RockMyAmadeus

Gah! Why would you shoot such a book??

This is silly, provocative nonsense, because you can't make a legitimate case. No one is "twisting" anything besides you. I made my point, and I supported it with evidence and reason. If you can't come up with a reasonable counterargument, WITHOUT resorting to the provocative language above, then you have no business posting in the first place. Make. Good. Arguments. Enough with the "shocked and mortified" type rejoinders that do nothing to present a reasonable counterargument, and are designed solely to inflame. Start being a scholar, rather than a bomb-thrower already. As usual, you don't do the heavy lifting of research and presentation. You operate on assumptions that you claim are proven (like "eBay has proven shill bidding by removing that account"...you don't know that. It's a decent ASSUMPTION, but it's not PROOF), and then you become increasingly indignant when someone dares challenge you. This screenshot, I assume (because you don't identify it) is from one of the Spawn #185 listings. And the answer, of course, is no, it doesn't "look legit." It looks completely manipulated. But that doesn't change the fact that you STILL have to PROVE what you're claiming, and many of the "shill bidding" accusations thrown about are about as clear as Mississippi mud. As far as "your case" that I have "no idea what shill bidding is"...again, provocative nonsense, especially after I was the one who made the VERY compelling case that it was, in fact, YOU who does not know what shilling actually is, identifying mere driven up bidding as "shill bidding." Don't just parrot back my claim against you. And don't get angry because someone challenges you. Rise to the challenge, and PROVE me wrong. Save the hand-wringing indignation for the telenovelas.

This, times a hundred thousand. Previews are PRE...VIEWS...that is, views before the actual work comes out. They are not, and never have been intended to be, taken as "first appearances."

It IS a really tough book to find in 9.8. Well over a hundred 9.8s is nothing compared to the numbers for #298 (631), #299 (671) and #300 (1043) There are only 127 #301 9.8s of all flavors. It's the demand for Spidey that drives these numbers. 127 9.8s would be a boatload for, say, New Warriors #13. But no one is interested in New Warriors #13.

That's me.

I can do that. Have your secretary call my secretary, and we can arrange schedules.

This list is a bit dated. But, if you must check out comics, Earth 2 is a good bet, and still open. Meltdown is gone. Golden Apple is still there, and decent. But all of that should take second place to visiting the Getty Museum. It's free (parking is $15 for all day), and has one of the best collections of fine art and other stuff on the planet. I might even show up and stalk you for a while. I kid, I kid. Honest.

Astonishing Tales #29 is a reprint of MSH #18 Cap #216 is a reprint of ST #114 Cap #257 is a reprint of Not Brand Echh #11 and #12 Thor #158 is a reprint of JIM #83, with new material Captain Marvel #36 is a reprint of MSH #12, with 3 framing pages Conan #22 is a reprint of #1, since the art for #22 (and what became #23) vanished Jungle Action #5 is a reprint of DD #69 Power Man #36 is a reprint of Hero for Hire #12 Marvel Presents #8 is a reprint of SS #2 Thor #254 is a reprint of Thor #159

He's gotten fat.

I've had some terrible Cons in terms of selling but never considered doing a chargeback on the booth fee. How mad was he that even attempted it? Maybe "how entitled did he feel he was"...?

One of the more telling aspects of the low quality of posters at the CBCS boards is that when I would correct CAK on whatever nonsense he was spewing at the time....and he spewed much, as many here can attest....several of those people would rush to his defense, particularly the relentlessly ignorant "shrewbeer." It was so eye-roll inducing, I had a hard time keeping them in my head.

For whatever it is worth, I find very, very few of these in the course of searching in So Cal and at conventions. The vast, vast majority of the copies I own are in the form of 20 packs, 10 packs, and collector packs. I buy these whenever I run across them, but because so very, very few shops stock back issues, especially 90s back issues, I don't run across these very often. However...the fact that many of these are available regularly on eBay is telling as to how many actually exist, and that number is probably not even remotely close to "single digits" for ANY book. There are, in my estimation, no less than 1,000 of any given issue in existence...they're just artfully hidden for now. Collectors just didn't throw out 90s books.

And it's important to note the distinction. The collector packs of the 80s are certainly reprints, but none of them were made due to demand (which is why they aren't marked in obvious ways...they weren't being sold to "collectors.") Up until the early 90s, there were, in the entire history of comics, very, very few "sellouts"...and, after the very early Golden Age (Superman #1, for example), there was almost certainly no reprints of DCs or Marvels in standard comic book format until Star Wars in 1977. And, by the nature of comic book distribution through the "ID" (Independent Distributor) market of the time, they were almost certainly not necessary. Comics, and all magazines, were printed in very large numbers, with an expected sell-through of 30-60%; unsold copies were "stripped" (either of their entire front cover, or a portion of the front cover containing the title and issue number), or an affidavit was signed, and then the retailer received credit for those unsold copies. In other words, there were, with just a handful of exceptions, always enough copies printed, from 1933 to the establishment of the Direct Market, to satisfy demand. Notable exceptions were probably Conan #1 and ASM #121 & #122. "Demand based reprinting"...that is, the quick second print...was so rare, that not even Thor #337 or ASM #252...both perfect candidates for such a reprinting...were given that treatment. There are, of course, all sorts of "pack" reprints of various Marvels and DCs from the 80s, and books like Dark Knight and Longbow Hunters were second and third printed due to demand...but there were very few books that were sellouts and prompted publishers to issue second (or later) printings of them. There's possibly Transformers #1, and possibly Thundercats #1, and probably The 'Nam #1....but all the others, Transformers, GI Joe, Batman, Superman, were just attempts by Marvel and DC to sell copies in non-standard venues, in different formats. The list above is almost certainly the program that was the direct precursor to the "20 pack" program that evolved and took shape in 1992, and the son of the "carded 2- and 3- pack" program of the late 80s. I've said this before, but it bears repeating: Batman #457, Superman #50, and Robin #1 2nd print newsstands are books that should not exist. Their direct market 2nd print counterparts were entirely the result of intense demand for these books when they came out, and these were available for ordering fairly quickly through the Direct Market system. This would have been a rather new and unexpected situation for DC, since they had not had sellouts of single standard format issues like these for a very long time, if ever. Previous sellouts, including Batman #426-429 and Detective #598-600, were easy to package into a quick TPB form, which is what DC did....but single issues? That's when they turned, for the first time since the Golden Age, to individual immediate reprints, but with the bonus that they already had a reprint program in place, so they weren't exploring an entirely new process. But 2nd print newsstand versions could not be ordered by newsstand vendors, because newsstand vendors, as I understand it, essentially "got what they got", and there was no mechanism...no "Direct Market distributor" go-between to talk to about sellouts. Sellouts just happened; if they sold out, that was it, on to the next issue, whenever it came out. But someone at DC had the bright idea....PERHAPS because of the success of the Spiderman #1 2nd print newsstand (aka "the gold UPC issue")...to simply print these up and send them out to newsstand vendors, because they thought they would sell, OR they were printed for a special type of newsstand vendor on special request, like it is theorized happened with Wal-Mart and Spiderman #1. In fact, it could be that Wal-Mart WAS the vendor who specially requested these anomalies, and may have been the only vendor that received them. Unfortunately, we may never know, because, unlike Spiderman #1, they were completely ignored for decades, and still remain entirely unknown to 99.9926% of the comic collecting public, The fact that there are so few of them available is testament to the thought that they probably DID NOT sell well, and certainly not as well as the first printings...the hype would have cooled quite a bit by the time they reached newsstands...which means they would have been subject to the same type of "return for credit" that all other unsold copies would be. I suspect, based on experience, that the following is true: 1. These copies (2nd print news) did not sell well. 2. These books were sent to a specific vendor who specially requested them. 3. Most of these books were returned for credit, through the normal channels at the time, and destroyed (or, if not destroyed, separated from their covers as to make them indistinguishable from Direct Market 2nd prints.) Could there be copies bought by readers still out there? Sure, and there almost certainly is. After all, a LOT of speculators (including myself) haunted local newsstands and sucked up all available first printings, so it's possible readers complained and were satiated when those books showed up on the newsstands. And, clearly, at least a couple of people bought a copy. But, it's more likely than not, since the second printings came out after the next issue of each, that these books sat, mostly unsold, and then were quietly destroyed, with only a handful of survivors that, by chance, managed to escape and survive over the decades. They are quite the fascinating little hidden gem.

Yes. That's how I discovered both the Superman #50 and Robin #1 2nd newsstands. I theorized that if such a strange book existed for Bats #457, it might exist for others from the same period. Superman #53, Robin #2, and Action #662 were the most likely candidates, but I've seen no evidence to suggest they exist. Batman #457, Superman #50, and Robin #1 were all tremendous hits when they came out, selling out rapidly, with second printings rushed out to meet demand (and, in the case of Robin #1, THIRD prints.) The others, however, even though sales justified second printings to DC, weren't anywhere near the sales successes that those first three were, so it's unlikely that DC saw the need to print the odd second print newsstand. That doesn't mean they can't or don't exist...it's just that it's very unlikely. Flash #41 and #44 weren't sellouts that required a second printing, so are even more unlikely.

They are a perfect example of the comic book seller who doesn't want their ability to sell what they want, at the price they want, questioned by anyone, which is why they rarely tolerated, during my patronage there, CGC slabs in the store. They're also a perfect example of guys who come off as super laid back and nice....but who have absolutely no problem and zero qualms about bending you over metaphorically and doing the deed. Unfortunate, but they just celebrated 25 years last year, so it's not like they're going to be affected by "the free market."

The buyer had an opportunity to examine the book prior to purchase. It was satisfactory then. If they wanted a guarantee they should have asked for it. I'm not defending sellers selling restored books. I'm pointing out the stupidity of a buyer dropping $5500 on something they are unqualified to assess. That's just dumb. No disagreement there. And if the sellers had expressly stated "items are as is, all sales final", then the buyer would be completely out of recourse. That's the difference between in-person and through-the-mail purchases. If you're not qualified to assess...ask for a guarantee, or at least a professional appraisal prior to purchase. If the seller balks...walk away.

I agree with much of your summary, except for asking PGX to consider any type of responsibility, or that PGX would ever be in a position of "prove to us the buyer didn't tear out those two pages." Ultimately, those two pages are torn out. It is not reasonable to assume the buyer did it, or would have motive to do it, especially since the buyer didn't crack the book, but sent it to another third party appraiser. Again, blame can't be shifted to anyone, for any reason, just because one party wants it to be. After all...if that were true, one could just say "well, maybe CGC tore out those pages!"...and no one ever has to accept responsibility. Elaborate conspiracy claims usually don't work legally. I have to go back to "unjust enrichment", since PGX didn't benefit from their mistake, but a seller did ...whoever the "original submitter/seller" is/was (and because of the grade date of this particular book, it's been assumed that the eBay seller is that person.) Now...whether or not the person(s) who submitted the book knew it had missing pages when they obtained it raw (whenever they obtained it) is another matter altogether, but theoretically, the chain goes back to whoever FIRST represented it as a complete copy (and it WAS represented as a complete copy to the OP buyer, by virtue of the title and the type of label used by PGX) is who ultimately benefited at the expense of another, and is the one who rightfully owes whatever difference in value there existed between a complete and incomplete copy at the time of that transaction. Perhaps it's this seller...perhaps it's some seller in 1963...or anywhere in between. Again...it's important to stress that expediency and practicality can certainly trump a correct process.

It certainly cost them my business, too, which I imagine they don't care about. But they sure liked to take my money. I spent roughly $30,000 there from 1999-2010, the vast majority of it from 2007-2010. That's not nothing. But...hey, that's the way it goes.

You cant now that you have opened it. You couldn't before you opened it. "But...the case was sealed!" So? Does that mean it's tamper proof? No. Especially PGX. Aside from opening a package in the presence of a notary, who is qualified to agree to the condition of an item, there's nothing you can do to "prove" you didn't "do something" to it yourself as the buyer. Every scenario you can come up with, I can produce a reasonable sounding counter-scenario as to why your scenario isn't valid. In this case...the case wasn't opened by the buyer, but by a disinterested, uninvolved third party...CGC...who has no stake in the pages being present OR missing. So, it's a stronger argument that the book came out of the PGX case was what was IN the PGX case.

As I mentioned earlier, there's a legal concept for this that I don't recall...something about the buyer, acting in good faith, is not going to be assumed to do something purposely to harm a seller without evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, a seller can claim whatever the buyer did was always done on purpose, and never have to take responsibility for anything. "This blender doesn't work." "You must have broken it." "This car has an electrical problem." "You must have shorted something." "This comic has two missing pages." "You must have torn them out." "Tearing out two pages" would certainly fall under the "I didn't do this by accident" category. And, in small claims, the burden of proof is "a preponderance of the evidence", not "beyond a reasonable doubt", which is a lower burden to prove.

Everything anyone posts should be taken with "a ton of salt"...including yours. I've been banned from forums before, and I'll be banned again, I'm sure. The banning isn't the cause of the problems. The banning is a result of the problems. It's a simple fact of life: people don't like to be criticized, utterly and entirely regardless of the validity (or lack thereof) of that criticism. Those who act in bad faith will do what they can to silence that criticism, up to and including murder. Thankfully, that's not where we have here, but CBCS certainly abuses the tool of banning to silence criticism, and are certainly willing to lie on the record about it where no one can challenge them. I have a written record of how, why, where, what, and to whom I criticized CBCS. I supported them, recognized the need for them, promoted them, and made an effort to reach out to management in private. The response to that criticism...both public and private...only proved what I, and people like StrongGuy and others, have said: there's no one in charge at CBCS, and the people with authority are WOEFULLY, CARTOONISHLY inadequate to deal with customers. They may have been perfectly suited to whatever job they may have had prior....but they certainly were not, in any way, shape, or form capable of dealing with complaints and criticism from the public, to the point that they became personally offended, which is a cardinal mistake in business. Listen...when your forum moderators openly take sides by "liking" posts banning a member...you've got a serious culture and authority problem going on. Moderators are, by definition, supposed to be neutral. But engaging in clearly partisan activity like that, not bothering to maintain even a pretense of impartiality, only proves the point: these folks were anything but neutral, and had (and have) zero business in any positions of responsibility dealing with the public. Think "not ready for primetime" syndrome. " " So, by all means, feel free to attempt to discredit the complaints as "bitter comments from banned members"...we'll see who is more credible in the long run. Too bad humans have such a perverse tendency to not listen to others until it's far, far too late, and all that's left is "I told you so."

This does not surprise me at all. It should have surprised no one paying attention.

This is one of the reasons why I take every reasonable opportunity to share my terrible experience with House of Secrets in Burbank. HOS sold me VG+-ish Avengers #1 for $600 or thereabouts in 2010. I took it to SDCC that year, got it signed by Stan (for $30!) and slabbed. I'd pressed it (my first Silver Age press job!), and it got a 5.5. Of course, this was still a year before the movie, so the price wasn't a steal by any stretch. The problem was, it came back 5th wrap married. Sigh. Took it back...but they were only willing to refund my original purchase price. Yes, I realize that it wasn't what I originally bought. It was now signed. But...it was demonstrably more valuable because of that. Still, they got a book that was pressed, slabbed, and signed by Stan...and all it cost them was what I'd paid for the raw book. So, yes, I'll talk about HOS being a restoration/problem book dumping ground, because that's what they are. They don't care, which is why I make sure everyone knows that. Has it cost them anything? Maybe, maybe not. Ultimately, that's not the point. If people who go there are aware, and take MORE precaution because of that...then it's a win. But I do it because they don't care and they actively harm people in the process. And I do it because, when I had a problem, they essentially said "not our problem. Too bad." By the way....no, that's not the only restored book I bought from them...bought a Hulk #181, too, and a handful of others. The Hulk #181? CT was in the bottom right quadrant, in the brown rocks, not the usual red along the spine. Damn you clever color touchers! So, if you ever find yourself at House of Secrets in Burbank, be VERRRRRRY careful about whatever you buy, check VERRRRRY carefully for Restoration, and COUNT PAGES.

By the way...."we're not experts at restoration detection" doesn't change the fact that the book is restored. Right...? "We're not experts at restoration detection" has an unspoken implication that follows it, which is "...so too bad. We're not responsible. Better luck next time!" Which, obviously, is unenforceable, unless it was explicitly sold in "as is" condition. Restoration is as much a fact of business in comics as non-original parts is in vintage automobiles. It's neither unusual nor rare. Provided the buyer is telling the truth, AAB&C should refund him, chide themselves for taking a restored consignment, and go after the consignor.