dmt02908

On 3/27/2023 at 3:40 PM, dmt02908 said:

Thanks for your reply. For whatever reason, I am only seeing this now.

I have resubmitted 35 CGC items with Mechanical Errors including the Wolverine 8.

Is there such a thing as getting compensation beyond just getting complementary re-holders

if the de-gradation of the condition of the books is compromised by CGC's MECHANICAL ERRORS?

Best, Dave

Newton Rings are still a thing in 2024!

On 2/27/2023 at 1:04 PM, Tatterdamillion said:

I feel your plight, that Wolverine 8 is a joke. My last 2 submissions have all been damaged. Some due to poor packing some to mishandling. I hope you get some compensation.

Thanks for your reply. For whatever reason, I am only seeing this now.

I have resubmitted 35 CGC items with Mechanical Errors including the Wolverine 8.

Is there such a thing as getting compensation beyond just getting complementary re-holders

if the de-gradation of the condition of the books is compromised by CGC's MECHANICAL ERRORS?

Best, Dave

On 3/7/2023 at 4:25 AM, ExNihilo said:

Imagine being unsatisfied with 35% of a companies services but continuing to use that company for those same services anyways.  They say "let your wallet speak" but some people continue to muzzle it and whisper "shhhh, don't fight it.  everything's going to be okay."

I hear you, and I have very little defense.

I had that very dilemma on my hands when I submitted the last three hundred books.

I figured that I should just go ahead and submit them for grading since so many of them were in the 9.6-9.8 range. 

I almost sent the books to another company, but CGC is supposed to be the industry "gold standard."

The problem that brought me to the boards, though, is the fact that I recently had 35 our of 84 items come back from REHOLDERING with MECHANICAL ERRORS.

Thanks for your candor,

Dave

On 3/5/2023 at 7:06 AM, Tec-Tac-Toe said:

I agree in that although I only slab comic books and magazines for my personal collection it would still be greatly appreciated to ensure that the product I receive from CGC is at a high rate of quality. Of course, some product will not be at that level, but that is what ME is for, not for having to send, I'll write, 50% of what I receive back for correction. Whether that is due to QC problems or shipping damage is irrelevant to me because it still has to be returned to CGC to be fixed.

That's right. When the problem is multiplied by dozens of a books a year, it becomes problematic, especially since this is a Certified Guaranty company.

Even returning the cases is less of an inconvenience than having the books exposed to handling when they have to re-holder the books because of MECHNICAL ERRORS.

I feel like some of my books, even if they have not been downgraded in terms of the grade, have been de-graded, if only slightly, in terms of their condition.

Thanks,

Dave

On 2/27/2023 at 8:48 AM, Tec-Tac-Toe said:

"However, I noticed that with recent case shipments from CGC, they are no longer placing the cardboard over the open part of the box that used to serve as the top of "box within the box.""

In my experience, CGC shipping went from good to okay to bad to worse and, clearly, it  has gotten even worse. I dread what is up (or is that down) next.

I appreciate your input!

I have been trying to get them to see my particular concerns in a more generalized way.

My goal is to have the graded book business sustainable on all ends. 

Thanks,

Dave

On 3/2/2023 at 7:51 AM, CGC Mike said:

Seems the 2 week window is expiring, write "Approved by Matt Nelson" on the packing slip.  In the future, any mechanical error submissions with the exception of wrong label info, will need to be done within the 2 week time frame.  

Mike,

I appreciate the heads up! I will write "Approved by Matt Nelson" on the packing slips. 

However, the documentation process has been grueling and time-consuming.

The posts in this thread, alone, have taken many hours, especially with getting the photographic documentation right.

I have now documented thirty five books for the return.

Thanks,

Dave

On 2/27/2023 at 1:58 PM, CGC Mike said:

Hi

Send all of the slabs with a problem via the mechanical error option, and we will go over them.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Will do. I will ship them out this Friday.

Best, Dave

On 3/1/2023 at 11:15 AM, Sharon Wang said:

I did want to add something positive though. I think CGC's customer service has improved significantly over the last couple years. Not only is it easy to get a hold of someone, but everytime they are very pleasant and I feel they try to address any issues I have in a very timely manner. Also being able to complete ME subs without having to talk to someone first is great. I'd rather not have to call and bother someone due to a cracked case since I'm sure they have better things to do so this helps.

Thanks so much for your input!

I agree with you. I was working with Jennifer Fuls last year, and she provided outstanding customer service. Everyone else in customer service, before and after, has been friendly. 

One thing I do take issue with, although I understand why this might be the case, is that every time I have asked bigger questions about QC processes and tolerances, I have not received any kind of direct answer. 

That is, when I try to ask more systemic-level issues, customer service contains and compartmentalizes the conversation by focusing on the particular MECHANICAL ERRORS being referenced at that particular time.

Therefore, I feel like my overall concerns have not been addressed even though my aim has always been to make the enterprise sustainable on both sides.

Just so you know, I had a full case of of books that included a high-grade run of the Marvel Comics Presents Weapon X series (72-84) all come in with significant Newton Rings (due, I think, to inner case warping). However, I felt so bad for customer service at that point because I was already sending back 75 books under the MECHNICAL ERRORS designation that I held these back thinking I was making too big a deal about the whole thing. 

Well, when I finally decided to list some of them for sale, I realized that they need to be re-holdered and ended up eating the extra expense of the re-holdering submission.

Thanks,

Dave

As I review this case of re-holdered books, which I will be submitting for MECHANICAL ERRORS reholdering, it appears that there is a pattern of scratching on the inside border of the outer case.

Of course, this could just be a unnoticed (or ignored) production flaw in the case.

However, I noticed that with recent case shipments from CGC, they are no longer placing the cardboard over the open part of the box that used to serve as the top of "box within the box."  

Because the outer case design allows the cases to interlock in shipping and storage, it looks like the interlocking design is actually causing abrasions to the cases in transit because the "box within the box" is now open-ended.

Yes, there is some bubble wrap to fill the gap between the two boxes, but the open-endedness is allowing far more movement of the cases within the box in transit.

If the correlation is correct, here are some of the results:

Again, these are supposed to be re-holdered books with fresh cases, and I have plenty more examples (from the same shipment).

Thanks,

Dave

On 2/25/2023 at 7:58 PM, CGC Mike said:

I am sorry that you are having these problems.  The best I can do is give the team a link to this thread, which I will do.

Mike

 

Much appreciated. I am working up a PowerPoint that I can submit on Monday.

Thanks Mike,

Dave

Out of a case of twenty-five recent re-holders, I pulled twenty from the box with issues that warrant a MECHNICAL ERROS designation:

CGC 9.6 Secret Wars # 8: Scratches on outer case and inner case in the left thigh area:

CGC 9.6 Detective Comics #576: Scratches on outer case and pressed book looks un-pressed:

CGC 9.6 Detective Comics #577: Scratches on outer case and pressed book looks un-pressed:

CGC 9.6 SS Amazing Spider-Man #301: Scratched outer case (front and center) and pressed book looks un-pressed:

NOTE: Book is not laying flat; it is curving upward, stressing the spine, and bubbling the book: 

CGC 9.6 Marvel Tales #237: Scratches on outer case and pressed book looks un-pressed (actually, warped):

CGC 9.6 Marvel Tales #239: Scratches on back cover of outer case and scratches front and center on front:

C

CGC 9.6 Spectacular Spider-Man #101: Scratches on outer cases and pressed book looks un-pressed:

NOTE: Book is bowed; even though it was CCS pressed, it is not laying flat, so it is stressing the spine:

On 2/18/2023 at 7:45 PM, CGC Mike said:

I have been made aware of the problem, and will be speaking with management about it on Monday.  

Mike, I am about to submit what I hope is my final round of MECHNICAL ERRORS on books that I just received back from re-holdering.

That means that these books will have gone through two crack outs before it is all said and done. 

I know that CGC holds no liability for a reduction in the grades of the books upon re-holdering, but it seems very problematic to me when there is a potential downgrading of the book based on the exposure caused by their mistake not mine. 

I have attached photos of one such case here. There is a hair inside the inner case of this CGC 9.8 Wolverine #8.

If you look closely, the area where that hair is has already been stressed. 

So, the question is "Do I risk the downgrading of the book (in terms of condition, not just the grade) to have that removed?"

I didn't put that hair in there. But my book gets exposed to possible damage because of CGC's errors because:

1. whoever encased the book didn't notice the hair; and,

2. whoever quality-controlled the book didn't notice it either.

And what was the original re-holder for? Warped Inner Cases. 

Just so you know, there has never been any indication on any of the submission forms, invoices, or packing slips about the optimal temperature range to keep inner cases from remaining un-warped.

It seems to me that it is precisely because they know that the exposure of these cases to excessive heat in transit will result in the warping that I have documented in multiple PowerPoints.

I think they are just shipping out and hoping for the best or that the customers (and their buyers) won't notice.

As a collector, this is just not acceptable. As a seller, it seems very problematic to me to sell a book that is downgraded in condition but not from the official grade that was originally assigned to the book.

The truth is, I am taking loss after loss (in time, money, and stress) even though everybody else in the supply chain is taking gain after gain.

Thanks,

Dave

Another frustration that doesn't get acknowledged with the MECHANICAL ERROS designation is that it takes sometimes up to twenty photos to properly capture the warped inner case phenomena.

And when I receive an entire case of MECHNICAL ERROR books as a result of their being subjected to severe heat in transit is that it takes me, literally, three to four hours (per case) to photograph the problems, describe the problems in an email using a PowerPoint presentation, fill out the ME submission form, and re-pack the books for the ME return.

On 2/20/2023 at 3:27 PM, lostboys said:

Yep.

 

I asked about this issue on these boards over a year ago.

I actually cracked one book out because I was so worried about the book being damaged.

The problem was the inner sleeve.

I took the inner sleeve out of the slab and It would not lay flat on the table.

I took the book out of the inner sleeve and the book did lay flat on the table.

It looks bad but as long as the spine is straight, the book inside should be fine.

 

Of course though, the book I cracked was a modern book that had only been in the slab for a few months.

Thanks so much for your input!

Unfortunately, some of the spines are not straight. 

Usually, the top third of the book is bent upwards, which places stress right below the top staple.

This stress, in some cases, puts a spine dent just below the issue number/price box in the top right hand quadrant.

Also, take a look at the curl on the open side of the Batman comic book.

Moreover, it looks like Newton Rings are also connected with the inner case warping problem.

For example, this is how I received a 9.8 Batman Adventures #1:

On 2/18/2023 at 11:17 PM, lotofsilver said:

I've submitted a similar number of books and have never felt I've been given a reason to return a book for a mechanical error. Now I'm imagining how much of my extra $3.60, or however much more, I'm paying per book over the last two years is going to cover submissions getting kicked back for ME at an upwards of 50% rate 🤔 

I appreciate your input!

If you are a CGC stockholder/stakeholder, you would be right to be concerned about the amount of MECHANICAL ERRORS that CGC has to address not just with me, but, apparently, many of its clients have had to send books back to CGC for a variety of reasons.

The thing is that I can't just send books back for complimentary reholdering without the MECHANICAL ERRORS being verified by CGC.

They have the MECHANICAL ERRORS designation in their system because they have made the ERRORS. Not me. 

Also, I am just as concerned about keeping the price of pressing and grading at sustainable levels for the following reasons:

1. When CGC does their job right the first time, they add value to the comic books as a commodity that helps cover the multiple overhead liabilities beyond the cost of the books, the pressing, and the grading.

2. When CGC does their job right the first time, the raw books only have to be exposed to direct handling once, not twice or three times, which better ensures maintenance of its original mint status.

3. When CGC does their job right the first time, I only have to wait six to nine months for my books to be pressed and graded rather than another three to six weeks to get them listed on eBay to start recouping some of my investment.

4. When CGC does their job right the first time, I have a lot less stress with a hobby/business that is supposed to be enjoyable. 

5. When CGC does their job right the first time, the business of collecting and selling premium comic books in Mint or Near Mint condition is far more affordable and sustainable for the buyer, the seller, and CGC.

And, finally,

6. When CGC does their job right, they retain their "industry leader" status, which the staff at CGC as well as every collector of CGC graded books can feel good about. 

In fact, when I have inquired about QC tolerances, protocols, and processes at CGC, it is not just out of concern for myself.

I really want to help item identify any systemic inefficiencies that, if properly addressed, can keep the financial and emotional costs down for all involved.

On 2/18/2023 at 7:45 PM, CGC Mike said:

I have been made aware of the problem, and will be speaking with management about it on Monday.  

I appreciate your interest in my situation and any advocacy on my behalf.

I have actually tried to correspond with CGC representatives about my concerns along the way without much more than cursory acknowledgment from them.

That is, I have received plenty of complimentary reholderings under the MECHNICAL ERRORS designation, but I have never received any substantial acknowledgment of my concerns regarding the systemic issues that have made my working relationship with CGC fraught with undue stress and grief.

On the whole, I have done a better job getting my books to CGC in the exact condition that I purchased them in than CGC has done getting them back to me.

On 2/18/2023 at 7:18 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Cute.   You must be new here.

I appreciate your sideways comment!

What I should have said is that "you will not believe what STILL passes through CGC QC."

I have been submitting books since 2019 at a rate between one hundred to three hundred per year.

Out of an estimated total of around 900 submissions, at least 20% percent (approximate 180) books have had to be resubmitted as MECHANICAL ERRORS.

Some books, even twice.

On 2/18/2023 at 6:36 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The best you can hope for is some kind of compensation from CGC.  

@CGC Mike

It doesn’t seem logical to expect them to stop the problems from happening at this point.   Mislabels, debris....even books being encased upside down are nothing compared to CGC actually damaging your books.  
 

It’s truly sad that most damage to vintage comics these days  is the result of sending them into a grading service designed to preserve them.

Here are a couple examples.

The Weapon X book here is clearly warped, and the smudging on the case is not finger prints. That is part of the plastic.

This first book was received two weeks ago.

The mini-comic book here is sealed on three sides, but the book is hanging below the bottom seal. This book is graded 9.8, but if you look closely, the bottom left-hand corner now has a color break. 

The second book was received about a week ago.

On 2/18/2023 at 2:29 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I understand the problem with my suggestion.  Most copper/modern books are worthless in comparison to the same books in plastic.

Again, I appreciate your responding! 

Although I am a pretty accurate grader of books on my own, receiving the CGC grading and the protective case adds significant value to a Secret Wars 8 or a Amazing Spider-Man 252 in a higher grade.

Not so long ago, the price for quick press was $8.00 each (with a submission minimum of 15 books) and $17.00 for the grading. 

At that rate, a case of 9.8 Spawn #1s, even with the shipping back and forth to CGC and the eBay fees, would net around fifty percent above the cost.

On 2/18/2023 at 1:29 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Stop giving CGC your money.
 

 

Thanks so much for responding!

I hear what you are saying. I was going to tap out of the grading business with my last submission of 300 books last year. 

If they had come back in the same condition that I sent them in, but now pressed and graded, I would have done just fine and had a couple hundred happy customers with a case or two of some premium books in the PC.

However, what do you do when you have paid $15.00 for pressing and $18.75 for grading (each), and you receive the books back in worse shape you sent them in and/or cases that are perceptibly flawed either as a result of poor Quality Control or as a result of shipping and handling in non-temperature-controlled environments? 

On 2/18/2023 at 2:25 PM, Gaard said:

He must be making good coinage, regardless of the 100s of ME, otherwise I don't understand why he doesn't do what you suggest.

I am not trying to make a ton of money. I am trying to make my hobby/business sustainable. I started collecting in the early 1990s, so I had a bunch of early Spawn, for example. 

All in all, through additional purchasing since then, I have probably submitted forty or fifty Spawn #1s for grading and received at least thirty 9.8s.

I was selling them a few years ago for between $95 and $110.

Altogether, over the last four years, I have submitted probably around 1,200 books.

On 2/18/2023 at 12:20 PM, Tnexus said:

Pictures? I haven't had any issues, but I'm in a low humidity and heat climate.

I will upload some photos. You will not believe what passes through CGC QC. Please check back in later!

I am writing to ask if anyone else is having issues with warped inner cases with CGC.

Last year, I received a few hundred pressed and graded books from CGC with warped inner cases.

Some of the warping is so significant that it appears to have warped the books themselves.

I have sent hundreds of books back now as MECHANICAL ERRORS, and some have been returned in downgraded condition yet with the original grades.

This is frustrating because I cannot in good conscience ask for the current FMV for a book that appears to be in a lower grade condition than it was originally graded at.

If it is heat warping these inner cases (since the warping seems to be largely correlated to the months I have received most of the books: May, June, July, August), shouldn't there be some provision on the part of CGC to have shipped the books in a temperature controlled environment?

In turn, shouldn't they be responsible for the downgraded condition of the books as a result of the MECHANICAL ERRORS that have led to the warping of the books and/or any damage to the books that occur in the reholdering process?

Because most of my books are modern or copper age, there is a small margin between selling at a sustainable price and selling at cost or loss, so any downgrading of the books is undermining, if not eliminating, any of the value added by the pressing and grading.

In this way, CGC does not appear to be effectively providing the service I am paying for, which is to seal the book in best possible condition as a collector's item to be held or sold.

On the contrary, from my perspective, CGC is currently operating against it designated purposes, and it is compromising the quality of my collectibles, putting my eBay Top Seller status in jeopardy (mainly because of cancelled orders), and therefore ruining the sustainability of my business.

The stress is unreal. 

Any input would be helpful. Thanks.

In the last six months, I have received 75-100 CGC pressed and graded books that look unpressed in the case. In most cases, it looks like the inner case is warped in a way that the books aren't laying flat.

I have attached a photo of a CGC 9.8 Spider-Man #1 Gold Edition, which is a mild example of this "warping." 

Although the phenomena is fairly hard to photograph, it is immediately clear to the eye that something is not right with the presentation of the affected books.

Does anyone else here have experience with this?

Should I consider this within the range of quality control tolerance?

As a collector, buyer, or seller, would you be okay with receiving a book like this?

On 7/27/2021 at 7:53 PM, UNDEROOS said:

VERY poor quality CGC Cases Marred, plastic rubbed, plastic rub dents/scratches on all CGC cases applied on the cover to all 60-70 submissions just arrived this week.

The pride of our 750 books submission looks awful! No one will believe CGC is doing this to all our recently comic book slabs, but they are!

I want to cry when seeing this shameful acceptance by a company we trusted to do right.

I'm having the same experience. 40 of the last 48 slabs had scratches on the front covers at (or near) the center of the cases. Another two had a hair in the inside cases, and one had occlusions on the back cover. 

Moreover, I have received 50 to 100 slabs in which the inside cover is warped to the point of making the pressed comics look unpressed. There is no way I can list these without serious qualification to the customers. 

I have referenced the bowing/warping issue in my emails to customer service, but I've received no acknowledgment regarding the issue or even my concern about it.

I have included a couple photos here. The flaw is not that difficult to see from the front even though it doesn't show up in regular photographs. But I have included photos here of a couple of the books from the side.

These aren't even the worst ones: