RockMyAmadeus

You shouldn't have been able to get a negative before 7 days....

I look sexy in the bat suit.

Wait...for WHO??

We've been over this before. That CSR talks about advertising...not matter that was once advertising, but is now research material. You say there is "no such thing as "expired" advertising" but the CSR you quote does not make any such distinction either way. Notice the verbiage in there about "the publisher."

Some can argue (and have argued, and eBay has taken this position) that the buyer was merely sending it to another appraiser to confirm what the seller sent him. In that case, he was following eBay policy perfectly. The answer to "switched copies" is documentation. Pretty straightforward. Since printing comics as a process didn't get perfected enough to create identical copies until the 90s, it's relatively easy to tell one copy from another. Morever, wear patterns serve as markers.

And for those of you advocating that "he bought a slab, he got exactly what he paid for"...well, no, you see, he didn't. He did not get a "PGX 4.5 X-Men #1", despite what the label claimed. Because PGX...unless they're totally, absolutely corrupt...wouldn't have knowingly put that book...missing two pages mind you...in that slab. You're not buying a label. You're buying a BOOK. So, the label DID NOT MATCH the book inside, and therefore, the buyer DID NOT GET what was advertised. Grading is subjective. Missing pages is not. (If it can be proven that PGX knowingly did this, then they're complicit in fraud, and should be sued to the hilt. But that's a side point.) Frankly, I'm utterly astonished that people are openly advocating "well, that's the risk you take, you rolled the dice and you lost!" with regards to missing pages. Since when is missing pages or missed resto a "too bad, you took a gamble, you knew the risk!" issue, regardless of who misses it...? That's not a "gamble"...taking a gamble means you have a CHANCE to WIN, too, no matter how small. Since when has unknown missing pages been an opportunity to "win", for ANYONE...?

And that is entirely wrong, and never should have happened.

They can't, until it's discovered, naturally. However..."ignorance of the law is no excuse." Not knowing about the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, and doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed when it becomes known. No dispute from me there in the slightest. But buying a graded book is not a magic wand that absolves all sellers from responsibility for the items they sell. Whether the seller knew it or not, that book still had two missing pages. Once they found out...that is when they must act.

It doesn't need to. It's implied in the title. Gotta read the whole thread. And no, that book was NOT a "PGX 4.5" as it stood. Had someone said "hey, PGX...this is missing two pages, please grade it properly"...then it wouldn't be in a "PGX 4.5" slab...unless they're REALLY corrupt (which I wouldn't put past Dan.)

Sorry, but the point of third party grading is to remove disagreement over GRADING, as you state....NOT MISTAKES. You're characterizing a book with two missing pages as "not turning out like they hoped"...? Well there's the understatement of the century! And, I know this is a popular misconception, but it's still a misconception: opening the case does not "void" the grading opinion. It only means that CGC (the others are worthless) considers it no longer "valid" (whatever that means to them.) But what is it that CGC guarantees...? Pretty much nothing. They guarantee that the book is genuine, and has been examined by "two professionals." That's it. In fact, the language that used to be on the labels says "The CGC holder must be completely intact with unbroken corner posts in order to be considered an authentic certified CGC book." Notice what's missing there...? There's no language about the validity of the grade. In other words, the idea that opening a case invalidates the grade is a matter of industry common practice...NOT official CGC policy. The implication is there, sure...but it's not overtly stated on purpose. If I crack a 9.6 book out of a CGC slab, it doesn't cease to be in the condition that was evaluated as "9.6" in the first place (barring, of course, additional damage. Gotta be diligent with your caveats around here!) Are you really suggesting that if someone bought a CGC book from Lonestar, and on the INCREDIBLY RARE chance that book had a coupon cut, or a page missing, that was missed, and the book had instead received a blue or yellow (or even purple!) label, that you, Lonestar, wouldn't take a return upon discovery, even though you received more than you otherwise should have on the sale, not CGC...? You would make it CGC's problem...? If you sold a $25,000 book that had a missing page that ended up being worth only $5,000, and you made that extra $20,000...unknown to everyone at the time, in good faith, admittedly!...you would just keep that extra $20,000, even though you didn't rightfully earn it, and make CGC eat it instead...? Yikes. We should all be incredibly thankful, then, that CGC has been as diligent as it is, and mistakes like this are so incredibly rare (with them), because it looks like the majority of sellers will not stand behind their books, even if they are the ones who benefit from the mistake that CGC made. Crack open those PGX slabs, folks, and document everything.

Sorry, but a professional appraisal is not a magic wand, absolving the seller from all responsibility. It's just a professional....or, in this case, "professional"...appraisal. The seller may not be at fault, but the seller IS entirely responsible, having received unjust enrichment.

I'm pretty sure the lesson is NOT "too bad you bought a PGX book...shoulda known better. Better luck next time!" I'm pretty sure the lesson here is that a seller doesn't get to unjustly benefit from the mistake, or "mistake", of a grading company, whether known or unknown, and get the "complete copy" price for a book that is missing two pages. If the buyer can prove that the book is the same book, the seller should absolutely take the book back and refund the buyer. I don't even understand why this is controversial. Regardless of the utter incompetence of PGX, that book was still missing two pages. It was missing two pages BEFORE it was graded, it was missing two pages WHILE it was graded, and it was missing two pages AFTER it was graded...unless you want to get REALLY tinfoily (I don't) and suggest that PGX tore those two pages out. The incompetence of PGX doesn't change that fact. That book was NEVER worth the price the seller got for it (again, working on the assumption that the buyer has accurately stated their case.) "Third party graded, not my problem!" -

Well, I guess if you want to keep arguing this point, I hope none of the "argument police" come and harass me for responding, but again...the CGC seal has NO VALUE. The value you believe it has is perception, true, but that perception is based on a CONCEPT...the IDEA...not that specific piece of sonically welded plastic. Again, this is easily demonstrated by the fact that you can take a book out of "the seal"...and that seal will have no value....and then put that book back in a NEW seal...and, assuming nothing else changes, that new slab will have all the value of the old slab, and the old, empty slab will have none. And you can repeat this process to infinity, because the value is in the book...not the slab. Your comparison to pre-packaged sports cards is erroneous, because those cards AND the package it comes from are made by the manufacturer...that's how they come. Moreover, the cards are 1. random, and 2. secret. The value of that sealed pack is in the chance that it might contain "the valuable one(s)." With slabs, you know exactly what it is you're buying. No secret, no randomness. Comic books don't come from the publisher pre-packaged in slabs, randomly inserted, without the buyer knowing what they're getting...although wouldn't that be a trip...? "But...apparently you DON'T know what you're getting!" someone might snarkily reply. And that's not true. The system is designed so that you know precisely what you're getting, and it is exceptionally rare that CGC makes a mistake that makes that not the case. That's also the way PGX operates...in theory....although it's fairly common to get a book graded by them with a "surprise!" inside.

This has already been addressed in previous posts. Gotta read the whole thread. The short answer is no, of course not. Grading is subjective. Missing pages? Not so much.

Totally true. Know how? Because I can break "the seal", and get it REsealed...and that NEW seal will have the same "value" as the old one. Why? Because the value is entirely in the book...NOT the seal. With your pack...once THAT seal on THAT pack is broken, it's broken forever, and can't be undone. Why? Because much of the value is in the seal, NOT just the cards.

Sealed packs of cards are made by the manufacturer, not an aftermarket third party appraiser like CGC. The "seal" on a slab has no value.

No. You should be responsible for the actual value of the book as it actually exists, irrespective of PGX' mistake. Sure you do...go back to the seller you bought it from. If you're unwilling to do that, that's your choice, and it's sometimes the wisest course of action, if not necessarily the fairest. Why would you blindly accept anyone's word for anything? They are third party for a reason. And you know why CGC has the reputation it does: because enough people DID and DO verify that they are doing it properly, and hold them to account when they do not. That's how the system works. Of course. That's THEIR obligation. But you can't hold them legally responsible for the difference in value if a book is discovered to have a missing page. They didn't RECEIVE that difference in value...the seller did! I'd LOVE to see someone try and take CGC to court over the scenario I presented above.

Agreed, though for probably the opposite reason. Of course! But third party grading isn't infallible. And no reasonable buyer expects them to be. Why are you expecting them to be? A third party graded book only improves the LIKELIHOOD that the item is what someone claims it is; it doesn't promise perfection. Clearly, you do not stand behind books that are discovered to have had mistakes in page count or resto. Again...I will continue to argue that the seller is NOT selling an inviolate "package"...the slab IS NOT an intrinsic part of the comic. The "package" ONLY has value because of the comic it contains inside. Remove the comic, and the "package" loses all...not "most"....ALL value. Why would I expect returns, except by those doing so out of spite? And if both I AND CGC missed something, and there's a missing page or coupon, then you better believe I'll take it back. I got more money for that item than I deserved; why should the buyer OR CGC take responsibility for MY property...? The likelihood of such a thing happening in good faith is probably 1 in 100,000, but that's NOT perfection, and if it happens...it's my book, my responsibility. And YES, there are even ways to properly do this with SS, too.

This... That's not true at all, and that's easily demonstrated by history. There was a time when CGC didn't exist. There was then a time when CGC was brand new and untested. CGC managed, despite a considerable resistance to them, grown into the dominant powerhouse of high grade, high value comics. They did that by earning it. Without CGC, there would be no $1M+ AF #15s, no $500,000 TOS #39s, no $250,000 X-Men #1. The times that CGC makes such spectacular mistakes is so rare, it becomes headline news throughout the industry. The JIM #83 resto/no resto/resto...? Everyone talked about that. The "creep engine"? Everyone talked about that. Missing pages or resto is so very rare that no one is going to "lose total confidence" in CGC were it discovered that they'd made a mistake like this...and, to date, I don't think they have. Their biggest problem is QC, and getting labels correct. AND...people shouldn't be treating blue labels as inviolate anyways. CGC's grading is an OPINION...one an educated populace should AGREE with....not blindly accept. It's OK to crack open slabs...really! PGX, on the other hand, has been openly fraudulent for 15 years. And despite being openly fraudulent for 15 years, they STILL manage to stay in business.

So, PGX...even though they don't own the book...would be on the hook for several thousand dollars that SOMEONE ELSE received to which they weren't entitled...? Because PGX made a "mistake" in counting pages...? Set aside the oafishness of PGX for a second. Someone got more for this book than they were morally, ethically, and legally entitled to. Whether it was caught of not, that book had pages missing. It was NEVER going to be worth that amount. Shouldn't THAT PERSON be the one who gives back the money they weren't morally, ethically, or legally entitled to...?

So, you don't stand behind the items you sell?

Those terms would NOT hold up in court, were it ever challenged, I imagine. Let's see if I can argue it in legalese: It creates an undue expectation of perfection on the part of the third party grading service, who has no financial stake in the item, and removes responsibility from the title holder, thereby creating the potential for unjust enrichment due to human error. Yes, set aside the fact that HA owns a chunk of the Certified Collectibles Group, for the sake of the argument. In other words, Heritage sells a Detective #168 CGC 7.0 for $25,000. I crack it, and discover it's missing the centerfold. It's now only worth, say, $5,000. Is CGC on the hook for the other $20,000? No! Of course not! HERITAGE is! Heritage...or whomever they represented...got $25,000 for a book that was only worth $5,000. THEY were the ones "unjustly enriched", even if by good faith error. THEY are the ones on the hook...they don't get to "win the lottery" just because CGC missed something. That's neither just, ethical, nor probably legal. And yet, that's precisely what CGC has done...taken responsibility, often at significant cost (though there are ways to mitigate that, of course.)

Yes, I recognize that a custom has developed regarding the "inviolate" nature of the slab....but just because the case has been opened, doesn't mean the book immediately disintegrates into dust (though that'd be pretty cool to see!) The third party didn't remove the page (probably.) The third party didn't introduce restoration (probably.) Those things existed before it was graded. That book was in the condition it was in before it was graded. I'll ask again: don't you, as a seller, stand behind your books...? Are you willing to say "welp, the 3rd party missed it, too bad, so sad, good luck next time!"..? In your scenario, it is a mistake. It is a mistake that didn't carry an financial liability on the third party's part (stay with me, here), because that problem already existed before it was missed by the third party. There's a reason why 99.9% of the books I sell are books that *I* submitted...and that's because I recognize that 1. everyone makes mistakes, and 2. my super anal obsessive eyes mean such mistakes are far, far less likely, on top of CGC's fairly anal obsessive eyes, and 3. I stand behind everything I sell, because *I*...not CGC, or the other, much less reputable grading "services"...am the one who owns the book, and am the one who has responsibility for it being what I claim it is. And Number6 raises a very valid point: if you were to get it back in the same way you sent it out...except now you're FULLY aware that it is missing something...then what? Sell it to some other unsuspecting buyer, and say "third party graded, not my problem!"...? That would make you now guilty of fraud.

That's funny.