RockMyAmadeus

"I'll never forget...." the book was Marvel Team Up not MTIO this thread is making me want to slab my raw 9.9 And I seriously doubt anyone would have bought 500 copies of New Mutants #98 when it was new to hoard. There was nothing particularly special about the book when it came out, other than being part of the larger Liefeld New Mutants buzz, and it remained not particularly special for nearly two decades. Not the same, at all.

You can't extrapolate slabbed grades to the raw population at large like that. It totally discounts selection bias. How many people are going to bother subbing NM 98 in under 9.0? This isn't AF 15, where virtually any copy is worth subbing and therefore has a more accurate representation of how ALL copies are distributed grade-wise. NM 98 is a modern that, personally, I wouldn't bother to sub below 9.4. Lower grade, mid-grade and even lower end high grade copies are never going to be represented the way 9.4+ copies are. The census for that issue is completely skewed and top heavy. This.

It happened with Bat books in 1989, but that's the last time it happened. Excellent point. I forgot about Batmania. Captain America 6 shot up after the Winter Soldier movie came out. That was the last movie book to get a big jolt after the movie instead of before it. Please define what you mean by "shot up" and "big jolt." From $75 for a CGC 9.8 to over $200 (some sales higher) after the movie hit. There are no sales less than $100 for a CGC 9.8 after Jan 1, 2014, and prior to the movie coming out on April 4 (and that sale was April 1, after the film was in limited release in the US, and wide release internationally.) By June of 2014, the book was back down to a sale of $99, and a $76 sale on Jul 2. There are only six sales after the release of the movie higher than the $175 price set on Jan 20, and to the end of the year, while there are 28 sales lower than that price, again, after the release of the movie. Does that include the Variant cover? The Variant cover was basically a 50/50 ratio, but the cover with the Winter Soldier on it was higher in demand. I do remember high sales because I sold a copy for $175 after the movie dropped and then watched in awe when other copies were going for over $200. And of course the price came down, but the question was were there books that went up after the movie release. It went up, then it came down. The lower prices are mixed right in with the higher prices (see the aforementioned $100 sale.) It doesn't follow that it "shot up" if it also "shot down" at the same time. The reality is that the book didn't "shoot up"...it was all over the map. The variant cover is, indeed, a different story.

It happened with Bat books in 1989, but that's the last time it happened. Excellent point. I forgot about Batmania. Captain America 6 shot up after the Winter Soldier movie came out. That was the last movie book to get a big jolt after the movie instead of before it. Please define what you mean by "shot up" and "big jolt." From $75 for a CGC 9.8 to over $200 (some sales higher) after the movie hit. There are no sales less than $100 for a CGC 9.8 after Jan 1, 2014, and prior to the movie coming out on April 4 (and that sale was April 1, after the film was in limited release in the US, and wide release internationally.) By June of 2014, the book was back down to a sale of $99, and a $76 sale on Jul 2. There are only six sales after the release of the movie higher than the $175 price set on Jan 20, and to the end of the year, while there are 28 sales lower than that price, again, after the release of the movie.

It's $300 higher than some recent sales, $200 higher than some recent sales and $100 higher than some recent sales. There are also Make An Offer options. I fail to see how that is an issue. How do 1000's of different sellers price control one issue? How is the rareness being misrepresented? It is incredibly unlikely, and betrays an immense lack of understanding of comics, to imagine that there are "potential (sic) greater than 10,000 more 9.8s to be slabbed." That number is just not in tune with reality. It is also unlikely that there are "over 200,000 copies in the wild." It's possible, but with the returns rate printed in New Mutants #99 (about 37%), and average distribution (that is, copies sold via all channels) was 182k copies, with 194k at the nearest issue to filing (which would be #96, part of the X-Tinction Agenda crossover), it's not very likely that there were 200,000 copies extant by the end of the returns process, much less 25+ years later.

It happened with Bat books in 1989, but that's the last time it happened. Excellent point. I forgot about Batmania. Captain America 6 shot up after the Winter Soldier movie came out. That was the last movie book to get a big jolt after the movie instead of before it. Please define what you mean by "shot up" and "big jolt."

It happened with Bat books in 1989, but that's the last time it happened.

They seldom know what they're talking about. There are a LOT more #19s out there than 2,000+, unless the "+" means 10,000 or more.

Not for 9.8s. X-Men #266 was selling for about $200 during this year, with 64 sales. This was the weird time for "modern" slabs, because the market didn't quite know how to react to them yet. 2007 was the first really big year of modern slabbing, where books like ASM #301 sold for $970, Daredevil #168 was selling for $1700-$1900, and New Mutants #87 was selling for $300+ multiple times. Because very few understood that there were piles of 9.8s waiting to be slabbed, a lot of those early 9.8s sold for a LOT more than they would in the future. Remember, New Mutants #99 sold for $95 in 2007, too.

It won't, unless there are people too stupid to have money and they make an incredibly stupid purchase. Possible, but not likely (and definitely stupid, considering they can get them for much, much less.)

Deadpool hasn't always been even somewhat popular. He went for many, many years (1993-2008) without much notice at all. 9.8s sold many, many times in the mid 00's in the $40-$60 range. just throwing some actual data in to go with statements # of times NM98 sold for $40-60 vs total number of sales that year 2007: 0 out of 24 times (this is the point that it started heading up...) 2006: 11 out of 34 times 2005: 1 out of 33 times 2004: 1 out of 19 times So that total is 13 out of 110 sales in the time frame, so 11.8% of sales. Not sure if thats many many or just many, or a few, or sometimes.... but it's actual data. In 2006-2007 you saw Marvel start to push DPool as a character, he because the funny guy to Calbe's "straight man" in Cable & Deadpool, which later gave way to Deadpool and _(a rotating all star)__ all of which recaptured that old Kelly voice. Your forgot 2003: 2003: 3 of 7 Which means, in the era being discussed, you saw 16 sales in the $40-$60 range. I consider 16 9.8s to be many, but if you want to quibble, how about "lots"? Will "several" work...?

I see future potential for that series. Not now,but maybe a few years from now. Give her another movie and maybe skys the limit? After two failed movies and very little interest in the last two comic series, I don't really see Tomb Raider, the character ever being the cash cow that it was for about two years for Top Cow when they launched it. It's pretty much DOA, as a 'hot' property. Spelled out more clearly, what I gather from Fastballspecials post was, "Outside of an Adam Hughes cover or a funky variant, the normal issues of this series aren't worth a couple of dollars to all of the people NOT looking for them. BUT, with another movie coming up, you might be able to pull them out of the $1 boxes and sell them for $3 within a very small window." So you buy a 100 copies for $100,than sell for $300 at a later date. Sounds like potential profit to me. And how much work do you have to do to see that profit?

No, that is merchandise, not a commodity. Buying Oreo cookies, whether you buy one bag or 1,000, doesn't mean Oreo cookies are a commodity. They are not. They are merchandise, that is, something that is made for and intended to be used by a consumer. Yes, I acknowledge that people now treat New Mutants #98s in 9.8 like commodities, but that doesn't make it so.

The purpose of CGC wasn't to create commodities. It was to provide reliable grading and restoration detection so that buyers and sellers could both agree on what it was they were selling...another unfortunate side effect of the money factor. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need sonically sealed cases and tamper-proof holders. CGC could simply put their assessment on a piece of paper or label and include it with the book, so there wouldn't be a "commodity" created. That's just the unfortunate side effect of dishonesty. A service which you use. Why do you keep saying that, as if it is some sort of "well, you're a hypocrite, because you use that service, so there!"...? Recognizing and acknowledging a necessary evil doesn't make it any less necessary: if I want to buy more comics, I am forced by the market to use CGC's services, or I cannot buy as many comics as I would like. That's pretty self-evident. I cannot call a New Mutants #98 a 9.8 and get $900 for it; but if CGC calls it a 9.8, I can. I didn't create this market; I only work within its confines. I don't condemn buying and selling comics; I simply wish for, and actively campaign for, a perspective that respects the creative efforts of the artform. I am not mad at the gallery owner for selling the art; I just want the focus to be on the art, not the money it can make. Yes, that's what I just said. I'm not sure you understood my comment; you're making the same point I just made.

Only to people who don't have standards. And there are plenty of people who do comics because it is their vocation, as opposed to their avocation, but nonetheless need the income it provides to provide for their basic needs. Do you ever wonder why your comment elicited such a strong response when you made it at the time? Because you don't understand what a "commodity" is. A commodity is an item that is fully or at least substantially fungible, "that is, the market treats its instances as equivalent or nearly so with no regard to who produced them." In other words, an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold, and a bushel of wheat is a bushel of wheat is a bushel of wheat, without regard to who produced it. A product is not (generally) a commodity; a product is what you make WITH commodities, and comic books are products (though Dave Sim finds even that objectionable, and I tend to agree with him.) When you, therefore, call comic books "commodities", you not only aren't using the term correctly, but you drastically devalue the efforts of thousands of creators in creating something that is nothing like anything else on the market. Comic books aren't commodities any more than films are commodities, or paintings are commodities, or novels are commodities, or pop albums are commodities. Again, that's because you don't understand what a commodity is. You cannot just make up your own definitions for words, insist it's good enough for you, and then expect people to understand, much less agree with, you. When you say comic books are "just paper", you're saying that movies are "just plastic film", and music is "just sound" and, in one easy statement, totally dismissing the creative work of millions of people across millennia, the things that make people feel, relate to one another, experience emotion, joy, sorrow, laughter, pain, tragedy, comedy. What a drab, grey world that is, when comic books are just "paper."

The purpose of CGC wasn't to create commodities. It was to provide reliable grading and restoration detection so that buyers and sellers could both agree on what it was they were selling...another unfortunate side effect of the money factor. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need sonically sealed cases and tamper-proof holders. CGC could simply put their assessment on a piece of paper or label and include it with the book, so there wouldn't be a "commodity" created. That's just the unfortunate side effect of dishonesty.

Yes, but do you still believe in and live by that quote...? What comic book dealer shouldn't believe that? All of them. Comic books are a unique artform, a combination of words and pictures...sequential art...that tell a story that words or pictures alone cannot convey. Reducing them to "stocks" robs them of that uniqueness. It is an unfortunate side effect that comic books have become "worth money", but in this madness cycle we're in now, the speculators and money-changers are out in full force, and once again it's about little more than "what is it worth????" A quick perusal of all the forums will show that the main threads are all about value. Comic book dealers should be making converts, encouraging buyers to become readers. After all, that's what happened to me. I got into comics in 1989-1990 to make money. Fortunately, I fell in love with the artform instead. I feel quite sad for people who own comics and have never red one. You buy and sell comics right? Send books to CGC? Use GPA? How are you different? You have confused me. Not surprising. It is substantially different. Why? Because I love the artform, and if I never had to sell one, I never would. I sell so that I can buy more. It's an addiction, I'll admit. I don't sell because I can then toss dollar bills on the bed and roll around in them. That's why most of my stuff is overpriced. If I must sell them, at least I can do so for what I consider a worthwhile price. Do you know that there are many creators who ARE just here "for their health"? That they do it because they have a love of the artform, have a story to tell, and consider it unfortunate that money is necessary to provide for basic needs? I don't assume "commodity" is negative. I know it is. They aren't commodities. They are an artform. And it is terribly unfortunate that money has to be involved at all, but that's the way it goes.

Buncha smarty pants. I read comics, and I have red many of them. That's the way it will be for me.

Yes, but do you still believe in and live by that quote...? What comic book dealer shouldn't believe that? All of them. Comic books are a unique artform, a combination of words and pictures...sequential art...that tell a story that words or pictures alone cannot convey. Reducing them to "stocks" robs them of that uniqueness. It is an unfortunate side effect that comic books have become "worth money", but in this madness cycle we're in now, the speculators and money-changers are out in full force, and once again it's about little more than "what is it worth????" A quick perusal of all the forums will show that the main threads are all about value. Comic book dealers should be making converts, encouraging buyers to become readers. After all, that's what happened to me. I got into comics in 1989-1990 to make money. Fortunately, I fell in love with the artform instead. I feel quite sad for people who own comics and have never red one.

Yes, but do you still believe in and live by that quote...?

No, your instincts are correct, rfoiii is one of the biggest assss-holes on this board. And unlike NWO, rfoiii posts anonymously because he is a coward. Rfoiii adds nothing to this board, absolutely zero. All mouth, no spine. Yeah, you gotta give SOT (NWO) credit...at least he's open about who and what he is. He may be a little off-kilter much of the time, but he's certainly an open book about it. Yup, his picture with the Purple-Clad one is unbelievable :thumbsup: "Comics are a commodity, thank god!" And I love when rfoiii says "you don't know me, you don't know my experience, etc". You're right, we don't know you rfoiii, you're too much of a pussy to give us that info. Yeah, you gotta love the folks to whom it's about nothing but the $$$. Or, well, maybe not.

How would you go about proving such a claim....?

Why not apply the same logic to AF 15, or TEC 27, Action 1...? What about Hulk 1 or FF 1? It is a ridiculous speculative question whose answer will mirror the preferences stated before. We get it, you sell a lot of NM98s. Congrats! What does that have to do with the value of it long-term relative to the value of TMNT 1 long-term? You provide no other context other than, "I'm special because I sell comics and say so" and "lots of people are buying NM98 right now." Honestly, your points are very arrogant and self-serving. Calling the kettle black are yea. Maybe. However, I am not the one going around touting that I own a comic shop and therefore my word is law on comics. :shrug: I also have no stake in the resale value of any of these comics while you do. If anything you stating that you sell a ton of NM 98 and then vehemently arguing that NM 98 is the best book to buy is more than a little self-serving. It even boarders on unethical. Please never compare me to a comic book store owner again. People should invest in what they believe in right? Of course yes. That makes no sense if you ask someone what to buy and they tell you that is unethical. I can't keep NM 98's in stock that is the reality as of 3/1/16. So by telling you this that boarders on unethical? No one would agree with that. Come on dude...... If you were a collector and came to me and had 5k to spend and you were either going to buy my NM 98 CGC 9.8 for $800 or my TMNT #1 CGC 9.4 for 5k I would honestly tell you buy the NM #98. I understand we don't live in a what if reality, but all things being equal NM #98 right now is most important copper age book. (even though I kinda consider it a Modern book). I can't have these conservation with you or anyone going forward if you be honest and just admit the main reason TMNT #1 is worth what it is is because of the print run. Its a good book that benefit from a low print run same as Walking dead #1. Why is that not logical to people? (yes I am trying to keep this friendly and I do realize you love TMNT's but also realize I have no love for Deadpool or TMNT just giving my honest opinion of what I see.) Because the millions of fans all over the world mean something to the value of TMNT 1. Print run IS important, but it is not the only factor. I think some of you really over estimate the overall world popularity of TMNT. Transformers is more popular but you don't see #1 selling for 5k because of the print run. Mix a black cover on cheaper paper with a low-print run with marketable characters of course it will make for a valuable book. If it had the same print run as NM 98 it would be selling at the same levels or a tad less. I am not insulting the book.....relax. I don't see anyone thinking you're "insulting" the book, or being "defensive." You're making some entirely unsubstantiated claims, and people are rightly refuting those claims, and you're insulting THEM by saying they're "being defensive" just by correcting your misinformation. Low Print is the main reason TMNT #1 is worth it's GPA values. So, why isn't Amazing Man #26, by all accounts one of the rarest Golden Age books that still exists, worth more than Action Comics #1? Why isn't Suspense Comics #3, another prime rarity, worth more than Detective Comics #27? No, the main reason TMNT #1 is worth its GPA values is because the Turtles are tremendously popular. It's supply AND demand. There are many comics that are just as rare, and rarer, than Turtles #1, but aren't worth $50.

I'm glad we can finally agree on something.

Why not apply the same logic to AF 15, or TEC 27, Action 1...? What about Hulk 1 or FF 1? It is a ridiculous speculative question whose answer will mirror the preferences stated before. We get it, you sell a lot of NM98s. Congrats! What does that have to do with the value of it long-term relative to the value of TMNT 1 long-term? You provide no other context other than, "I'm special because I sell comics and say so" and "lots of people are buying NM98 right now." Honestly, your points are very arrogant and self-serving. Calling the kettle black are yea. Maybe. However, I am not the one going around touting that I own a comic shop and therefore my word is law on comics. :shrug: I also have no stake in the resale value of any of these comics while you do. If anything you stating that you sell a ton of NM 98 and then vehemently arguing that NM 98 is the best book to buy is more than a little self-serving. It even boarders on unethical. Please never compare me to a comic book store owner again. People should invest in what they believe in right? Of course yes. That makes no sense if you ask someone what to buy and they tell you that is unethical. I can't keep NM 98's in stock that is the reality as of 3/1/16. So by telling you this that boarders on unethical? No one would agree with that. Come on dude...... If you were a collector and came to me and had 5k to spend and you were either going to buy my NM 98 CGC 9.8 for $800 or my TMNT #1 CGC 9.4 for 5k I would honestly tell you buy the NM #98. I understand we don't live in a what if reality, but all things being equal NM #98 right now is most important copper age book. (even though I kinda consider it a Modern book). I can't have these conservation with you or anyone going forward if you be honest and just admit the main reason TMNT #1 is worth what it is is because of the print run. Its a good book that benefit from a low print run same as Walking dead #1. Why is that not logical to people? (yes I am trying to keep this friendly and I do realize you love TMNT's but also realize I have no love for Deadpool or TMNT just giving my honest opinion of what I see.) Because the millions of fans all over the world mean something to the value of TMNT 1. Print run IS important, but it is not the only factor. I think some of you really over estimate the overall world popularity of TMNT. Transformers is more popular but you don't see #1 selling for 5k because of the print run. Mix a black cover on cheaper paper with a low-print run with marketable characters of course it will make for a valuable book. If it had the same print run as NM 98 it would be selling at the same levels or a tad less. I am not insulting the book.....relax. I don't see anyone thinking you're "insulting" the book, or being "defensive." You're making some entirely unsubstantiated claims, and people are rightly refuting those claims, and you're insulting THEM by saying they're "being defensive" just by correcting your misinformation.