RockMyAmadeus

In my unsolicited opinion, your hyperbolic, pendulum-swing representation of other's statements is a significant reason why these debates persist. You suggested there were only 30 or so known copies, others disagreed, and you insinuated that the only alternative is 100% survival. That's a false dichotomy - there are more options available than 30 or 100%. I wouldn't claim a 100% survival of any comic more than 10 years old. The editorial variant was well-known back in the 90s; I remember looking for it before I got out of comics in 1996. I can probably find and post some old Wizards or Overstreets to show it listed at a premium price vs standard copies. Many comic collectors don't slab their comics at all. Many Sandman collectors put their runs away when the series ended so long ago and may have even quit actively collecting comics. They likely imagine the 8B they got to be a $50-$100 book that they'd rather keep and have no idea it could go for $2k. As time passes, it's possible that editorial variants are finding their way back into the wild from people who never realized they had a premium copy, just that they liked reading it and started following the series. Admittedly, speculation, but based on some observation of comic readers who were only in it for Alan Moore Swamp Thing, Neil Gaiman Sandman, and Jamie Delano Hellblazer. I doubt many of these copies were simply thrown away, since they were given out at comic stores presumably to comic collectors/buyers, not at Barnes & Noble to the general public. I'd say probably two-thirds are out there somewhere in some condition range. I respect your opinion, though I still believe that, in this day and age it is very easy for someone to find out what their books are worth, and as with virtually every other book of value, the more valuable it becomes, the more come out from the wild. We simply have not seen that happen with the sandman 8 variant. Period. You say collectors have known for awhile that they are coveted and that collectors were the likely recipients of them originally, and I agree. So where are they all? Sitting in the collections of collectors. You do not understand the market for very rare comics (which this certainly is), and you do not understand how Sandman collectors view their books. Sandman #8 variant is NOT Hulk #181, where people can buy and sell them on a regular basis, and if they sell one, they can just pony up the money to buy another one next week. The facts do not support your position, in any respect.

This is a reasonable conclusion, and...this is for you, Jay...based on what we know about survival rates for comics in general, Sandman in particular, and the collecting habits of buyers from 1989 to the present. This is not made-up "speculation" that relies on nothing but personal whim and opinion. You, Jay, discount and discredit people who have been doing this for decades, who know these markets because they deal in them on a daily basis, and have for decades, and that, along with your made up "facts" (like "the market wasn't aware of this book until 2005-2006"), is what makes your statements so unreasonable. The census is great...if one knows how to use the census correctly. But one cannot...indeed, must not...go by the census alone in determining what exists, and in what quantities, and in what conditions. Yes, it IS all just "opinion" about extant copies, but you err when you say all opinions are created equally. If I am suffering a persistent, hacking, mucousy cough...and my doctor, who has been a doctor for 40 years, says I have pneumonia...and my mechanic says I have a lung sunburn...whose opinion is more valid? And...if you want to have your opinions given any weight, you better make sure ALL your facts are spit-shine accurate. What value is an opinion that relies on things which are not true?

I'd love for a hoard of Maxx ashcans to be found.

You cannot claim there are no copies "on the market" unless you have checked every dealer website, comic and/or business website (ie. CPG, Amazon, Comiclink, etc.) that allows people to put items up for sale, brick and mortar store, convention (yes, it's currently Thursday afternoon - you probably get a pass on this one at the moment), etc. eBay is not the market, GPA does not represent all sales (even just of CGC graded books), and the CGC census is not an accurate representation of extant copies, either directly or proportionately. Your "opinions" are ridiculous and not based on any kind of reality. This is just your opinion, based on nothing but speculation. Where are the FACTS, man??

No need to be patronizing. I'll clarify: Do you mean eBay? CLink? Heritage? Dealers' websites? There was a copy on CLink that sold in the last couple of weeks. Example? You mean, like this one: ...which is not true in the slightest...? Your guesstimations are not close, and your reasoning behind them is not sound. I'm not trying to "convince" you of anything. I don't need to, because I don't care what you ultimately believe. Now, that doesn't mean I don't care about you, or feel the need to disrespect or dismiss you, but if you believe things which aren't true, that's your business. I care only about the facts, what is true. Trying to "convince" anyone of anything is about the most useless waste of time that exists. Oh boy. Why would I dispute something that is true? I have already explained, in great detail, why there is significantly more than your guesstimate of surviving copies. Scroll up, the posts are still there. As I have said before, in other places, Jay, this type of extraneous commentary about *how* people debate is pointless, creates ill-will, and muddies the debate (all of which you know, which is why you engage in it.) Stick to the topic. Don't debate the person, debate the subject.

A copy of an important book can certainly be "known" to the hobby without being on the census. I do not presume to compare the Sandman 8 editorial variant with a Action comics #1, and you shouldn't either. -J. You have, again, missed the point. The only comparison is to illustrate that the census isn't the final word on what is "known", which is clearly the impression you have made.

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to. It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows. I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees. But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants. -J. Ehm ... that's exactly what you said: ...."Known" copies being those on the census. I speculated on the potential amount of "raw" copies in a later post when RMA asked for the same clarification. Which is ultimately all anyone can do. I base my guesstimate, however, on the info cited heretofore. (thumbs u -J. The Mile High Action #1 isn't on the census. I suppose that copy is therefore "unknown"...?

Which market...? Who are these people....? Outside of sig series, you'll find that most people don't slab books to "better preserve and protect them." As many have said before, a book is just as protected (maybe moreso) in a nice mylar and board. You're still not understanding. That a person can't read any part of their comic book when they slab it is the point. That editorial is what makes the book special. Otherwise, there's nothing different between it and a regular #8. There aren't any "interior variant" AF 15s of which I am aware. The main difference between the RRP and the #8 variant is that you can still see the variation of an RRP when it is slabbed. Where are you getting this information...? The book has been known since very shortly after it first appeared. It is broken out in the 1990 OPG Updates, and is priced at $60 (regular $6) in the 1991 Big Guide. I would suggest that appearing in the OPG pretty much means that the "market at large" is fairly aware of it. Or....it could be because it is the second of the two keys to the run, featuring the first appearance of the most popular character (by far) of the Endless, after Morpheus.... Speculation without understanding the situation is fruitless. Yes. I already explained to you why this was true. If you refuse to accept that answer, that's fine, but it doesn't make it any less true. Are you aware that the Mile High Action #1 is potentially worth $5,000,000 or more? It's not slabbed. Why is that...? Be warned, Jay: this isn't Bronze Comics, where people will just let you get away with making unreasonable, unfounded, factually inaccurate statements, where you can just make stuff up out of thin air, and where you will have 2-3 other people "supporting" you. This is Comics General. You may have bitten off more than you can chew....

That's the point I just made. One of the reasons this particular book isn't represented on the census is because you have to deslab it to see the editorial. That's the draw of this book. Collector's don't want, or need, to slab this if they're not selling it. You have to understand what the census is, and what it represents. Your first point isn't true, for the reasons stated already, and your second point isn't necessarily true. If they are all in strong hands, it doesn't matter how much they sell for. You are giving far, far too much weight to the census, *especially* as it relates to more modern books. There are 5,000 Tick Special Edition #1s that were printed, and yet there are only 101 copies on the census. It is faulty reasoning to suggest that there are only a handful of Tick Special Edition #1s still in existence, because the census represents only 2% of the entire print run. You are using the census to reach conclusions that aren't reasonable. I'm sure a significant percentage of them are NOT 9.6/9.8 candidates. I'm sure the majority of them are 9.4 and lower. However...it is not reasonable to conclude that Sandman #8 editorial variant...a book that has been known and sought after since almost when it was printed...only has 1/6th the original print run still extant, and the rest have succumbed to the ravages of time. If it was a 1959 book, I'd agree with you. It's not.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J. There are 34 copies on the census. What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies? ...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u -J. Those that aren't known to the market probably just haven't been brought to the market. Unless somebody made a huge effort to acquire and hoard them and then just happened to get caught in a hurricane or a fire, I'd guess that instead of 34 known copies there have are less than 34 copies from the original run that were destroyed and that only a small percentage have been damaged to less than newsstand condition. I'm not sure about that. There were only about 600 printed and many were given away at just two comic book shops in LA and San Fran. The story is that not even all of the original 600 were handed out, that some of the remaining were kept and sold on the secondary market and the rest destroyed. I think a close comparison would be the batman 608rrp. There were around 500 of those given out to dealers in 2002. Once they became highly collectible, copies started hitting cgc in force. Now there are about 280 on the census. Sandman 8 editorial came out in 1989, and it has been considered the holy grail of the series for the better part of a decade. And even now, 25 years later, barely 30 copies are on the census. Based on those percentages, I'd be surprised if even 100 total copies have survived. That's one rare book. -J. You're confusing the census with what is "known." The census does not represent the final word on what is known to exist, and what is not. There are reasons why the book isn't represented by bigger numbers on the census; for example, the editorial is what makes it special, and once the book is slabbed, it has to be unslabbed to look at it, which prevents people from slabbing them in the first place. Also...females make up a larger percentage of Sandman collectors than standard superhero books, and female comic fans both hold onto their collectibles much tighter than men (they are collectors in the truest sense, and how much money they might make selling it doesn't generally factor into it), and tend not to be as much into slabbing. This is a 1989 book, not a 1949 book...people who bought Sandman (and most comics in 1989) are and were very, very unlikely to dispose of them in the trash. Sandman #8 variant has been a "grail" (oh, how I hate this word) since it became generally known in early 1990, not just the last decade. By the time it came out, Sandman had gained considerable word of mouth buzz, and was fast becoming a "hot book." These books, even when they cool down, have much less chance of being tossed than books that were never hot to begin with (like, say, New Gods.) Where do you get the information that the remaining copies were destroyed....? There are many more than 30, or 100, copies of this book still in existence.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J. There are 34 copies on the census. What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies?

Interesting. Where did you get this information?

When the hell is a book that I have dozens of going to do that??? Justice League #1 needs to pop like a zit.

To the east side....?

There is something to be said for that, and it definitely requires some discernment. Before this year, I put whatever garbage into my mouth I felt like, and the results are obvious. But the massively higher prices aren't really massively higher: they're what food would actually cost, if not for the tidal wave of chemically grown, processed, and genetically modified food that is the legacy of the last half of the 20th century. Look at milk, for example: it is pasteurized (sometimes ultra-pasteurized), which destroys not only bad bacteria...but also good bacteria that is naturally found in milk. As a result, pasteurization results in milk that has little nutritive value. Raw, whole milk costs $16 or more a gallon. But it's nutritive, and not just empty calories, like the pasteurized, homogenized "product" on shelves. Pasteurization was probably a necessity in the early 20th, when it took hold...people didn't understand hygienic practice. But in the early 21st? And don't ever, EVER buy chocolate milk already mixed at the store.

Organic...? Isn't it funny that people obsess over that term, and it doesn't even have a specific meaning? I find myself surrounded by people who eat tons of bad stuff and then go to Whole Foods or whatever and pay ridiculous prices for "Organic Free Range Blahdiblah...", as if this makes up for it. But yeah...according to my Organic Chemistry classes...it's definitely organic. Ha. Ha ha. Smartass. Organic = not grown with chemical pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, growth accelerants, free of genetically modified organisms, etc. In other words, natural foods, grown naturally, the way they were created. And you are correct, eating processed, chemical laden garbage is not "evened out" by eating organic. I've seen you eat. You are to healthy eating as Twilight is to great literature. I ate at your house....

They were writing messages to each other... I guess they don't know about e-mail....

I don't agree with this, but interesting points. In general inkers had so much more latitude over the final look of the art. tight pencils as we know them today were very rare from what i understand (and have seen) What I mean was that it looks like he deferred a lot of the final look to Klaus (and joe Rubinstein on wolverine) and focused on storytelling & composition more and more. When you look at DD 191 and Ronin Miller's aesthetics in terms of line work and spotting blacks were coming from a very different place than his work with janson. I understand what you're saying, and you are 100% correct that inkers were much more responsible for the finished look back then, but I don't think it's correct to say Miller didn't have his distinctive look. You can see it in Twilight Zone #84 and #85, John Carter #18, PPSM #27, 28, Unknown Soldier #219, DC Special #21, Werd War #64 & #68, and many covers, inked by Springer, McLeod, Milgrom, Bulanadi, and others, and Miller's distinctive look is apparent in all. Klaus just became the collaborator that Frank felt the most comfortable with. With #191, you're looking at the middle stage of his evolution between his 1978-1981 work, and what he eventually ended up with in Ronin and DK. Plus, Austin had his quite distinctive hand in the issue, too. I agree, it is markedly different from what came before, but by this time, in late 1982, Miller had clearly grown tired of the restrictions of monthly books, and, as most artists do, was experimenting with the look of his work. Aside: Issue #191 is the definitive issue of the relationship between DD and Bullseye. It's outstanding, and an excellent sendoff to Miller's original run.

I think everyone *knows* that, because there were enough of us around at the time. I think the question is how might one prove it to those who weren't and might doubt that. Obviously every current reference says that, but I don't remember a whole lot of press at the time announcing reprints and showing the new cover logo. There will be ordering literature lying around somewhere for the book that says what it is. There will also be other contemporaneous literature (price guide reports, CBG articles, etc.) that mentions it. It's not necessary to rely on memories alone. What isn't as well known is the SILVER logo cover............

Rubinstein said, a week ago, that the cover to #1 was Jack Nicholson in the Shining...but that Miller gave him a bunch of Clint Eastwood movies and told him to make Wolvie look like Clint, which Rubinstein did. So...I guess you can say Wolvie looks how FM wanted him to look, but according to Rubinstein, the actual work was all his.

I don't agree with this, but interesting points.

Organic...? Isn't it funny that people obsess over that term, and it doesn't even have a specific meaning? I find myself surrounded by people who eat tons of bad stuff and then go to Whole Foods or whatever and pay ridiculous prices for "Organic Free Range Blahdiblah...", as if this makes up for it. But yeah...according to my Organic Chemistry classes...it's definitely organic. Ha. Ha ha. Smartass. Organic = not grown with chemical pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, growth accelerants, free of genetically modified organisms, etc. In other words, natural foods, grown naturally, the way they were created. And you are correct, eating processed, chemical laden garbage is not "evened out" by eating organic.

Yes, folks, it IS a second printing. It came out the same time as X-Men #282 second print, about the same time as #284-5.

I love this thread. As a Miller (and Janson) fan, this whole topic is I do too, and this whole discussion. It's really filled in a lot of blanks that I have had, questions that have gone unanswered since I first read these books 2+ decades ago, about why the look of the book changed, subtly but noticeably, from the late #170's to #184, and why the styles seemed to go back and forth throughout this period...and the answer is, because they did! I wasn't seeing things; the changes were actually happening in front of my eyes. I always knew that the Punisher issue slated for #167 was scrapped (the next issue blurb from #166 makes it clear), but I wasn't aware just how much had been salvaged and "re-used" , with some expansion, later on down the line in #183-184. It makes a lot of sense.

This is my opinion as well. I believe that #183 forms the core of what was supposed to be #167, along with part of #184, while #182 looks much more like #181. #183, especially, has the classic "uplit little drugged girl" page, and especially the credits page that is Miller through-and-through (clearly from the aborted issue #167):