RockMyAmadeus

You're still not keyed into the difference in extremely rare books. The rarer the book, the more exponential the price increases with each grade level. $12-15K? More like $25-$30k.

This is hyperbole. It is not only NOT "nothing", the opinions of professionals in their fields is very much "something." It's like asking a doctor to testify in court, and say "although the results weren't entirely conclusive, I believe the patient died of an acute myocardial infaction", and you spout off "that's nothing but speculation and conjecture!!!" But, what you say is "more objective." Mystifying, is what this thread is...

What game? Football? Talk to me during the playoffs.

This is STILL false. If you keep repeating it, I'll keep challenging it. How long will you keep repeating false information as if it were true, and then have people saying your posts are "more objective"...?

I don't think so. I give them the benefit of the doubt. If they know anything about data quality and data collection.. then they surely wouldn't. It's not "lying" because it's not intended to deceive, just may not turn out to be correct once the theory is put into practice. The problem with this debate is that we can see copies of Hulk 181 9.2/9.4 sell every few weeks or so and have not seen Cerebus 1 9.2/9.4 sell often at all. Every dealer may have 100% intention of selling Cerebus 1 9.4 for $3500+, but until they actually have one to sell at that price we don't know for sure. A Cerebus #1 9.4 sold for $9,000 in March of this year.

If we don't teach our children how to reason, we're going to continue to see more and greater instances in society of threads like this. Irrational responses, debating the people, rather than the topic, erroneous conclusions based on faulty premises, and a total unwillingness to think logically, objectively, basing conclusions on empirical evidence, rather than personal feelings. Only, they're going to have real world ramifications. And they've been happening for years. Just watch an average episode of Judge Judy to see it in action: "Why did you take that woman's money, and then not perform the service for which you were contracted?" "Because she PISSED ME OFF!!!"

Presuming that other people are casually and consistently dishonest is yet another hallmark of the debate from emotion.

If you respect me, stop bringing up my name to make your "points." This discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with me. It is about OPG, Hulk #181, and Cerebus #1. Enough talking about ME. Thank you.

It resembles that to you, because that's how you see things. That isn't what is, however. I don't need anyone "padding" (OR patting) me on the back, and you have incorrectly analyzed the situation. What you say isn't reasonable. The collectibles market is not the stock market. They don't operate the same way. Therefore, to say that "Hulk #181 is more valuable", as if people even consider the "total amount of Hulk #181s that exist across all grades", is incorrect. It is not "one specific standard" or "very narrowly defined", as you have attempted to put it. It is standard practice within the collectibles market. I'm genuinely sorry you don't see things that way, but that's how the collectibles market is. You can fight it, but it is what it is. I don't determine...I only observe and report. You are bordering on trolling by suggesting that my posting..in any way..is "spurred on" by others. I have challenged every single one of the people "on my side" in other arguments, and have no problem doing so. It is offensive to me that you would suggest that I post what I post because of some "mob mentality." Highly offensive. My arguments stand, or do not stand, on their own. If others agree, great. If they don't, great. I do not make my arguments to cater to the need to be popular with ANYONE, and never have. I would suggest you keep those "accusations" to yourself. You are now merely parroting what Jay has said: "hard and publicly available data." Every other person in this thread has relied on that same hard, publicly available data, ad nauseum. Jay may report "hard and publicly available data", but the conclusions he draws are not reasonable. Seriously, Alexander, you're beginning to cross the line into incivility with your personal commentary and analyses. If you wish to continue to discuss THE MERITS OF THE SUBJECT, feel free...but if you are going to, instead, discuss the people involved in the debate, then enough's enough. Stop discussing the people. Your conclusion is the opposite of what has actually happened. There's simply no finer way to put it.

+1 3k is a white paged, well centered 9.4. One sale a trend does not make. ...and here is recent, publicly available sales data that suggests you are mistaken: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-4-White-Pages-1st-Wolverine-Full-also-selling-180-/271593526196?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f3c3c53b4 I understand that some of you may not be able to "accept" what this "common" book actually sells for. However the data is what it is. -J. He accepted an offer that wasn't $3,800? Unless you are the seller, you have no idea what sales price was. I've seen more than 2 9.4's sell on the boards in the last month in the $3,000.00 area. Ask RMA, he was the seller of one of them. And it was a beauty. You would be better served to show a little humility on the boards. You don't know everything. Yes you can see the accepted offer. Click "original listing" and then "print" about half way down on the next page. $3500. And since when does citing publicly available sales data and asking others to do the same indicate a lack of humility ? -J. Hey Jay...are those books in your sigline yours? Yes the books in every sig line I put together are mine. Why do you keep asking me that ? -J. Because the pictures are not all from the same source. Just wondering. @RMA, I told you already I lift the scans directly from the sale listing whenever I buy a book. If you like I can take a live shot of the group with my camera phone and post it for you. (thumbs u I missed that comment. Oh, Jaydog. Jaydog, Jaydog, Jaydog....

Post number. Also an option. But I figured time would be the easiest for everyone to figure out. I suspect 85% of the people who post here have no idea each post is numbered.

Only if they manage to have several strokes in the meantime. You can't argue from a position of emotion, and hope to sway people to your side when there are constant injections of reason to reply. Propaganda only works when dissension is silenced.

+1 3k is a white paged, well centered 9.4. One sale a trend does not make. ...and here is recent, publicly available sales data that suggests you are mistaken: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-4-White-Pages-1st-Wolverine-Full-also-selling-180-/271593526196?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f3c3c53b4 I understand that some of you may not be able to "accept" what this "common" book actually sells for. However the data is what it is. -J. He accepted an offer that wasn't $3,800? Unless you are the seller, you have no idea what sales price was. I've seen more than 2 9.4's sell on the boards in the last month in the $3,000.00 area. Ask RMA, he was the seller of one of them. And it was a beauty. You would be better served to show a little humility on the boards. You don't know everything. Yes you can see the accepted offer. Click "original listing" and then "print" about half way down on the next page. $3500. And since when does citing publicly available sales data and asking others to do the same indicate a lack of humility ? -J. Hey Jay...are those books in your sigline yours? Yes the books in every sig line I put together are mine. Why do you keep asking me that ? -J. Because the pictures are not all from the same source. Just wondering.

That means absolutely nothing. What is OS on AF15 in 9.2? Cap #1? Action #1? FF#12? We all know that OS on the hyper keys isn't in line with FMV on graded books. That's been the OP's point since the first post. And hulk 181 is a hyper key. Cerebus 1 is not. -J. I don't think that's been his point. His point was that he thinks that Hulk 181 should be ranked higher than Cerebus #1 (in terms of value). I don't think he ever disputed "key" status. Going back to my post, as I said, we all know that OS values aren't totally in line with what we see a majority of the time (ie, certified HG comics). And it would be silly to think they would. How many of us would line up and take out a second mortgage on our homes if we could buy graded keys at their OS price? You'd make a small fortune quickly if that were possible. But, what OS does give us is an appx value/range of particular, uncertified book. And, from that, we can rank the books. I don't have this years OS but I know that, of the books in my example, Action 1 is the most expensive. Just like in the "real-time auction/online sales" world. Cap 1 will be second, followed by AF15, then FF#12 (and then Cerebus 1, and Hulk 181). Nobody is disputing the more popular character. Nobody is disputing the book that is in higher demand. I don't think anyone would dispute which book is more liquid. The thread is about which book should be more valuable in OS. And, right now, OS has it right. You've made some good points. When in doubt go with the rarer book, however, recent Cerebus #1 sales have been uninspiring across the board. I'm not convinced a new Cerebus #1 in 9.2 brought to market would breach $2500. Maybe at this grade it would motivate a higher end collector to pay a steep premium over guide, but there is currently lackluster demand in the more common grades. What we do know is that the Hulk 181 in 9.2 sells above guide consistently. Extremely rare books do not behave the same way as extremely common books in high grade. The rarer the book, the more extreme the difference. This is a basic principle of the market for rare books. I recognize that many of you don't understand that, having spent much time in the market of common books...but that's the way it is. The "rules" go out the window. Look at Action #1. In 9.0 it's $3.2M. In 8.5...one grade difference...it's less than half that, $1.5M. In 8.0, one more grade difference, it's less than 1/3 the record,.at $1M. In 6.0, it's only $327K, 1/10th the record price...only a full grade and a half (VF/NM to Fine) lower. (thumbs u Are you agreeing, or flipping me the bird...? Because Jaydog just called all of that hypothesis, supposition, and presumption.

Oh and people....saying "thus and such is on page XXX" is meaningless, because many people have different page settings than you. It would make much more sense to say "thus and such posted at X:XXPM, EDT." Then, everyone has a fixed position to look for it.

+1 3k is a white paged, well centered 9.4. One sale a trend does not make. ...and here is recent, publicly available sales data that suggests you are mistaken: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-4-White-Pages-1st-Wolverine-Full-also-selling-180-/271593526196?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3f3c3c53b4 I understand that some of you may not be able to "accept" what this "common" book actually sells for. However the data is what it is. -J. He accepted an offer that wasn't $3,800? Unless you are the seller, you have no idea what sales price was. I've seen more than 2 9.4's sell on the boards in the last month in the $3,000.00 area. Ask RMA, he was the seller of one of them. And it was a beauty. You would be better served to show a little humility on the boards. You don't know everything. Yes you can see the accepted offer. Click "original listing" and then "print" about half way down on the next page. $3500. And since when does citing publicly available sales data and asking others to do the same indicate a lack of humility ? -J. Hey Jay...are those books in your sigline yours?

That means absolutely nothing. What is OS on AF15 in 9.2? Cap #1? Action #1? FF#12? We all know that OS on the hyper keys isn't in line with FMV on graded books. That's been the OP's point since the first post. And hulk 181 is a hyper key. Cerebus 1 is not. -J. I don't think that's been his point. His point was that he thinks that Hulk 181 should be ranked higher than Cerebus #1 (in terms of value). I don't think he ever disputed "key" status. Going back to my post, as I said, we all know that OS values aren't totally in line with what we see a majority of the time (ie, certified HG comics). And it would be silly to think they would. How many of us would line up and take out a second mortgage on our homes if we could buy graded keys at their OS price? You'd make a small fortune quickly if that were possible. But, what OS does give us is an appx value/range of particular, uncertified book. And, from that, we can rank the books. I don't have this years OS but I know that, of the books in my example, Action 1 is the most expensive. Just like in the "real-time auction/online sales" world. Cap 1 will be second, followed by AF15, then FF#12 (and then Cerebus 1, and Hulk 181). Nobody is disputing the more popular character. Nobody is disputing the book that is in higher demand. I don't think anyone would dispute which book is more liquid. The thread is about which book should be more valuable in OS. And, right now, OS has it right. You've made some good points. When in doubt go with the rarer book, however, recent Cerebus #1 sales have been uninspiring across the board. I'm not convinced a new Cerebus #1 in 9.2 brought to market would breach $2500. Maybe at this grade it would motivate a higher end collector to pay a steep premium over guide, but there is currently lackluster demand in the more common grades. What we do know is that the Hulk 181 in 9.2 sells above guide consistently. Extremely rare books do not behave the same way as extremely common books in high grade. The rarer the book, the more extreme the difference. This is a basic principle of the market for rare books. I recognize that many of you don't understand that, having spent much time in the market of common books...but that's the way it is. The "rules" go out the window. Look at Action #1. In 9.0 it's $3.2M. In 8.5...one grade difference...it's less than half that, $1.5M. In 8.0, one more grade difference, it's less than 1/3 the record,.at $1M. In 6.0, it's only $327K, 1/10th the record price...only a full grade and a half (VF/NM to Fine) lower. This is all just more hypothesis, supposition and speculation. If you have any publicly available sales data that suggests cerebus 1 is akin to action comics #1 in terms of it valuation tiers, please feel free to post it here. -J. You are literally using the words "hypothesis", "supposition", and "speculation" in direct opposition to their defined meanings. Impressive!

While I certainly find your rhetoric amusing, let it be noted that I have been the only one to cite actual publicly available sales data to support my statements. This isn't true. This also isn't true. "hypotheses" You reject the sales data that has been given, so why bother?

I said that 300 posts ago.

That means absolutely nothing. What is OS on AF15 in 9.2? Cap #1? Action #1? FF#12? We all know that OS on the hyper keys isn't in line with FMV on graded books. That's been the OP's point since the first post. And hulk 181 is a hyper key. Cerebus 1 is not. -J. I don't think that's been his point. His point was that he thinks that Hulk 181 should be ranked higher than Cerebus #1 (in terms of value). I don't think he ever disputed "key" status. Going back to my post, as I said, we all know that OS values aren't totally in line with what we see a majority of the time (ie, certified HG comics). And it would be silly to think they would. How many of us would line up and take out a second mortgage on our homes if we could buy graded keys at their OS price? You'd make a small fortune quickly if that were possible. But, what OS does give us is an appx value/range of particular, uncertified book. And, from that, we can rank the books. I don't have this years OS but I know that, of the books in my example, Action 1 is the most expensive. Just like in the "real-time auction/online sales" world. Cap 1 will be second, followed by AF15, then FF#12 (and then Cerebus 1, and Hulk 181). Nobody is disputing the more popular character. Nobody is disputing the book that is in higher demand. I don't think anyone would dispute which book is more liquid. The thread is about which book should be more valuable in OS. And, right now, OS has it right. That is a point I'm making. Hulk 181 is an iconic key. Cerebus is not. Wolverine is one of the greatest comic book creations of the 20th Century. Cerebus has his place among the greatest independent comic book creations. The Aardvark is not on the same plane as Wolverine in terms of popularity and believe me, that's not a knock on Cerebus. Iconic keys are not your average key book. The characters have a place in terms of popularity beyond the comic book medium. Wolverine has achieved that place. OS is saying that a character like Cerebus has a more valuable 1st app. than Wolverine's. One reason why I take issue with this is the special nature of Hulk 181. Again, it's not an average key. It's iconic. No. Overstreet is saying that Cerebus 1 is more valuable than Hulk 181. Which it is. Only evidently to the people who own one (or more) or have some to sell. -J. So true. Also an irrational statement.

That means absolutely nothing. What is OS on AF15 in 9.2? Cap #1? Action #1? FF#12? We all know that OS on the hyper keys isn't in line with FMV on graded books. That's been the OP's point since the first post. And hulk 181 is a hyper key. Cerebus 1 is not. -J. I don't think that's been his point. His point was that he thinks that Hulk 181 should be ranked higher than Cerebus #1 (in terms of value). I don't think he ever disputed "key" status. Going back to my post, as I said, we all know that OS values aren't totally in line with what we see a majority of the time (ie, certified HG comics). And it would be silly to think they would. How many of us would line up and take out a second mortgage on our homes if we could buy graded keys at their OS price? You'd make a small fortune quickly if that were possible. But, what OS does give us is an appx value/range of particular, uncertified book. And, from that, we can rank the books. I don't have this years OS but I know that, of the books in my example, Action 1 is the most expensive. Just like in the "real-time auction/online sales" world. Cap 1 will be second, followed by AF15, then FF#12 (and then Cerebus 1, and Hulk 181). Nobody is disputing the more popular character. Nobody is disputing the book that is in higher demand. I don't think anyone would dispute which book is more liquid. The thread is about which book should be more valuable in OS. And, right now, OS has it right. That is a point I'm making. Hulk 181 is an iconic key. Cerebus is not. Wolverine is one of the greatest comic book creations of the 20th Century. Cerebus has his place among the greatest independent comic book creations. The Aardvark is not on the same plane as Wolverine in terms of popularity and believe me, that's not a knock on Cerebus. Iconic keys are not your average key book. The characters have a place in terms of popularity beyond the comic book medium. Wolverine has achieved that place. OS is saying that a character like Cerebus has a more valuable 1st app. than Wolverine's. One reason why I take issue with this is the special nature of Hulk 181. Again, it's not an average key. It's iconic. No. Overstreet is saying that Cerebus 1 is more valuable than Hulk 181. Which it is. Only evidently to the people who own one (or more) or have some to sell. -J. That is an irrational statement, projecting your own bias.

That means absolutely nothing. What is OS on AF15 in 9.2? Cap #1? Action #1? FF#12? We all know that OS on the hyper keys isn't in line with FMV on graded books. That's been the OP's point since the first post. And hulk 181 is a hyper key. Cerebus 1 is not. -J. I don't think that's been his point. His point was that he thinks that Hulk 181 should be ranked higher than Cerebus #1 (in terms of value). I don't think he ever disputed "key" status. Going back to my post, as I said, we all know that OS values aren't totally in line with what we see a majority of the time (ie, certified HG comics). And it would be silly to think they would. How many of us would line up and take out a second mortgage on our homes if we could buy graded keys at their OS price? You'd make a small fortune quickly if that were possible. But, what OS does give us is an appx value/range of particular, uncertified book. And, from that, we can rank the books. I don't have this years OS but I know that, of the books in my example, Action 1 is the most expensive. Just like in the "real-time auction/online sales" world. Cap 1 will be second, followed by AF15, then FF#12 (and then Cerebus 1, and Hulk 181). Nobody is disputing the more popular character. Nobody is disputing the book that is in higher demand. I don't think anyone would dispute which book is more liquid. The thread is about which book should be more valuable in OS. And, right now, OS has it right. You've made some good points. When in doubt go with the rarer book, however, recent Cerebus #1 sales have been uninspiring across the board. I'm not convinced a new Cerebus #1 in 9.2 brought to market would breach $2500. Maybe at this grade it would motivate a higher end collector to pay a steep premium over guide, but there is currently lackluster demand in the more common grades. What we do know is that the Hulk 181 in 9.2 sells above guide consistently. Extremely rare books do not behave the same way as extremely common books in high grade. The rarer the book, the more extreme the difference. This is a basic principle of the market for rare books. I recognize that many of you don't understand that, having spent much time in the market of common books...but that's the way it is. The "rules" go out the window. Look at Action #1. In 9.0 it's $3.2M. In 8.5...one grade difference...it's less than half that, $1.5M. In 8.0, one more grade difference, it's less than 1/3 the record,.at $1M. In 6.0, it's only $327K, 1/10th the record price...only a full grade and a half (VF/NM to Fine) lower.

That means absolutely nothing. What is OS on AF15 in 9.2? Cap #1? Action #1? FF#12? We all know that OS on the hyper keys isn't in line with FMV on graded books. That's been the OP's point since the first post. And hulk 181 is a hyper key. Cerebus 1 is not. -J. I don't think that's been his point. His point was that he thinks that Hulk 181 should be ranked higher than Cerebus #1 (in terms of value). I don't think he ever disputed "key" status. Going back to my post, as I said, we all know that OS values aren't totally in line with what we see a majority of the time (ie, certified HG comics). And it would be silly to think they would. How many of us would line up and take out a second mortgage on our homes if we could buy graded keys at their OS price? You'd make a small fortune quickly if that were possible. But, what OS does give us is an appx value/range of particular, uncertified book. And, from that, we can rank the books. I don't have this years OS but I know that, of the books in my example, Action 1 is the most expensive. Just like in the "real-time auction/online sales" world. Cap 1 will be second, followed by AF15, then FF#12 (and then Cerebus 1, and Hulk 181). Nobody is disputing the more popular character. Nobody is disputing the book that is in higher demand. I don't think anyone would dispute which book is more liquid. The thread is about which book should be more valuable in OS. And, right now, OS has it right. That is a point I'm making. Hulk 181 is an iconic key. Cerebus is not. Wolverine is one of the greatest comic book creations of the 20th Century. Cerebus has his place among the greatest independent comic book creations. The Aardvark is not on the same plane as Wolverine in terms of popularity and believe me, that's not a knock on Cerebus. Iconic keys are not your average key book. The characters have a place in terms of popularity beyond the comic book medium. Wolverine has achieved that place. OS is saying that a character like Cerebus has a more valuable 1st app. than Wolverine's. One reason why I take issue with this is the special nature of Hulk 181. Again, it's not an average key. It's iconic. And that's the problem that you have had since the beginning, that has been explained multiple times: you want the OPG list to be a popularity contest, and it's not. It never has been. That's not its function. Why not just accept that and move on?

That's not true at all. There has been some very educational posts, on all sides, both explaining the difference between logic and emotion, and demonstrating that difference. You have to glean what you can, and there have been some pretty decent gleanings, if you look close.

What I just read is "if you ignore supply and demand, fundamentals of a market, the book I like is more valuable." And why is it so important to you and jaydog that we acknowledge wolverine is a popular character? Probably because more vauable often equates to more attractive and popular. The musical album that is more popular usually sells more and demands higher prices. However, this mechanism is not at play here. Cerebus might have a higher price individually (in a grade or two) but the total amount of money comics collectors are willing to pay to get a H181 is far far far higher. So in that sense H181 is clearly more valuable. The market value is the price for each book sold times the number of books sold - is far far far greater for H181 than for Cerebus. So only in a very very specific (almost ridiculously narrow) understanding of 'value' is Cerebus (perhaps) more valuable. Therefore we obviously object to someone claiming that "Cerebus is more valuable than H181". And you're complaining that other people aren't logical? It is entirely outside the realm of reason to compare the market value of "collectibles" to the market value of stocks. No one cares about an individual stock. An individual stock is just a digital representation; it has no meaning in and of itself: it is merely a representation of the value of a particular company. Everyone cares about their individual comic books, because they are all unique, and it is the one (or two, or five, or 100) that *I* own. Every single one of them is individual. There's not a single comic book that exists that is a molecular copy of any other one. And when you add nostalgia in the mix, the individuality of the book stands out even more. No one cares about the copies other people own, unless they might be interested in buying them. They care about their own cop(y)(ies.) The first copy of Batman I bought new off the stands was #437. I paid 75 cents for it. It is about a VF. It has very little market value, but its value to ME is greater than all the other copies of this book that exist, with the possible exception of a 9.8 SS signed by Wolfman, Perez, and Broderick. I'm not even sure if you can GET a physical representation of a stock cert anymore, but if you could, who cares? If I traded it for a different certificate, no one would care. The stock has no value as a physical item. Completely different concepts.