rescued by N'akia.

On 11/16/2022 at 9:08 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Nakia is the weirdest character. She's played narrative-ly as some anchor to T'Challa, but she's relegated to nothing other than basic love interest, it seems. Like, they fleshed-out Pepper Potts a good bit, I think, considering her screen time in some movies. They went the opposite direction with Nakia.

N'akia is much more than that. In two films, she saves Wakanda, as M'Baku states. She operates as an X-factor who is not tied down to tradition. She follows her own path, allowing her to do things that wouldn't be done under Wakandan tradition or international treaty, but what must be done.

This was most evident in the first film when she didn't care that Killmonger was king by ritual combat, but knew it was wrong and acted on it, stealing a heart shaped herb and rescuing Shuri and Ramonda.

On 11/16/2022 at 11:50 AM, gadzukes said:

I didn't buy....N'akia infiltrating Telocan.

N'akia never infiltrated Telocan. She infiltrated an underwater cave about a hundred feet or so beneath the surface. 

On 11/14/2022 at 7:27 AM, johnenock said:

Why did the audience applaud? Was it the live version?

I guess some folks feel a barometer of a MCU movie's success is how much people applaud and holler during the thing.

On 11/13/2022 at 2:58 AM, fmaz said:

As for what the did with the main story arc itself I’ll say this (in spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

I think Shuri is a very flawed Black Panther. She very much is more Kilmonger than T’Chala … and they didn’t hide that. Clearly she is trying not to be, so that will be her journey. But also maybe this will be her recognition that she isn’t meant to be the Black Panther.. and now that she knows her brother had a son… perhaps she will just hold the mantle until he is ready.  Not sure how Marvel will handle that with time jumps, because you have to figure you can’t make that kid the next BP for at least five years… so maybe that’s not the plan… but who knows. At least for now while Shuri is the BP, she has a battle she has to face to be better… which will keep her interesting.

 

Semi-spoiler....

But you know, it's been a whole weekend, so...

I feel Shuri's hero arc actually mirrored that of T'Challa's in Captain America Civil War.

I viewed Wakanda Forever a second time this afternoon in IMAX 3D at a multiplex with a packed theater. It was a better film for me on this second viewing. My concerns from my first viewing just weren't there this time, and I came away loving this movie. Shuri, Namor, Talocan, the absence of Chadwick Boseman, the supporting players including Riri, everything was perfect for me.

I just love the MCU Namor. I've always been a fan of the comics Namor, but this updated version just makes more sense in a "real" world. Whereas Wakanda was a land that never experienced colonization, Namor is leader of a people that escaped it. They know the dangers of the surface world, so their fear and hatred of it feels real.

It was fun being in a packed theater hearing the gasps and reactions to the film's many turning points. Sure, as that YouTuber a couple pages back said, there weren't really any big audience cheer moments, but this wasn't that kind of movie. The first Black Panther movie didn't really either. When the forces are fighting in this movie, there's a sadness and a "this doesn't have to be" feeling to it. The end of the film did elicit big audience clapping as the first credits rolled, though.

I did happen to be sitting right next to a guy who suddenly got so mad at the exact point of the movie we all learned who the new Black Panther would be. He just kept saying "stupid...stupid" or "so that's the Black Panther, huh?" the whole time and huffing and puffing. During the first credits roll, he muttered to his friend, "I hope they never make another Black Panther movie." It actually made the movie experience a little more enjoyable in an energy vampire Colin Robinson kinda way.

Wakanda forever.

On 11/12/2022 at 12:52 PM, ianh said:

I didn't care for BP1 and the fact it is the highest rated Marvel movie on RT from the critics is still laughable to me. It wasn't even in my top 20 Marvel movies and I loved all the BP characters in Civil War and Avengers movies. I would agree killing and not just replacing T'Challa is a mistake and yet another white superhero changed to a person of color and rewritten backstory just to appease the woke agenda. I'm pretty fed up with Marvel at this point. You don't have to poopoo on one culture and gender just to prop up another one. 

Hard pass for me on this one.

 

For me, Wakanda Forever was not as good as Black Panther in some ways, but also surpassed the first film in other ways.

The opening Marvel Studios logo and the beginning scenes of the film were pretty powerful. The flow lost a little steam for me when our heroes travel to America, a section which kind of paralleled the heroes going to South Korea in the first film, just not as good. Like the first movie, I saw an episodic nature to how the chapters of the movie are separated and structured, perhaps adding to why the movie felt slightly disjointed in the first half. Maybe Riri's intro was a little too outside the rest of the movie for me. However, I thought the last half of the movie is among some of the best stuff in the MCU to date.

As for the mid-credits scene, THAT'S how they keep it going...

On 11/11/2022 at 5:04 PM, ExNihilo said:

I feel the actress did a great job being a teenager (far better than Kamala Khan)

Woah, hold on now. In my very strong opinion, in no way does MCU Riri Williams in Wakanda Forever capture being a teenager better than Kamala Khan in her show. I mean, for me, the Ms. Marvel series was even a better mirror to the awkwardness of being a high school teenager than the Spider-Man Homecoming films. IMO, Iman Vellani simply nailed high school teenager suddenly becomes super-hero.

On 11/11/2022 at 8:12 AM, Bosco685 said:

That is not the review I expected from Magnus. He was wildly pleased with the first movie. Even recommended everyone should see that movie.

So the excuse must be he is: a) Racist; b) DC fanatic; c) Been replaced by a deep fake.

By my analysis, this particularly popular YouTuber is anti-woke and anti-gender swapping of heroes. You get that in his indictment of Captain Marvel. When he criticizes Eternals, his first critique is "It's woke!" and that he didn't want to see a particular scene (two men kissing) because that's not his lifestyle. He ravages She-Hulk for its ravaging of anti-wokeness. The two big takeaways from his "breakdown" of Wakanda Forever, besides he was bored at times, was that Marvel should have recast T'Challa (or not given the mantle to a woman) and  that they should have kept Namor's origins the same as the comics, as in, not swapped for one of Mexican descent. He seems to approach these Marvel Phase Four movies/series from a typical anti-woke point of view.

As for being bored, he said the same of Dune. It seems if he watches any big budget fantasy action movie that dares to be about something other than good guys beating up bad guys with lots of special effects, he starts to check out. I think subtlety and nuance is lost on this guy.

That's my take.

On 11/9/2022 at 2:20 PM, TupennyConan said:

 

Yes.

I'm kinda exaggerating, but I believe the Netflix Luke Cage series got less than 1% of the celebration, before during and after, within the black community that Black Panther had. Look, Luke Cage is cool, but Black Panther is the Batman for the black community, and Wakanda is its Hogwarts and Middle Earth. Now, no other super-hero or mythical place compares in pop culture.

On 11/9/2022 at 2:03 PM, TupennyConan said:

Nick Cage   

You mean Luke Cage?

On 11/2/2022 at 10:43 PM, drotto said:

Popular cultural importance and role model are two completely separate things. Yes, fictional characters can be role models to children, but once someone passes the age of about 12, I doubt most people would list a fictional character as a role model.  Important culturally, possibly,  but not a lifelong role model. Most adults, realize these characters are fictional and as such not something that can be emulated especially when they lead such overly fantastic lives. I think you consistently over estimate the importance of fictional depictions and characters to the real world. In addition, your repeated insinuation, that nothing has been done or represented until Disney Marvel has done it, as shown by your downplaying Blade, or previously movies like Wonder Woman in favor of Captain Marvel, gets tiresome.  

There is clearly a place for diverse representation in entertainment, but real life people are far more important.  Seeing minorities  in politics, running businesses, becoming famous scientists, maybe actors and athletes. These are real role models, and the ones that are essential for the advancement of minorities in the real world, not fictional characters. Popularity in entertainment is fleeting, thus always diminishing its long term impact. Real people doing meaningful things can be transformative.

Hero, role model, most favoritest character ever, whatever...

For decades, the Black Panther has obscurely existed as the main super-hero that those in the African-American community claimed, if they followed superheroes. The Black Panther has always been the one superhero who was the dream role or dream movie of whomever black actor or black filmmaker. Not Blade. Not Falcon. Not John Stewart. Not Cyborg. It's always been Black Panther. So when black filmmaker Ryan Coogler makes a great Black Panther movie featuring an all black cast and that featured story elements based on the black experience, one can understand how the MCU's Black Panther film became an important part of the pop culture identity of the African-American community. And no, I'm not virtue signaling. How many prominent black people have sung the movie's praises, stated how important it is to finally have a Marvel super-hero they can call their own? Rihanna came out of her temporary hiatus to sing the movie's main theme song because she knows the Black Panther's pop cultural mythic importance to the black community. She certainly doesn't need the money.

Yes, real life heroes are important, but so are fictional ones i.e. comic book movie superheroes. And finally the African American community has one they can be proud of and who they can call their own. And the movie also created a fictional mythical world for black audiences to latch onto the same way mainstream audiences have the all white Hogwarts or Middle Earth to latch on to. Sorry, Blade was not it. Sam Wilson was a career sidekick until now. Miles Morales is still a cartoon in mainstream media. The Black Panther is the one and Wakanda is it. Get it?

On 11/9/2022 at 12:35 PM, Straw-Man said:

as for these birds, if you think disney did not get to them for rigged reviews, you probably also think the best boudin comes from vermont.

You mean these same birds who strongly disliked Black Widow (which I agree with, a truly sub-par story) and were negatively mixed on Eternals? It just possibly couldn't be because Wakanda Forever might possibly be a good movie. You guys really are intent on seeing the MCU's Phase Four as the worst thing to befall humanity since Olestra.

On 11/2/2022 at 7:25 PM, Beige said:

If you have to virtue-signal, whilst being patronising beyond belief - at least get a relatable role model when you decide to speak on behalf of a whole segment of society

Btw, how am I virtue-signaling? I thought I was just stating reality. I mean, what world do YOU live in that you haven't realized the MCU Black Panther's pop-cultural importance to the African-American community at large? Oh, the same world that you think Black Lightning would somehow be more appealing to kids than the Black Panther.

Also, 70's stereotype wants its definition of the African-American experience back.

On 11/2/2022 at 7:25 PM, Beige said:

If you stopped telling people what their own opinions are, you'd probably get people to engage you.

 

Stop trying to define the Black Panther as some kind of racial equality breakthrough please. A role model for black people?

 

What world do you live in, that a made up character, rich beyond imagination, in a fantasy city, where everything is good and safe and clean, is a role model for African Americans?

 

If you really, really have to go down this idiotic route of making a completely made up character into a role model - and defining the people who see him as a role model by their skin colour - then what about something more realistic than a rich-beyond-measure, international jet-setting Prince?

How about Jefferson Pierce?

High-school headmaster in a deprived inner-city area with high crime rates, trying to get his pupils the skills to get an education, get work, get a long life - and help others.

I guess that's not sexy enough compared to a country ruling, mega-rich, Prince?

 

If you have to virtue-signal, whilst being patronising beyond belief - at least get a relatable role model when you decide to speak on behalf of a whole segment of society

 

 

 

 

Jefferson Pierce - for those that don't know, is Black Lightning - and I'd hazard a guess - that if indeed a  fantasy 'super-hero' could indeed be a 'role model' - that he would be a far better nominee.

The TV show at least did try to approach some real-life issues whilst set in a mainly AA suburb.

 

The thought that any comic-book movie will get kids to put down guns or drugs and go back to school is pitifully naive at best, and extremely offensive to those people who try on a daily basis to make life a bit better for those around them in suburbs facing terrible crime, profound poverty, hunger and lack of education.

 

But you virtue-signal away champ - those middle aged friends of your dressing up on facebook will make all the difference.

First, I'm not really trying to tell you what your opinion is. You posted about the Black Panther's insignifigance and "non-presence" in the MCU as if that was an absolute, as if that's the final conclusion for the character. I'm merely saying it's not and that millions of fans of the first film can attest to that.

Second, I don't give a s**t if anybody here engages me. I'm just here to strive for balance, as all things should be.

What world do I live in? The same world where a fictional jet-setting white guy who is rich beyond imagination turns into an armor wearing superhero called Iron Man and becomes the hero and role model for millions of fans around the world. Black Lightning?!? Clearly you are living in a DC colored world that ignores what the rest of the world thinks.

On 10/31/2022 at 9:30 PM, Beige said:

As a character I thought Killmonger and M'Baku were more interesting, and as actors played much better.

It probably seemed that way to you because Killmonger and M'Baku were the villains of the movie and often times the villains get the spicy lines. In past MCU films, heroes who started out as d****ebags, like Tony Stark or Stephen Strange, were allowed to play in the mud, too. T'Challa was a king and started out the film as such, so maybe he wasn't as interesting to you. But make no mistake, T'Challa was the movie's protagonist on a hero's journey to learn how to become a better king while having to overcome adversity to the throne and death itself.

On 10/31/2022 at 9:30 PM, Beige said:

Flesh out the Black Panther to give him presence and purpose, rather than mourn a character that hadn't really come to 'life' yet.

Except he did come to "life" for multiple generations of movie and comic book fans and an African-American demographic who, for decades of comic book movies, have never really had a black leading-man super-hero to cheer for other than that half-breed vampire guy from the 90's. Yesterday, I saw plenty of African-American kids wearing Black Panther costumes. A couple of older friends (black females) showed off their Wakanda costumes on Facebook. Black Panther may not have come to life for you, but he did for fans of the movie and for an American culture devoid of a leading man black super-hero other than that guy who would slice vampires in half with a sword who was hardly a role model for young African-American kids.

On 10/31/2022 at 9:30 PM, Beige said:

Should have just recast the character and moved on.

The MCU doesn't operate in a vacuum, but very much takes into account the world we live in. In Phase Four, we've seen Marvel introduce new heroes who more reflect the global and diverse fandom of the MCU. We've seen the She-Hulk series troll Marvel's real life trolls. And regarding Chadwick Boseman, Marvel Studios is considering the impact that he and the movie had on millions of fans and are treating the actor's death as if T'Challa himself died. That's been part of Marvel Studios' storytelling technique since they cast RDJ as Iron Man. In a sense, the actors are the heroes and vice versa.

Just like Captain America, the Black Panther mantle is alive and well, but T'Challa is dead, because the man who embodied him for millions of fans is dead. There will be other Black Panthers. The trailer showed us that.

On 10/31/2022 at 9:24 PM, Bosco685 said:

So the forumite that went to see Endgame 6x and Captain Marvel 2x now hates Marvel movies?

Seems that way.

On 10/31/2022 at 8:36 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

On 10/31/2022 at 12:41 AM, D84 said:

God I hope his acting is better in the rest of the film.

That was as bad as the kid's dialogue in Black Adam.

MARVEL HATE ACTIVATE!

On 10/27/2022 at 6:11 PM, Beige said:

Quite a bit of a Star Wars look about the trailer in places....

I like it!

Going back as far as the early 60's Fantastic Four adventures there, fast forwarding to the early 80's Micronauts comics, and through today, the Marvel Microverse has always been an inner-space of crazy aliens and worlds, advanced technology, and comic book adventures. Marvel Studios can literally get away with anything now.

On 10/28/2022 at 12:21 PM, TupennyConan said:

I'm looking forward to deep sadness, deep sadness like a physical hole in my chest, in my friggin soul.

Maybe that's the secret sauce, because that's the effect that Avengers Infinity War and Endgame had on a lot of people.