RockMyAmadeus

That's funny.

Disagree, for the reasons stated above. Any judge is going to look at that and say "open the container, dummy", especially given the reality of situations like this. The container is irrelevant, and has no value by itself. The book is where all the value resides. My question for you is: why wouldn't you, as a seller, stand behind what you're selling....?

Also, I think it's important to recognize that CGC has taken it on the chin and been, in my opinion, rather gracious about this when they've made mistakes. If I sub a book with a missing coupon, and CGC misses it....let's just say for the sake of argument everyone is acting in good faith, and just missed it...and I sell that book...and no one discovers that the book is missing a coupon for 15 years...is CGC responsible? No, of course not. The one who was unjustly enriched...even if unknowingly!...was ME, the original submitter! *I* was the one who got more money than that book was actually worth at the time I sold it. Not on purpose...it happens. And yet, CGC has TAKEN responsibility for these types of mistakes, and....despite BEARING no responsibility...has made buyers whole, or at least as whole as the buyers could accept. That's something to be given credit for.

The idea....that the item is a "package", and that package is "inviolate", on penalty of losing the right of recourse...is one that I do not believe would stand up to a rigorous legal challenge, in my layman's opinion. So, yes, as a seller, I expect you are liable, because ultimately, CGC's appraisal is just an opinion, and they didn't own the book. Ultimately, that book had a missing page, and was only worth what a book with a missing page was worth...not the artificial value that that copy without a missing page was worth...and you were only really entitled to FMV for the item in its actual condition, not the erroneous condition assessed by the appraiser.

Wouldn't that be HILARIOUS if the keyword spammers got taken to court and the judge says "well...you SAID to CGC it, and that's exacty what the buyer did! Judgment in favor of the plaintiff. Next!"

If that were the case, then no buyer could ever hold any seller accountable for things like missing pages or hidden restoration. "How do I know you didn't do it yourself?" would always be the answer. There's a legal principle here, but I don't know what it's called. Something about that, unless a buyer has other motive, there's no cause to assume that the buyer is necessarily acting in bad faith. Document, document, document.

Ok, that was funny. By the way...is THIS the item: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-MARVEL-X-MEN-1-1ST-APPEARANCE-MAGNETO-CYCLOPS-BEAST-PGX-4-5-CBCS-CGC-IT-/173375280518?hash=item285df8d586%3Ag%3ALG0AAOSw-UBbLFK9&_nkw=x+men+1+pgx+4.5&_sacat=0&_from=R40&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&nma=true&si=GseEzKa0y59iFEUrdbdG00hKrJw%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 If so, what happened to the $4300 price...?

That customer service representative...like most CS reps at eBay...didn't have any clue what they were talking about. eBay has frequently required, for well over 15 years, independent appraisals of items and their condition in case of dispute. I have done this many times; usually I would get a local shop to do it, and include their shop and contact information. CGC is industry recognized as a legitimate third-party grading service...AKA APPRAISER...and their opinion would be invaluable in this situation. I'm sure you can see why what this rep told you is total and complete nonsense. "Having it appraised" is one of the cornerstone foundations of determining who is responsible in a "not as described" case. Honestly...these morons who work for eBay...

All true, but the original submitter was the one with "title" to the book...not PGX. So, PGX should probably refund the fee they were paid for their worthless opinion, but beyond that, they can't be held responsible for any other amount (unless fraud can be proven!), because they didn't own the book, and have no say in what its value is. The book was what it was, and always was what it was...incomplete since the day those pages were torn out. The price, the money, for an unrestored "4.5" X-Men #1 was never legitimate, regardless of who knew what and when they knew it. Ultimately, the original submitter...and it looks like the OP's seller is in this case, as Bob found out...is the one who has a reasonable right to fair market value for an incomplete lower mid-gradeish copy of X-Men #1, and nothing more (nor less!) and PGX bears no financial responsibility other than refunding their charge for their worthless opinion.

Because you can't do that on the internet.

That's a GREAT question, and obviously germane to this particular situation. I believe that, provided the paper trail is fully documented, then yes, eBay should and would side with the buyer. And I mean, documented to the hilt, so that it's beyond ANY doubt. But without such documentation...then no.

And, if it ever got that far, I imagine a judge would look at it and say "uh...you have to inspect the item. That's your obligation as a buyer." That opening the case means the item is "no longer as received" won't fly, precisely because of these issues. The mentality....that the item is a "package" that is inviolate....cannot work, and will not stand a rigorous legal challenge, in my layman's opinion.

No. Here's why: while that item was, in fact, "PGX certified", and "4.5" is a reasonable grade, it was NOT an "X-Men #1"....because of the implication. It is an INCOMPLETE X-Men #1 (though that fact, of course, is unknowable by the seller if they didn't submit it.) There is a presumption that items that are sold must be complete and, if applicable, working order, unless otherwise stated, OR described as "as is." For example: I can't sell you a 1996 Toyota Tercel with one of the wheels missing, if I don't disclose that fact. I also don't get to not disclose if it's missing the back seats, for example, or the engine block isn't there. I would have to disclose all of that, or the buyer could come back and say it wasn't what was offered. Sure, it could be missing some cosmetic things, minor things that don't affect the driveability of the car...or, the radio might not work, or the a/c. Now...sellers don't get to use the "as is" clause unless the buyer or his/her agent has the ability to personally inspect it before purchase. So, when someone sells an X-Men #1, and it is implied that it is a complete copy, as originally issued, regardless of general wear and tear. It can even have minor, cosmetic interior small pieces missing, just like the radio not working on my Tercel. But, it is my experience that any pieces that invade ANY part of the art...even on ad pages, and especially if the missing piece contains narrative or dialogue!...almost always gets an "incomplete" designation, and rightfully so. In this case, two full pages are missing. So, then, that book no longer can rightfully claim to be an "X-Men #1", because it isn't. It is an incomplete X-Men #1, or PART of an X-Men #1. So, in this case, the title....a "PGX 4.5 X-Men #1"...is inaccurate, and not what the seller actually delivered. PGX? Yup. 4.5? Sure. X-Men #1...? There's the problem. It IS a great debate. Lots of important issues being discussed.

Provided the situation is PRECISELY what the buyer claims, then the buyer should win, and the seller, if he/she is not the original submitter, should pursue a claim against whomever sold the book to him/her, until you get back to that original submitter.

Completely agreed, but...the proper chain of responsibility has to still be followed. I realize this can get very unwieldy, very quickly, but it's the only way the system will work. PGX isn't responsible for the value of the book...they didn't sell the book themselves...all they did was give their worthless opinion. It's not reasonable for anyone to come to PGX and say "this book was SUPPOSED to be worth $5,000, but because you screwed up, it's only worth $25!!" That's not PGX' responsibility, nor could anyone reasonably hold them to that...because that book never was actually worth $5,000 (or ANY amount the market said a properly graded example was at the time of the transaction.) That book was actually only worth the $25 (or whatever), even though it was assumed otherwise. Whoever submitted that book to PGX is the one who bears the financial responsibility for the erroneous "valuation" of that book. If the OP's seller subbed it, the answer is simple: that seller never deserved that money in the first place, and owes it back to the buyer. If, however, the seller in turn was the buyer from somebody else, then THAT person was the party who was "unjustly enriched", as far back as it needs to go. And, of course, if it can be shown that the submitted KNEW the book was incomplete, and they subbed it to PGX hoping/knowing they'd miss it...granted, nearly impossible to prove...then they've committed fraud, and exposed themselves to a lot more than just the difference in value.

It did...? Or did it actually sell for a substantial premium based on what it actually was? An "incomplete" (GPA doesn't give the label number, so no lookup) 5.0 sold in March for $2,900. Assuming the OP is being completely above board, and representing the situation exactly as it occurred, the buyer paid a huge premium for this book, much, much more than the book was worth.

Sure, to which I responded that the item had to be taken out of its holder to be inspected. Even the drones at eBay understand that much. Everyone, in every transaction, has rights and obligations. A seller's obligation is to provide what was claimed, regardless of the opinion of any third party as to that item's condition. Despite what a lot of people believe, no one is selling a sealed case. That case, without the comic inside, has no value in and of itself. The comic inside is where all...not just most, ALL...the value resides. How do I prove that? Take the book out of the case, and see how much that case is now worth. A buyer's obligation is to inspect the item and make sure it is what was offered. You can't do that inside the case. I think, if these ever made their way to court, that they would be treated just like any other third party appraisal in any other business: useful, but hardly binding.

Re: grading, answered above. Some might say that was nice of you that you don't feel the seller is responsible for the items he/she is selling...but it opens you up to being taken advantage of, and PGX and their customers rely on this fact to do business. And if you don't hold these sellers responsible, then it will keep happening to others, because there's no reason for it not to. So...in a sense...by not speaking up, you're enabling this practice to continue.

No. The industry recognizes that grading is subjective, an opinion. Those who try to press claims for a book coming back a lower grade are going to lose, barring additional damage to the book at some point. Pages missing? Restoration? That's not subject to opinion. Those things either exist or they do not. It's not subjective. "But what about the missed resto?" That resto was missed...it wasn't "well, it's not MUCH resto, so we'll pretend it's not there." (Golden Age exceptions noted and aside.) "But...CGC has waffled in their resto opinion before!" Yes, but that doesn't mean the resto wasn't (or was) actually there. The second someone applies a cutting implement to the edge of a comic who is NOT the printer, no matter how little they take off, no matter how difficult to detect, that book has been trimmed, and thus restored. The issue, then, is the reliable detection of resto, not whether or not it actually exists. Grading...how wear and tear and other flaws affect a book...is subject to opinion. Missing pages, resto....those things are black and white. They either exist or they don't.

But the buyer has the ability to inspect the leaf blower for himself before buying the item. He can "look under the hood", so to speak, and test it out to see if the blower is working. The seller woudn't put it in a clear plastic bag and say "this is in excellent condition!" and then say "no, you can't open the bag to inspect it for yourself." ...and that's exactly what a buyer on eBay has the right to do: inspect the item in hand to make sure it is what the seller claims it is, which includes cracking that POS PGX slab and looking at the book. I agree that anyone buying PGX slabs should do so with extreme caution...but...if we're talking about where responsibility lies, it always lies with the seller, the one making the proactive claim as to what the item is, and what general condition it is in (and remember...PICTURES are evidence of condition, too.)

I've never had a dispute involving a cracked open slab, no. Every time I've had a dispute, I've documented the ever living hell out of it, taking 15,000 or so pictures, to make sure that no one is in any position of saying "that's not the book I sent you!" I can think of maybe once or twice someone tried to make that claim, but that was a very long time ago (maybe 2004, 2005?), and they were quickly shut down by the overwhelming amount of evidence I provided. The beauty of generally sloppy printing for decades: it's realllllly hard to find identical-looking copies in every respect before about the mid 90s. And once you have wear markers, that pretty much seals the deal. I think it's gotten to the point where someone at eBay had to make the decision, but again, I provide so much evidence, I've yet to lose any case to a "that's not what I sent you!" claim. ...but, then again, I've bought maybe two PGX graded books, ever? And maybe 3 CBCS graded books?

And that's precisely why every PGX graded book should be treated like a raw book, and broken open to inspect by the buyer. Given the long and very, very public record of PGX engaging in negligent and outright fraudulent behavior, a seller's not going to be able to hide behind "It's third party graded, not my responsibility!" Due diligence is required. If I Google "PGX comics", the 4th result is a thread on this board that discusses the very serious problems of PGX. "But what about the buyer? Shouldn't THEY be doing THEIR due diligence?" Absolutely! But the responsibility is always on the seller, who is representing the item, to accurately do so. Once the buyer buys the PGX graded book and receives it...it's now their responsibility to make sure what they bought is what they received. And if they don't...they generally lose their right to make a claim against the seller. This is all general, not about this specific case.

The seller is responsible for delivering what was advertised. "But they advertised a PGX graded book, and delivered that!" is the argument, right? Except that that doesn't create an automatic "as is" disclaimer for the seller. The seller is the one responsible to do his/her due diligence, and the implication is that the item is complete, at a minimum. If I sell a Batman #537 with a torn out page, and don't mention that, then I didn't sell a Batman #537...I sold an incomplete copy of Batman #537, or I sold parts of a Batman #537...not a Batman #537. It wouldn't matter if it was PGX, CBCS, or even CGC...if the item isn't as described, whether by the seller or the third party grader, it's the seller's responsibility to the buyer. Just because a book is graded, it doesn't give any seller the ability to wash their hands of the responsibility. And then it becomes the responsibility of the seller to go back and seek compensation to the point where the problem started. Think about this: you're selling your house. You have an HVAC company come in and install a new a/c unit. You advertise that as a selling point. You sell the house, and the buyer discovers that the a/c unit wasn't actually replaced. Who is the responsible party to the buyer, the former owner of the home, or the HVAC company? In that case, the former owner. It is then the former owner's responsibility to go after the HVAC company to make it right. Same with these scenarios. If the seller wasn't the one who slabbed it, it is his/her responsibility to seek compensation from the person who sold it to them, until you get back to PGX. Commerce doesn't work if it's "just a gamble that didn't pay off." A buyer has a right to receive what they purchased.

How does any seller know that when they send a raw book out? You have detailed pictures and scans. If you, a seller, don't take detailed scans and/or pictures, you're inviting problems. You document the hell out of it, as a matter of standard practice. You don't PUT the book in a new slab until you're satisfied with the book. This situation is unfortunate, and hopefully, the buyer has done his own due diligence, and fully documented the book in its various stages. I know it seems this way on eBay, but you really can't just swap copies and have eBay blindly side with you as a buyer.

holy moley