RockMyAmadeus

Deadpool outclasses that book. Same price tag NM 98's would sell much faster. Only reason TMNT #1 is worth that much is of course because of the low print run. I can't agree with any of this. Deadpool is hot right now, that's all. The Ninja Turtles are a global success and have been for decades. You don't have to agree, just know you don't do this for a living so I don't have agree with you either. So you are an expert on the matter because more people ask about books that are very well known to be more affordable than a TMNT #1? Action #1 is pretty popular, how many times are you asked about a price on one of those? Before I humor you why do you think TMNT #1 is vastly worth more than the list below? ASM 300 NM 98 DD 168 WD #1 Bat 12 The obvious smaller print run plays a factor as does the Turtles being a far more common household name than the majority of the characters/books you've listed. That is the only factor. So not sure why people get so defensive about TMNT#1 TMNT #1 is a good book just not a book I would consider now more important than some other copper key books. If TNMT #1 had the same print run as NM 98 and you had them both side by side in CGC 9.8 with similar values you can bet NM 98 would outsell TMNT #1. That is my point. The print run is not the only factor. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are known and loved by many globally and have been for decades. Deadpool is a blip on the screen in comparison. To feel decades of being cherished would be outsold by a trend isn't something I will agree with either. Deadpool was more popular in the comic book world well before the movie. Print run is 110% the only factor. TMNT yes has a couple more terrible POS movies, but Deadpool after this monster move hit (which just passed CAP 2 Winter Solder at the box office) has just started his rise to an A player. Ryan Reynolds did to Deadpool what RDj did to Iron Man. I have no long-term love for either of these characters for my own collection. This is my personal account of dealing these books for the past 10 years. Oh, just stop now. You're being silly. Print run is not "110% the only factor", self-evidently, or my Strangers in Paradise #1 9.8...with the same print run as Turtles #1...would have sold for 10 times what it sold for. Obviously, the strength of value is in their popularity. You have posted, multiple times, a hoard of New Mutants #98 slabs, which you admit you are selling, so your motives aren't pure. Of course you would want to hype the book, even if you're not aware that that's what you're doing. Yes, Deadpool is certainly enjoying his moment in the sun...but Turtles have had their moments, too, and likely will again. If we want to compare, Turtles have been more popular, for a greater amount of their history, than Deadpool has, by a long mile. You, being the age you are, of course wouldn't remember that about Turtles, but to say that they had a "couple more POS movies", when the Turtles are a billion dollar+ franchise just in film, proves you don't really understand what you're saying...again.

Deadpool outclasses that book. Same price tag NM 98's would sell much faster. Only reason TMNT #1 is worth that much is of course because of the low print run. I can't agree with any of this. Deadpool is hot right now, that's all. The Ninja Turtles are a global success and have been for decades. You don't have to agree, just know you don't do this for a living so I don't have agree with you either. "Doing something for a living" does not mean that one has accurate information and can relay that information in a meaningful way. After all...just because someone works at the Gap doesn't mean they understand the difference between organic cotton and polyester.

Deadpool outclasses that book. Same price tag NM 98's would sell much faster. Only reason TMNT #1 is worth that much is of course because of the low print run. John are you talking outta your azz again? NM 98 outclasses TMNT #1? I don't know why people have such a hard time admitting that the prices for TMNT #1 are heavily influenced by the low print run and census numbers. John is absolutely right in that if it had similar numbers to NM98 it would sell for much much less. Since the comic comparison isn't possible due to the vast inequity in available copies, look at the movies for a comparison of "demand". The last TMNT grossed just under $500M globally. Deadpool is at $609M and still chugging strong, despite having an R rating which makes it less available to the population than TMNT. Will probably end up somewhere in the $800-900 range. You tell me who is a bigger global success TNMT cartoons run 12 times a day. My kids watch about an hour of turtles a day. My 4 year old calls me dude. I'm going to guess they sell a lot more toys than Deadpool. More clothing. More coloring books and other krap. Surely my 2 and 6 year old that watches the cartoons,reads the comics,has TMNT clothes,bedding, and just about every toy there is will disagree too! My son LOVES the cartoon, especially the recent episode where they enter Mikey's "psyche" and his core manifests itself as a child. My son calls it the "baby Mikey" episode and asks to watch it at least once a day among all the other things (Paw Patrol, Cars, Toy Story, Spiderman, etc). In fact, because he loved the cartoon so much, we have a ritual where I record all the new episodes and we sit down and watch them each week together. Its fun! FYI - this current cartoon version debuted in 2012, a full two years before the latest movie "resurrected the franchise..." You are right, everyone is buying their little kids $10K comic books because the turtles are huge. Prices would not fall if there happened to be 2,000 9.8s on the census because we would just have more 4 year olds running around with slabs of TMNT #1 clutched in their grubby little hands. You make zero sense. 1 - TMNT has been a cornerstone of pop culture and kids media for decades (movies, cartoons, tv shows, action figures, video games, comics, books, stickers, school supplies, stuffed animals, other toys, etc). 2 - Current adults grew up with TMNT and are now at a buying age to recapture a nostalgic piece of their youth with TMNT 1. 3 - TMNT 1 (first print) had a small print run, making it "rare" relative to other comics. 4 - TMNT is still popular today, making it a "safer" investment moving forward because the children of today become the buyers of tomorrow. These are are all true statements and they are reasons why TMNT 1 is worth what it is worth. What is your issue? We are saying TMNT #1 while I agree is a solid book the reason it is worth more than 1k in CGC 9.8 is because of the print run ONLY. Listen I make my living buying/selling/grading, and attending almost every major comic book convention for the last 10 years so I am telling you in the comic book world NM 98 blows TMNT #1 out of the water in term of popularity. I can name other comics post 1980 that will get more questions asked about pricing than a TMNT #1. I grew up loving the TMNT when I was younger, but Deadpool growth has just begun in pop culture. ASM 300 NM 98 Walking Dead #1 Batman Adventures 12 All more important books than TMNT #1. Just because a book is worth more doesn't mean the book is more important. I am sure you will disagree, but what do I know I only make my living doing this. I have sold every book we are discussing multiple times in all HG's. Every time I find a TMNT #1 I can't wait to sell it and buy other books with that money. Oh boy.

Oh, and since we have parallel conversations running, I'll just add this: The Turtles WERE dead from 1993 to about 2004. No regular series (aside from that awful Larsen series), no other media. Dead.

Sure. I bought a few during this time period; as soon as I come across the info in my Paypal account, I'll post it. Yes. Look at the GPA results...a 9.6 sold for $10. 22 9.6s sold for $25 or less, which is essentially break even (meaning, the book itself has no value, you're just paying for the slab.) And a whole lot more sold for $25-$35, too. The book just wasn't on anyone's radar. For comparison, #87 performed substantially better during this period, and it, too, wasn't any great shakes at the time. Well, far be it from me to not grant your wish. What is $10 for this book? But, back then, it WAS something, which is why it generated the responses it did: "what? People are paying TEN DOLLARS for that??! "

Deadpool hasn't always been even somewhat popular. He went for many, many years (1993-2008) without much notice at all. 9.8s sold many, many times in the mid 00's in the $40-$60 range. Also, books like Hulk #181 and ASM #300 have been readily available in high grade (relative to the to the timeframe), and have still commanded solid prices. You're correct, but I didn't mean Deadpool has been hugely popular (or valuable), just that he's never really gone away and always seemed to have some collectibility... Which is why the book has been slabbed in relatively high numbers I'd imagine. That would be incorrect. Deadpool didn't have a regular series until 1997, and then, sporadically from 2001-2008 (and Agent X wasn't *really* Deadpool.) He hasn't had any collectability until 2008. As late as 2007, you could buy Liefeld New Mutants in lots, including #98, for $5-$10 plus shipping (minus #87, usually.) We can't re-write history. and Deadpool, outside of a small, short blip in 1993 for his first mini, was dead as a doornail in terms of back issue desire until 2008 or so. Lots of characters are published for which there is little or no demand for their first appearances. That may seem strange at this time, but it has been true for most of the history of comics as collectibles. There really was a time when people enjoyed reading new She-Hulk comics, for example, and didn't go loopy over her first appearance. Or Spider-woman, or Alpha Flight, or Nick Fury, or Lobo, or Cloak & Dagger, etc etc. And yet, both of those books are readily available in high grade condition as verified by the census (your criteria) but have also sustained value while adhering to the supply and demand rule (also your criteria.) Your memory is different from mine, but perhaps it's better than mine too. I remember Deadpool popping up pretty often, and of course, much more often in the period you suggest it all started to heat up in. Don't need to rely on memories, when you have sales data. The high price for 9.8s for several years in the 00's was $150-$180. During that time, multiple copies sold in the $40-$60 range, with a low of $40. The high price for a 9.6 during that time (2002-2007) was $85. The low was $10. It performed better than, say, #97 or #99, but not by much. In fact, the high for a 9.8 #99 in that time frame was $95....higher than #98. No doubt, which is why concrete sales data is so important. But that wasn't your criteria. You're not going to find an identical book to NM #98 represented on the census; every book is essentially unique. Your criteria was "Is there a similar big key that has been able to sustain value and adhere to the supply and demand rule while being readily available in high grade condition as verified by the census?" and the answer is yes, with ASM #300, Hulk #181, and a few others. If you meant "identical", rather than "similar", you won't find it. However, there IS one book that has very similar numbers, and has sustained its value, and that is Wolverine Limited #1, which says quite a bit, since it's a good 8.5 years older than NM #98. Make no doubt about it: there are millions upon millions of comics out there that could have similar numbers on the census, but do not, because they're not worth slabbing. We're only beginning to see the foundation of the census start to get really firmed up. I don't know what you're talking about here. I quoted your criteria verbatim. The entire conversation is preserved in this quote chain, perhaps you could point me to what you're referring to...? I said "relative to the timeframe", which has to do with levels of preservation, not ease of finding. "High grade" for Hulk #181, since it's a 1974 book, and still a while before people started to bag and board everything that instant it came out, would be around 9.4. Indeed.

Snicker Milky Way

Deadpool hasn't always been even somewhat popular. He went for many, many years (1993-2008) without much notice at all. 9.8s sold many, many times in the mid 00's in the $40-$60 range. Also, books like Hulk #181 and ASM #300 have been readily available in high grade (relative to the to the timeframe), and have still commanded solid prices. You're correct, but I didn't mean Deadpool has been hugely popular (or valuable), just that he's never really gone away and always seemed to have some collectibility... Which is why the book has been slabbed in relatively high numbers I'd imagine. That would be incorrect. Deadpool didn't have a regular series until 1997, and then, sporadically from 2001-2008 (and Agent X wasn't *really* Deadpool.) He hasn't had any collectability until 2008. As late as 2007, you could buy Liefeld New Mutants in lots, including #98, for $5-$10 plus shipping (minus #87, usually.) We can't re-write history. and Deadpool, outside of a small, short blip in 1993 for his first mini, was dead as a doornail in terms of back issue desire until 2008 or so. Lots of characters are published for which there is little or no demand for their first appearances. That may seem strange at this time, but it has been true for most of the history of comics as collectibles. There really was a time when people enjoyed reading new She-Hulk comics, for example, and didn't go loopy over her first appearance. Or Spider-woman, or Alpha Flight, or Nick Fury, or Lobo, or Cloak & Dagger, etc etc. And yet, both of those books are readily available in high grade condition as verified by the census (your criteria) but have also sustained value while adhering to the supply and demand rule (also your criteria.)

There are even grey tones into the 80's... And the classics:

Deadpool outclasses that book. Same price tag NM 98's would sell much faster. Only reason TMNT #1 is worth that much is of course because of the low print run. How many copies of each do you have to sell?

Deadpool hasn't always been even somewhat popular. He went for many, many years (1993-2008) without much notice at all. 9.8s sold many, many times in the mid 00's in the $40-$60 range. Also, books like Hulk #181 and ASM #300 have been readily available in high grade (relative to the to the timeframe), and have still commanded solid prices.

Without rancor, if you don't want to read what people have to say, you're not forced to. There's a function that makes sure you don't see what certain people post, so they don't interrupt your enjoyment. Why not use it? No one has to read anything they don't want to, and complaining about what other people post is as bad as you claim those people are being...it's just as distracting. "What I want to talk about rules, what you want to talk about sucks"...? That said, for my part, I only respond to these discussions. I don't initiate them (in an off-topic manner, at least.) I can't help but notice you didn't complain when Jay posted...why not? Had the straw not yet broken your camel's back?

Who? "Unnamed sources" are meaningless; this isn't state secrets we're talking about, here. Let these unnamed sources name themselves, or they carry no weight. I can say "I've gotten numerous PMs from Marvel management that state that the print run of this book was 1,725 copies", but that means nothing if I am unwilling or unable to cite the source, so that the source can be verified. Until then, it's all either speculation, or invention. (Beyond that, it is absolutely absurd to think that Marvel printed ANY book limited to only 225 copies. Just absurd. If you have proof of this, by all means, provide it. Marvel has NEVER, EVER produced a KNOWN variant in those numbers, EVER, so why would they do it with a random 1:100 incentive, for their flagship title no less?) Floated by who? According to who? Where have these reports been reported? After all, if you're going to question me...and rightly so!...on the X-Men #510 sketch story, then you ought to be questioned about this story. I tend to believe the X-Men #510 story, because I have heard it from multiple, unconnected sources. The only people I've heard this about the #667 from is you, and perhaps those connected to this debate here. And suppose Marvel did exactly that. Suppose they printed 3,000 of them? They're both suppositions, and without concrete evidence, neither is more valid than the other, and here's the kicker: there's precedent for printing 3,000 copies (whether they are released or not), while there is NO precedent for printing "a single case." So, you have the Marvel Mailer that is mentioned here: http://marvel.com/news/comics/16250/sneak_peek_gabrielle_dellotto_amazing_spider-man_667_variant "Retailers should check the Marvel Mailer for information about this variant cover..." ...? No, I don't. All of the above is supposition. It might be accurate, but there's no way to prove it, which makes it just interesting theory, but certainly nothing anyone can say "yes, this is exactly what happened." You promised research, you promised new information, and you didn't deliver. That's the thing, innit? We don't know if it's ever happened or not, because I daresay no one's ever had cause to look before. But here's the kicker: it doesn't change anything, because it's not proof. I can make just as compelling an argument that this turn of events INCREASED the orders for the incentive than would have been otherwise, and it would be just as valid, as your argument that it DECREASED those orders. You are very willing to leap to conclusions when it supports your pre-determined conclusions, and so unwilling to listen to much, much weightier evidence when it doesn't. How do you know that "a printer will change a cover plate for the cost of around $500"? Because one guy who claimed to be in the industry said so? To forestall your inevitable objections, I'm not disputing that. I don't know. I AM, however, challenging it. Why? Because if Marvel sold "225 copies", at a net price to Diamond of $1.60/copy (say, a standard 60% off discount), then Marvel only made $360 for the entire affair. $360 is LESS THAN $500. Dell'Otto was CERTAINLY paid more than $360 for that cover. "But, they might have sold more copies of the regular version as a result, to offset the cost of the variant!" Perhaps. But that's the unfortunate part of incentives: there's no real way to track how well they work. Marvel does them because they believe they work, and they have some evidence to prove that...but nothing really concrete, across the board. "Highly sought after" and "extremely expensive" are functions of the market, not the way this book was produced. There are plenty of books which are much rarer than this book which aren't highly sought after, nor extremely expensive, though they are certainly impossible to find. But we don't know what Marvel did, you haven't shown any of the "new research" you promised, and we're still where we were.

yes.

Who? "Unnamed sources" are meaningless; this isn't state secrets we're talking about, here. Let these unnamed sources name themselves, or they carry no weight. I can say "I've gotten numerous PMs from Marvel management that state that the print run of this book was 1,725 copies", but that means nothing if I am unwilling or unable to cite the source, so that the source can be verified. Until then, it's all either speculation, or invention. (Beyond that, it is absolutely absurd to think that Marvel printed ANY book limited to only 225 copies. Just absurd. If you have proof of this, by all means, provide it. Marvel has NEVER, EVER produced a KNOWN variant in those numbers, EVER, so why would they do it with a random 1:100 incentive, for their flagship title no less?) Floated by who? According to who? Where have these reports been reported? After all, if you're going to question me...and rightly so!...on the X-Men #510 sketch story, then you ought to be questioned about this story. I tend to believe the X-Men #510 story, because I have heard it from multiple, unconnected sources. The only people I've heard this about the #667 from is you, and perhaps those connected to this debate here.

I appreciate the effort. However, none of the information presented here is new. All of these links you've provided have all, at one time or another, been part of the conversation. I red your entire post carefully, and gave it fair consideration, but it doesn't contain anything that hasn't already been discussed before. And, you repeat some of the same inaccuracies, like "Keep in mind that Spidey sales were in the doldrums during this period." Spiderman #667 had the 6th highest orders sold through Diamond for that month. ASM #660, #661 and #662 were the 10th, 11th and 13th highest sellers for May of 2011. How is that "in the doldrums"? http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2011/2011-08.html Also: "had already prompted nearly 150 retailers to increase their orders significantly in order to qualify for the custom variant covers (minimum 500 copies had to b ordered to qualify for that unique incentive)" Yes, but those 500 copies were advertising, and only 140 retailers participated, meaning several hundred others did not. Having those copies around didn't mean any particular retailer would have been "fatigued" with ordering the next issue, which was a different scenario. They didn't "increase their orders significantly"; they put $1,000 or so into an ad campaign. The smaller retailers that participated didn't have to "order heavy" on the next issue; if they were big enough to order 500 copies of the store variant, they certainly weren't going to be having too many problems ordering 100 copies of the regular #667. The reasoning just doesn't follow. You also continue to attempt to tie the DISTRIBUTION ratio with the PRINT RUN, which you cannot do, I cannot do, no one can do, because distribution ratios ARE NOT PRINT NUMBERS. This helps to explain why the #667 Dell'Otto was so lightly ORDERED, and why it's difficult to find at this time....but it doesn't (necessarily) mean that it was low PRINTED (and it doesn't mean it wasn't, either.) Retailers order new comics each and every week. It is their job. Therefore, the FOC for ASM #667 moving back one week would have been noticed by them, generally, in the course of business, if they were simply paying attention. Obviously, many retailers were, because they ordered them. That it was "12th hour" doesn't change that. The theory that "oh, well, I have enough of the FF variant, so I don't need to order more of the regular to qualify for the Dell'Otto" doesn't fly. If a retailer had already ordered 100 copies of the regular book, they simply added the Dell'Otto, in whatever quantity, to their order: and they had an additional week to do so. And, if they hadn't ordered enough, since the FOC was changed, they had another week to adjust their orders as they saw fit. This wasn't some super special, sneaky variant program that was hidden to all but the most aware retailers. Marvel was TRYING to get retailers to order more copies, so they moved the FOC to accommodate that AND lowered the price of the regular books to do so. It's not as if having the news on Diamond AND Marvel.com's news page is really a secret. Therefore, if retailers had decided to "overorder" the FF variant, just because it was a variant, they had another week to decide if they wanted to change their minds, since that variant didn't qualify for the 1:100. But, if a retailer ordered, say, 160 copies of ASM, and ordered 80 copies of the regular, and 80 copies of the variant, they had another week to change that to 100 and 60, to qualify for the Dell'Otto...so, far from being a "last minute" thing, they actually were given more time to shuffle their orders around, if they wanted to....and, of course, many retailers managed just fine. Variants are added to the schedule all the time, and retailers manage to order them. This wasn't really any different. With those price reductions, they really had nothing to lose...meeting the threshold was now easier, since the price made the quantity needed to qualify difference an essential wash. Then there's this: Where does that number come from? Were there only 700 qualifying orders? If so, where do you get that information? And this: According to who? How can you jump to that conclusion, that it was to "no avail"? You don't have any idea how that incentive affected orders. And it was NOT "after the FOC"...it was the same day AS the (original) FOC, meaning the retailers still had that day to order according to the original FOC. You see, Marvel doesn't CARE whether they sell X amount of the regular cover, or Y amount of the variant cover. They are just trying to sell COPIES, period. It's not as if Marvel is paid differently depending on which cover sells more. Marvel is not competing with itself. Your reasoning doesn't follow. You say you've never seen this happen with any other book, that this is a unique circumstance with this book...but how do you know? And none of this, of course, has any bearing on the quantity that Marvel actually printed. I was hoping for new information. You led us to believe there was new information. Unfortunately, there isn't any presented here. All good information, to be sure, but nothing new, and nothing which gets us any closer to the truth about this book than we were before. You've started with a conclusion, and then built an argument to support that conclusion, instead of coming at it with an open mind and letting the facts tell the story as it really is. Interesting theory, but far too many holes. There's still a piece missing that remains to be seen, which is this: "Retailers should check the Marvel Mailer for information about this variant cover..." From the Marvel link above. I would like to see that.

I had someone hammer my "shipping time" DSR...which really mattered then...because they paid on Monday, Jan 20th, 2014 (a federal holiday), I shipped the book on Wednesday, Jan 22 (one business day), and they received it on Saturday, Jan 25, complaining that it "took too long." True story. 1959ed09 RMA purchase one of these: It will really cut down on your snail-like shipping times. 5 days to get his book, poor kid You would think, knowing there was a holiday AND a Saturday that week, I would have shipped the book before I even listed it. Stupid RMA! When will I ever learn? Eventually, we'll be able to teleport on the quantum particle level. and THEN what is the USPS going to do, huh??

I had someone hammer my "shipping time" DSR...which really mattered then...because they paid on Monday, Jan 20th, 2014 (a federal holiday), I shipped the book on Wednesday, Jan 22 (one business day), and they received it on Saturday, Jan 25, complaining that it "took too long." True story. 1959ed09

Deadpool is the new Shaun Cassidy.

Ok, that was funny.

Clearly you can't be trusted. I avoid your sales threads and I'm sure I'm not alone. +1 (Lack of full disclosure from a greedy flipper who rationalizes away scenarios = Ignore) Speaking of ignore, it's always interesting seeing who has you on ignore, especially when you don't know of any specific issue or problem between the two of you, and you've done business with before and met in person. I suppose, however, when you take strong stands and make your opinion known, people will be bound to have problems with it. Curiosity, of course, plays a part, because you want to know what it was that you said or did, but generally, you don't find out. Oh well.

I'd forget about spending hundreds of dollars on the latest hot key that, if history is any indication at all, will eventually settle back down as every comic published from 1965-on has. I'd buy a boatload of 80's comics and enjoy days of wonder and nights of mystery, that owning no "hot key book" could ever replicate.

Well, there's definitely been enough interest. So without further ado, I'm rolling out the new "COMIC BOOK TRADING AREA" which includes: 1) THE TRADING FORUM - A long term trading forum where each member has their own permanent store. - This trading forum is fully functional and is up and running. Go grab a store today and start trading! 2) TRADE IT FORWARD (TIF) FORUM - A brokered trading forum for rapid trades. - This forum has been created, but will be on hold until we hammer out the new rules. These forums are also supported by: an EMAIL ALERT SYSTEM a "HOW TO" SECTION a MEMBER FEEDBACK FORUM a PROBATION AREA a MODERATION AREA as well as trading area-specific DISCUSSION AREAS So now you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel like trading comic books?" Well, do ya, punk? If so, then go to: http://the-comic-book-forum.boards.net/ and get yourself signed up. Please note: All CGC members are welcome. But in order to avoid confusion and maintain some degree of transaction security, I'm requiring all TRADING AREA participants to sign up with the exact same forum name as the one they use on the CGC forum. I'm also requiring any old or new TCBF members who found the website through other venues to sign up with the CGC forum before they will be allowed to participate. Have fun, and good luck with your trades! So I can't be "DitchFahrenheitLovesChachi"?

I suspect the real first Christmas list item for your shop that year was actually Superman #50, which caught everyone by surprise, and was an instant hit. Nevertheless, there's a substantial difference between April/May of 1990, and December of 1990. The book was definitely on the rise. I'm not so sure it was "$50" on the rise by that point, because none of the contemporary sources report any of that, but I won't quibble with you about that. Your experiences aren't reflected in any of the contemporary industry literature of the day. Again, not saying it didn't happen....but there's no contemporary reports of it, anywhere. I don't ask anyone to trust my anecdotes. I don't think anyone else should either. A lot of things happened, in a relatively short amount of time. Memories get fuzzy. You would be the first person I've ever heard get so excited by a single panel torso shot of a character, with nothing else to go on. You would be the first person I've ever heard get so excited by a single panel torso shot of a character, with nothing else to go on. Yes. It certainly got allot of retailers in New England to notice me.... Tough when your the new guy. I spec new material every week with solid mechanics built over years' but NOTHING beats my gut instincts. If I like something, I'm never afraid to roll with it. Epic wins... Disastrous losses... I love it. What I want to know is, why do you glare daggers at me when I come to Baltimore.