ORRGO THE UNCONQUERABLE

1 minute ago, speedcake said:

Ebay can be great. Is buying raw big money books (particularly golden and silver age books most prone to restoration) from unknown sellers the best idea without a whole bunch of experience and knowledge? Probably not lol.  So buy a slabbed copy.  This is a very specific and very, very small % of the ebay comic book market. No reason to toss the baby out with the bathwater.  

The reality is many books I buy between 300-600 come in slabs. I just haggled a Slabbed restored $1200 FF #2 down to $800.  I bought a slabbed 3.0 FF #12 for $500. Am I being ripped off? I dunno but those seemed like decent buys to round out my collection. Then I crack the slab because I don’t dig them. 

8 minutes ago, speedcake said:

Can everyone take a couple of breaths, read what is actually being posted, and step it back a half beat or so? This thread has been a decent read, and there is now some really good opportunities for learning coming up. But if everyone gets hot and the thread gets locked, then all anyone gets out of this is hard feelings.

Orrgo is right, he didn't say he's been buying and flipping on ebay for years. That WAS Blob. Yes he assigned a value to the book, but so what? He didn't imply he was going to try and sell it. He's been pretty insistent its for his personal FF run and that he can't find early FFs for decent prices at his locals.

But @ORRGO THE UNCONQUERABLE you've also gotta be able to step back a sec and not take whats being said personally, because some pretty knowledgeable people are trying to help you out.  Maybe you did get an ok deal for the book HAD YOU KNOWN it was definitely or possibly trimmed.  Having it pointed out that the deal you got was very likely done with deception,  and the frustration caused when that data point is used later (not necessarily by YOU, but uninformed buyers in general) to drive down prices with dealers, isn't a personal attack or some attempt to belittle you while "propping themselves up."

Maybe your  book isn't trimmed. Maybe you should send it off to CGC and show everyone  

A sensible person. Thank you. Yes I agree there’s very knowledgeable people here and I can appreciate their viewpoint. It just came across as angry old guys telling me I’m being ripped off and am stupid for using eBay. I know that’s not maybe what they meant but it comes across that way. There’s a way to say what they’re saying without being bitter know it alls. 

2 minutes ago, drbanner said:

Yeah, and I think that FF 3 cover is trimmed at the top. Anyone else catch that? 

You’re the first person to point that out! What!!?

49 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

I don't think Chuck is annoyed at all.  However if you are ok with buying a book that "might be" restored from a seller who "may have not" disclosed it that makes my job as a on-line/convention seller difficult to compete against.  You are basically telling me that even if the seller ripped you off you are ok with it.  Not exactly the way I want to do business with my customers since a majority of them prefer disclosure versus I find out later when I get it graded or go to sell it.  If somebody has been building a collection and then go to sell it to fund a college education or new home and start finding out their books are restored you don't get smiling faces that they got a "deal"

I love how everyone assumes it’s crazy restored and I’m being ripped off (for $320??) 

a lot of poo pooing me to elevate yourselves and your skills.  Relax.  You all serve a purpose and I’m glad people go to cons and comic shops. I’d love to send it to cgc just to quiet you guys. But I’m not even interested in that because I have no interest in selling it. 
 

in a perfect world my LCS would have a great selection of back silver age back issues with multiple grades of issues. But they don’t and eBay does. C’est la vie 

You didn’t specifically say you’d sell that book, but you did say: 

1 minute ago, Pat Thomas said:

I'm 53

Ahh yeah I figured, only the older dudes like FF this much

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

So you buy an undisclosed trimmed book on eBay for $330, and now you'll turn it around and SELL that undisclosed trimmed book on eBay for $1200? That pretty much sounds like eBay.

This is a PERFECT example of why dealers don't go up against outlier prices from eBay - unqualified sellers AND buyers who think they know grading.

Not to sound like a jerk - everyone here has been down this road at some point in their collecting career - but this is why CGC exists (one of the primary reasons) and why trusted dealers still exist. You buy in the wild and you can very easily get:

a) Someone selling you something who has no idea what they have, where that lack of knowledge can come back to lessen the value of the book in third party grading.

b) Someone selling you something who very MUCH knows what they have and are looking to make you a sucker, NOT disclosing something that can come back to lessen the value of the book in third party grading.

OR

You can go with a trusted and respected dealer who, should something get past him and color touch or trimming or something shows up in grading - he'll make it right for you. Go through the process on eBay a few times and get something graded that was misgraded raw by the seller and try and return it 8 months later and see how much fun that is.

People THINK they're getting a good deal on eBay - that's what eBay is founded upon - so that the buyer can then make some money off of it. But the truth is, that site is more and more filled with people who are out to scam those who are unaware.

The truth is, if you don't know grading and restoration, or even if you're just lazy about looking for it, or the pictures aren't up to par - eBay can be one of the WORST places to buy valuable comics. What I've seen on there - is a long, long history of - if you buy a comic for $900 less than it's FMV - it's because something about that book MAKES it $900 less than it's FMV. Seen it again and again and again. And I've even fallen for it myself, before I learned to know better.

What HELPED you in this situation, wasn't a seller who gave you a good deal, but rather a FORUM of knowledge that can help you keep from having it happen to you again. This isn't a place for know-it-alls to come and constantly try and one up one another (ok, maybe it IS), but rather a place of tremendous information and knowledge that can help ANYONE become more knowledgeable about the hobby and protect themselves from making costly buying mistakes.

Now who knows for sure? Maybe it isn't trimmed. Maybe you got the deal of the year. But history (and expert eyes) has consistently shown otherwise.

You seem annoyed/angry that I got a nice looking FF #3 for $320 bucks. Who said anything about me selling it, I was just speculating and what it’s probably worth. And if it’s “trimmed” (I don’t think it is) then okay I have a great book with minor restoration. I just am a fan of fantastic four and want to own the full run and am happy with any book that looks okay. I’m not looking to “flip” anything.

my point about comic shops (at least in LA) is that I would like to go to them but their selection and prices don’t match eBay. I guess I could see your argument if I was looking exclusively for high grade RAWs and was dropping thousands on single issues but I’m not. I just go to a shop and they don’t have much in terms of silver age back issues - and I live in a major city, I can only imagine if I lived someplace smaller the selection of comic stores would shrink.

I posted FF 3 (cuz someone asked me to) as an example of a nice find. I’m not trying to argue comic shops should close, I love comic shops I’m arguing that for me it makes more sense to use eBay for price and selection. 
 

granted - many of the places I buy from are mike high or comic stores, I just don’t happen to live next to shops that have great selections and multiple grades of silver age issues. 
 

people get really persnickety here, geez. 

2 hours ago, Pat Thomas said:

Hey, I only need FF 1, 3, & 4. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm ever going to get them. Like you, I have volumes 2 through whatever volume is current, plus annuals, minis, and one-shots. No regrets, though. It's soothing to know there's order in those longboxes.

Nice! Another serious FF collector. Curious - how old are you? I don’t find many people my age or younger that would get a full FF run. 

I stopped really collecting past 1998 heroes reborn/return. Once marvel rebooted everything it felt different, aside from busieks avengers nothing felt like what I read in the 80’s.

i now focus on silver and bronze. I just completed my almost full fantastic four run (missing #1 #4 #5)  I just bought everything post heroes reborn where the numbering gets all screwed up. 1-70 500-588 600-611

i also, being a completist I bought the next two volumes limited run and now Dan slotts ultra crappy new FF. His writing is garbage but the completist in me buys anyway hoping a writer who halfway understands action and characters shows up. 

modern writing, especially the last few years has been total drek. New young writers my age (42) or younger who don’t understand the characters, don’t write dynamic action and it’s all sitting around making quips and trying to out clever everyone and use modern slang. I don’t want to her The Thing talk about Memes. Doctor Doom should not be swearing and smacking TV hosts and acting like a insufficiently_thoughtful_person politician.

this is not to mention all the Pc race gender swapping etc etc ( I’m liberal btw) and pandering to anime manga art fans. Nothing is like it used to be and I prefer the way it used to be so thankfully there’s 1961-1998 marvel I can still buy and enjoy. (Though really it’s more like 61-91) 

Everyone’s going nuts for Hickman’s house of x but it’s just more convoluted nonsense. 

32 minutes ago, the blob said:

So you are citing it as a $330 purchase to show how much cheaper ebay is yet say you will sell it for $1200 easy. If it's an easy sale at $1200 why is it an easy buy at $330? Are you saying it is easy to find $900 flips on eBay? If so I might quit my day job.

Didn’t say was easy. Just citing that I’d never be able to walk into a comic shop and find it at that price.  I’d also just plain not find an FF#3. Or it would be rare. Most comic shops I been to in Los Angeles don’t have a ton of Kirby stuff. Just a small selection of none at all. 

5 hours ago, the blob said:

For years I have been buying books from shops and shows and selling them for more on ebay. ebay is not necessarily any cheaper, particularly after you pay for shipping. also, please post that FF 3 you got for $350. Books like that usually don't fall through the cracks on ebay if they are properly graded.

 

Actually $320 bucks. From what I’d say it’s a solid 6.0 so that should sell for $1200-$1600.

an eBay gem 

I’ve bought all kinds of raw silver age on eBay. Just bought Bronze Age marvel two in one #1-100. That’s my issue, I live in LA and I couldn’t walk into any comic shop or con and get 100 issues of a full run, good price or no, most places just don’t have many back issues. 
 

granted some of the places I’ve bought from are actual stores on eBay, they are like in the middle of the country. 
 

my point is I could go to a con and ask if they have FF 19-45 for like under 35/40 bucks a pop and they wouldn’t have it or they would but it would be priced a lot higher. I can go on eBay and get exactly what I’m looking for at a reasonable price. You even find deals. I got an FF #3 grade 5-6 for $350. There’s no way a shop would let that go at that price. 
 

I would love to support dealers but they don’t have the issue availability  nor the right price, 

Slightly off topic but I do haggle at shops and cons slightly (I’m 42) I find that for r what I’m Looking for shops and cons can’t really compare to eBay. I go to a physical place , they don’t have what I’m looking for (mid grade Kirby FF) so I go online and get it at various prices. Or conversely they DO have what I want but they have one copy and I can still get it cheaper on eBay. I’m never looking for high high grade cgc graded, so maybe that’s a different market. 
 

how do dealers even compete with eBay? I honestly would LOVE to go into my LCS but I’m just throwing away money when I do. 

What do people mean by “runs” like the Chris Claremont Byrne “run” on X-men or like 1-100 on titles or like actual full runs as in every issue.

currently I own fantastic four #3 and then #6 - #656. So for me the run is all FF annuals included. I’m only missing 1,2,4,5. 

Having read the Lee Kirby stuff I know have a whole decade of the 1970’s to read. From the 80’s I know everything till about 1998. So that means I will start picking up again in the Pacheco loeb era.

from what I can tell/have heard-  I won’t like mark waids run, JMS, or mark millar but I might like Jonathan Hickman’s run.

currently hate dan slots writing and the art and hoping someone good eventually replaces him and the myriad of bad pencilers.  

I would pay 5.5k if I had it. Nice eye appeal. 

I would say a big no on all those and get FANTASTIC FOUR #1.

its expensive in any grade but once the movie comes out in 4 years or so you’ll see it get even less affordable. 

Its the literal start of the marvel universe and a bigger key issue than most you listed. 

Give it a good movie a huge hit and 10k will get you less then. Get in now. 

3 hours ago, kimik said:

 

I'm missing #1 #2 #4 #5 - this is next on my list. What a great looking copy. A recent purchase?

22 hours ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

 

Very nice! And yes proves my point even more 👌

On 3/7/2019 at 9:48 AM, Straw-Man said:

press/resub got me .5 bumps on 4 & 5!   pretty happy about it.

man o man great looking books! These are way out of my price range, can I ask how much you got for?

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Sure. Lots of debate as to the extent of Stan's involvement. My comment was meant to be casual, not a definitive statement of Stan's contributions. 

 

oh for sure, I just found all this out not too long ago so im over eager to share

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I've said this before...maybe even in this thread...if the cover to #50 (sans Johnny's blurb) had been the cover to #48, #48 would be worth 3-5 times what it is.

You get the sense, from the covers, that Stan and Jack were a bit unsure as to who was the real focus of the story.

By the time they started work on #50, however, it was obvious. And that was before they started getting feedback about #48.

I don't know if Stan's ever said this, but I get the feeling that the Silver Surfer was among the top 3 of his favorite creations...and that's saying something.

 

worth taking a look at these

http://www.tcj.com/jack-kirby-interview/6/

https://comicbookhistorians.com/marvel-1960s-jack-kirby-stan-lee-steve-ditko-who-created-what/

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I've said this before...maybe even in this thread...if the cover to #50 (sans Johnny's blurb) had been the cover to #48, #48 would be worth 3-5 times what it is.

You get the sense, from the covers, that Stan and Jack were a bit unsure as to who was the real focus of the story.

By the time they started work on #50, however, it was obvious. And that was before they started getting feedback about #48.

I don't know if Stan's ever said this, but I get the feeling that the Silver Surfer was among the top 3 of his favorite creations...and that's saying something.

 

 

He definitely loved the Silver Surfer but like most silver age marvel he didn't create it, Jack Kirby did.  Well worth a look for folks to look into that Kirby in fact created almost everything along with ditko. Stan had vague ideas but these guys actually had the ideas. Kirby is quoted as saying Stan didn't know anything about norse mythology or mutations (the origin of their powers)  If you look at chasllengers of the unknown (a jack kirby creation) you see a similar quartet and even a story where the are hit with cosmic rays and get powers.  "Very often," Lee has said, "I didn't know what the hell [Kirby] was going to give me. I’d get some pages of artwork, and I wrote the copy and turned it into whatever story I wanted it to be ... It was like doing a crossword puzzle. I would try to figure out what the illustrations meant and then I would put in the dialog and captions.”

The early Fantastic Four said "written by Stan Lee, drawn by Jack Kirby." Nice and simple. In "Origins of Marvel Comics" and other interviews, Stan Lee indicates that he came up with the ideas and Jack Kirby drew them. But there are several big problems here:

• Both before and after the early 1960s, Stan Lee was not known for producing great new ideas. Jack Kirby, on the other hand, was always producing big ideas, such as Captain America (co-created with Joe Simon) and the Fourth World series for DC (entirely on his own, immediately after leaving Marvel).

   

• Stan Lee was just too busy to write everything, and would often just deliver the faintest outline for a -script. In this letter from 1965 (printed in the book "The Stan Lee Universe") he outlines what became known as "the Marvel method:

   

• Stan would often would just phone in a suggestion and Jack would do the rest, delivering the pages for dialog to be added. For example, Stan said something like "this month have the Fantastic Four fight God" and Jack then created the Galactus saga, perhaps the greatest comic story ever. Famously, when Stan first saw the Silver Surfer he asked "who's this guy?" 
  "Very often," Lee has said, "I didn't know what the hell [Kirby] was going to give me. I’d get some pages of artwork, and I wrote the copy and turned it into whatever story I wanted it to be ... It was like doing a crossword puzzle. I would try to figure out what the illustrations meant and then I would put in the dialog and captions.” (Source) 
  Kirby would even add blue pencil notes for dialog. Stan would then add the actual dialog (which often contradicted what Jack wanted, but Jack seldom had time to read the finished comic). 

• In 1968, the magazine "Castle of Frankenstein" #12 published a Stan Lee interview where he said “Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I’ll just say to Jack, ‘Let’s let the next villain be Dr. Doom’… or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He’s so good at plots, I’m sure he’s a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing… I may tell him that he’s gone too far in one direction or another. Of course, occasionally I’ll give him a plot, but we’re practically both the writers on the things.” (emphasis added) In interviews such as that it seems that when Stan says "writing" he means adding the dialog to the finished art, but when Jack Kirby says "writing" he means deciding what happens from panel to panel, and adding notes in the margins as needed.

• The surviving artwork often includes written notes from Jack telling Stan what is going on. This example (from the Kirby Museum) is from issue 61:
  
   

• Almost everything in the early FF has similarities with other Jack Kirby creations. In particular, the FF has many parallels with Challengers of the Unknown, a series Kirby had just produced for DC. It was about four friends who survived a plane crash and dedicated their lives to the good of mankind. Even the suits were the same. Issue 2 featured one of them crashing in a space ship and gaining various super powers. For full details see Dial B For Blog, probably the greatest comic blog ever.
  

• In later years, Kirby stated plainly that he created it all. 

• Stan openly admits to having a notoriously bad memory, so how he remembers it may not be as others remember it. 

• Stan has a powerful motive for claiming credit: copyright law means that if Kirby created it then he (or his estate) would now be due hundreds of millions of dollars in royalties. But Stan is always the consummate company man, so as long as he claims credit (and takes his million dollar a year salary) Marvel is legally safe. 

•  Kirby ignored most of what Stan wrote. This is from John Romita Sr: "I heard them plotting in other instances! [laughter] Jack would say, 'Stanley, I think I’ve got an idea. How ’bout this?' Stan would say, 'That’s not bad, Jack, but I’d rather see it this way.' Jack would absolutely forget what Stan said, and Stan would forget what Jack said. [laughter] I would bet my house that Jack never read the books after Stan wrote them; that’s why he could claim with a straight face that Stan never wrote anything except what Jack put in the notes. He was kidding himself; he never read them.

Jack Kirby was only paid as an artist, but he felt he should be paid more because he also contributed story ideas. He believed he had been promised payment and it never came, so he finally left Marvel. Years later, in the 1980s, Jack was fighting to get his original art back from Marvel, and the two sides became polarized. Some fans felt that clearly Stan did everything. Others felt that he had taken credit for Kirby's work. Still others felt that their contribution was equal. The battle rages to this day. So who is right?
 

The case against Stan Lee

Some people argue that Jack Kirby created everything. These quotes were assembled by Patrick Ford (see the comments section in the link):

Stan Goldberg:
” Stan would drive me home and we’d plot our stories in the car. I’d say to Stan,”How’s this? Millie loses her job.” He’d say,”Great! Give me 25 pages.” And that took him off the hook. One time I was in Stan’s office and I told him, “I don’t have another plot.” Stan got out of his chair and walked over to me, looked me in the face, and said very seriously, “I don’t ever want to hear you say you can’t think of another plot.” Then he walked back and sat down in his chair. He didn’t think he needed to tell me anything more.”
[interviewer: ” Sounds like you were doing most of the writing then.”]
“Well, I was.”One time I was in Stan’s office and I told him, “I don’t have another plot.” Stan got out of his chair and walked over to me, looked me in the face, and said very seriously, “I don’t ever want to hear you say you can’t think of another plot.” Then he walked back and sat down in his chair. He didn’t think he needed to tell me anything more.”

For contrast, Goldberg said this about Kirby:
“Jack would sit there at lunch, and tell us these great ideas about what he was going to do next. It was like the ideas were bursting from every pore of his body. It was very interesting because he was a fountain of ideas. One day Jack came in and had this 20-page story and proceeded to tell us he was having his house and studio painted. I asked, “Where did you draw the story?” Jack said,”I put my board on the stair banister, and drew it.”

Steve Ditko (letter to Comic Book Marketplace magazine published in issue #63)

"The fact is we had no story or idea discussion about Spider-Man books even before issue #26 up to when I left the book. Stan never knew what was in my plotted stories until I took in the penciled story, the cover, my -script and Sol Brodsky took the material from me and took it all into Stan’s office, so I had to leave without seeing or talking to Stan."

The legendary artist Wally Wood goes even further:

Did I say Stanley had no smarts? Well, he DID come up with two sure fire ideas… the first one was “Why not let the artists WRITE the stories as well as draw them?”… And the second was … ALWAYS SIGN YOUR NAME ON TOP …BIG”. And the rest is history … Stanley, of course became rich and famous … over the bodies of people like Bill [Everett] and Jack [Kirby]. Bill, who had created the character that had made his father rich wound up COLORING and doing odd jobs. 

Gil Kane's opinion of Stan Lee is apparently similar.

"On each page, from 1964 – 1970 next to every single panel Jack wrote extensive margin notes explaining to Lee what was taking place in the story. It took Jack about 2 weeks do do a single story, it may have taken Lee as little as 4 hours to add text to Jack’s art." (source)

In the attached image you can see how much storytelling kirby is doing

Concerning books surging based on the MCU, I'd say the xmen are the furthest ways off. With 20 years of lots of xmen movies and two more getting released i believe Feige will want to introduce them last. I'd bet on the Quantum realm introducing the FF in a possible time travel tale being first. That means first appearances of Doom the surfer and Galactus which are already incredibly expensive will probably only get more so.  Black widow and the Eternals are getting their own movie. Feige seems to want to explore the weirder corners of the marvel universe before he gets to the big players like FF and Xmen.  Wolverine would be my guess as the first xman introduced (would be cool if it was in a solo hulk movie) .

My money is on FF 5 which is crazy hard to buy even at .5 grade will be the one to have if Feige really nails him, he has the potential to be a darth vader level villain and so far on screen they have completely blown it, but that could change.

On 2/28/2019 at 12:22 PM, 1Cool said:

Could be a wise move but the only negative to the huge increase it has brought a bunch more mid and high grade copies to market.  I've got 4 copies left out of the 15 I had and these last 4 have stalled where as the earlier copies flew off the shelves.  I love the cover - love the story but are people really thinking Annihilus will be a cool up and coming villain?  I hold more faith in Franklin being the future star of that book since he could be fit into a bunch of different shows and movies.

James Gunn almost used Annihilus if not for the rights issue at the time.  Considering the Eternals are next in the MCU and the FF and Doom are coming, Im 100% positive marvel and feige are completely excited to have amazing villains under their roster now.  Galactus and Doom will probably be the most heavily featured but Annhilus will be up there as the cosmic side of marvel expands they need Cosmic villains that arent galactus and negative zone baddies like Annhilus and Blastaar are sure to feature heavily in the next decade in the MCU. Count on it. I don't really "invest" in comics but if I did I would try nabbing some eternals.