Stefan_W

True, but the damage from tampering is not really the same what you find when FedEx drops the box. Having said this, what you point out is perfectly plausible if there is nothing in the way of checking the case when it comes back.

There is one thing that is still puzzling to me. I do a lot of crack and resubs and the part I keep getting stuck on is how the person got books in and out of a CGC case without cracking it. Granted, when I open up a case I make no effort to preserve it, but my experience is that cases chip and crack very easily. I recall earlier in this discussion that there was mention of a person who once put up a post outlining how to open up a CGC case without cracking it but it was taken down right away. Am I misremembering or is this a real possibility? It seems like the only ways to make this work are: (1) figuring out how open a case without cracking it, or (2) having a supply of blank cases that can be used (which involves having the equipment to seal them).

The early pages at the start of the thread have the summary of what happened. I would recommend skimming through those to get a sense of what is going on. After that the main points are expanding how wide this is and adding new books from the seller that are suspicious. The thread is basically more dilute as it goes on so you can skim more quickly as you go or else leave out big chunks of the middle and end entirely. The most important recent points are still being repeated. So first 15-20 pages plus last couple of page will give you a pretty good summary.

Me too, and this is one of the ripple effects that worry me. I have five ASM 252s in a submission that is currently SFG and three of those copies were from crack and resubs. I fixed them all up and made each copy look a lot better. I do crack and resubs because it is fun and I get a charge out of making books I love look better. If I get a 9.8 on any of them it is a victory, but now if I get a 9.8 I may not be able to get FMV or even be able to sell it easily if it comes to a point where I decide to move on from the book. This is the specific reason why I am hoping that, at some point, there will be an official release of slab numbers that are suspicious (i.e., those submitted by this fraudster). I dont see this happening though so I am already bracing for another hit to value to go along with the one that is already happening in the post-comic boom era. TL;DR - Even people who have not bought fraudulent books may still feel the impacts of all of this.

I think the idea of criminal masterminds is overblown. Most crime (and this is one, if you think of it in terms of defrauding people) is unsophisticated and not particularly well thought out. I would default to: this individual found an angle, figured out a way to capitalize on the angle, conned an unknown amount of people with it, and then was eventually found out. We are dealing with Joe Pesci's character in Home Alone rather than Magneto.

Yup, this will be the immediate impact of the scam being brought to light. I suspect there will be lower than normal returns at auctions early in the new year for book like Hulk 181 (9.0-ish), 9.8 copies of ASM 300, etc etc etc. A Hulk 181 hit CL marketplace yesterday and has no offers so far. That may not mean anything since it is early and the book was listed too high, but the fact there have not been any offers at all yet (even bad ones) caught my attention. Getting deals is sometimes proportional to willingness to take risks, so people who are willing to roll the dice may end up doing very well .... unless they do really badly in the end when everything shakes out.

We can chip in on the retainer then take the envelop used to get it to you and swap out the promised 15k for $150. And just like that we are back on topic.

This seems like a very bad idea.

For me it roughly breaks down this way: For Silver Age keys I go for about 6 or above, although there are nice 5.0 copies I will gladly take For Silver Age non-keys I go for 9.0 and above For Bronze Age keys I go 9.4 and above For moderns it is typically 9.8 or bust unless it is a really valuable book that is unaffordable in that grade.

A thread lock could be a self-fulfilling prophecy if this derails into people talking about thread locks and such rather than the actual topic. Once people stop finding new things to say about the actual scam that is being discussed, and once the discussion is taken over by people who dislike CGC to begin with essentially saying they dont like CGC again and again (albeit in different forms), then the thread no longer has value. It can swirl the drain for a while after that, I suppose, but seeing anything nefarious in locking a thread once there is no longer any value in it would be a stretch. Things are useful until they are not.

Not a 9.9 but still really awesome. Congrats!

Agreed, sounds like fun and we should definitely do that if we are ever in the same place in the future

I agree with almost everything you say here and really appreciate the work you have put into exposing scams like this one. Coming at this as someone who was around before CGC I do have a mild quibble with the bolded part - shady dealers were a VERY serious problem prior to professional grading and I can't get behind the statement that grading has made it worse. It has changed it a bit for sure as some adapted to include graded comics into their scams, but I suspect the bulk of the shadiest dealers out there have stuck with doing their thing with raw books since that remains the easiest way to con people out of cash. Sorry to focus on such a small part of what you said. The rest of it is Truth in my opinion.

I think it is just how the You Tube algorithms work. The original videos breaking the story did well. Once that passed, ones from the original folks following up are doing well along with those that have fancier titles intended to hype people into clicking. For perspective, I put out a video yesterday that just added a couple of things based on my experiences with cracking and re-subbing books and that did about the same as any other video I put out (i.e., watched by a few dozen of my friends). You Tube is not going to send that type of thing into people's searches. The other factor is videos on this topic are outdated really fast. People are starting to go for the most recent update with the flashiest title.

Interesting question. If I had to guess it would be simply because that sort of thing was never tracked. Thousands of people submit many thousands of comics per year and each submission is basically like a grain of sand on a beach. Unless they specifically track this sort of things (which may happen in the future) they may simply not have looked at that type of pattern. Having said this, they will be perfectly able to look back through the records and find every slab # associated with this person's submissions including re-holders. The question I have is what CGC will land on in terms of a way forward, which is probably linked with what types of things insurance will cover. Best case scenario is a listing of slab numbers and a free recall where those books are re-graded, re-slabbed, and sent back to the current owner with restitution if the book was notwhat is said on the case (lower grade, missing something, etc). I doubt the resolution will be that extensive though since that can run into astronomical costs. We will just have to see how everything shakes out.

Signature series books are commonly counted separately.

Cool. This is a discussion board and everyone can freely exercise their right to express an opinion that is completely wrong.

This is an important point to remember for those wondering why CGC has not come out with a statement yet. Fact finding comes first so the statement is informed, legal comes next so you know what you can say, and an official statement may follow after all of that.

Mentioned this before, but not all books that are originally graded as 9.8 come back as 9.8 during a resub. There are wrinkles to this process.

I don't think there will be much more movement before the holidays. I hope everyone at CGC takes a restful break and is able to spend time with those they love. Happy holidays and thank you for all of your hard work!

Here is the thing though - when someone uses a calmer and non-click baity approach the video may not get any traction at all. This is just how the social media game is right now. Spectacularity in presentation is rewarded.

It does shed some light into what would happen if every reholder was re-graded though. There is no person signing it, but if books have to be removed from the inner sleeves to be accurately regraded and checking for missing things like the MVS there is a chance of damaging the book during that process. I am guessing that is why reholders do not go through that type of process right now, which is what the scam artist was exploiting.

I have not had this happen personally but have heard people complaining about this happening when sending in books for signings. My personal experience is limited though so I cant say this is a trend or pattern.

I am guessing that the scam started way back with the older blue thin cases that were shockingly easy to open. When cases evolved the scammer updated the process to work with the new ones.

Yeah. That is how the You Tube game works in general. When you make a video with a title that catches people (e.g., "Huge Scam Exposed!") it draws in views and helps a channel succeed. An even approach used by Dave and some others is more of a slow burn that a community appreciates but is not rewarded as much by You Tube's algorithms.