LearnedHand

Exactly! People often point to this to say "we don't need no stinking' mylar." But I think this totally misses the point. I mean, let's compare Church's situation to, for instance, mine. Me: Northeast; acid rain; air pollutants; fall-out; hot humid summers; cold wet and dry winters. All this begets my putting my books in a temp/humidity controlled dark environment. Which also means they are now in a closed environment (mylar and backing board, in a box) that keeps the comic acidic off-gassing with the book. Church: perfect environment. Cool, low humidity, dark - constantly - and nothing stopping the books from off-gassing / air exchange. So, when people talk about Church's collection as an argument for "no need to take any special storage measures," it's like someone living in a hot, dry, no A/C house who has a pricey wine collection saying I don't need a Eurocave (or similar) because in France people just throw their bottles in their cellars - completely overlooking the fact that those cellars are naturally ideal wine storage environments.

Bought some GA bound volumes years ago. A well-know GA superhero; the volumes include the key book from the run and a few of the classic covers. The comics books in each are in beautiful condition, with incredibly vibrant and defect-free covers and ow/w or c/ow pages throughout. Spines seem to be intact (not cut in the binding process), but presumably, they are all stitched into the volume, and all are trimmed on 3 sides. Question: more valuable as-is? Or taken apart where I'd have beautiful copies - but that are trimmed and likely have stitching holes?

Well, Gerber is out of acid-free boxes - indefinitely again. BCE's prices remain absolutely insane ($50/box - what?!), Bags Unlimited has acid neutral corrugated plastic boxes, but from what I can tell, one size and it isn't necessarily wide enough and is short, so it stores only 80 books. Any other options? Actually, my primary discussion points: Acid-Free boxes. I've done a lot of research over the years on proper storage for ephemera and comic books. Basically, environment is everything. Temperature, humidity, fluctuations in either, storage materials, etc. As an archival expert that used to do work for the Library of Congress once told me - newspaper and comic books are sponges. They soak up the environment and you will see manifestations over time. On that basis, I've always used acid free boxes. But ...is there any real value in using them? I know many people say "no" because the books aren't touching the box. But that's not the whole story, is it. In an acidic lidded box, the inside environment is one where the books are surrounded by an acidic material that is constantly off-gassing. True, the acidic box isn't physically touching the books, but it is touching the mylar bags on at least one and as many as three side. And, the acidic gas is increasing inside the box, if it's kept closed for any period of time. Now the lidded boxes aren't hermetically sealed, so some of the off-gassing will escape the box. But mylar bags aren't hermetically sealed either. And, mylar is also somewhat gas (and moisture) permeable. So, your books are sitting in a "closed" environment, in constant contact with an acidic material, where there is a constant acidic off-gassing. Mylar/backing board/microchamber paper. Comic book paper itself is acidic. I actually did an experiment in the early 1990s - left several new comic books in mylar with acid-neutral backing boards (not acid-free buffered the absorbs acidity). 10-20 years later, these acid-neutral boards were brown. They looked burnt. And, the comic book back cover images had, in a sense transferred (as a ghost image) onto the boards. So, putting your books in mylar protects them from the outside world; but not from themselves. A comic book with a Gerber full-back board is better, as the board will absorb acidity and then remain neutral. But it will eventually reach a critical mass and not be able to absorb any more acid. And, query whether the board is absorbing acid from the entire book or primarily the back cover (and whatever off-gasses from the book's pages). MicroChamber hasn't been deemed an archival use item by the Library of Congress, per se. It's used, but not for the context we're discussing - sucking up acid from acidic paper. So, still analyzing the best way to store the books. Thoughts?

Well, not exactly a cover, but I was just going through some stuff to see what I can prune, and found this! This is actually my absolute fave Raboy piece of those in my collection. Done for George Roussos' art book, totally spontaneous, rendered in pencil (no erasures), and has a lot of depth or points of interest if you look closely. Among other things, it shows he was a southpaw; was ahead of his time in style (got the millenial scruff look - lol); saw the world exploding around him; that this piece was done around 1944, as it has WWII symbolism and Mac working on Green Lama. Enjoy ...

Good post. I'd like to point out some other aspects that also get overlooked, to add to your points with respect to BINs: Many sellers aren't fully in command of what the market will bear for many books, so a BIN might not always be a good idea, as this can leave $$ on the table. While BIN books sell every day, there are very many BIN books that sit on eBay for eons. There is a time-value of money and opportunity lost by waiting for items to sell via BIN and not having those funds available for other purchases. When I see a "BIN" seller who has books priced well over GPA, experience has taught me to put that seller in the "avoid" category. I would contact these "BIN" sellers and ask if they'd sell at even high GPA. Invariably, responses were "GPA is too low." In a sense, this is laughable, as GPA is a ticker-tape of actual sale prices, even if not 100% comprehensive. So, the corollary is - if I decide to sell books, the last person I would ever trust them to is one of these "BIN" sellers. I assume that, like me, others don't take them seriously and therefore my items might sit unsold indefinitely, or will not do as well due to a limited audience. Finally, even pros that know how to price can't anticipate bidding wars between people caught up in the frenetic pace of an auction setting. A BIN might offer certainty, but I think it can also amount to opportunity lost. As such, the fees charged by auction houses are sort of incidental to the overall analysis for me - with the understanding that, as I indicated in my first post, the fees are generally equivalent, as has been my experience.

This isn't the thread to be discussing Gerber, but my own negative experience with him made me want to go see him for a face-to-face "visit." I was in high school, had a P/T job that paid peanuts, but spent all of it to order 200 Super GA mylars and boards. He sent me 100 "modern" bags (so, of no use), no boards, and a spray can straight outta Batman's utility belt that was (from memory) some sort of anti-acid spray. I called and explained the mix-up to him. His entire response was "let me put you through to someone who cares, Mr. Tone" and hung up the phone on me. I've rarely heard anyone say anything positive about his personality, and have sometimes wondered if his Gerber scarcity index reflects scarcity, or the reticence of the collectors he knew to want to actually get involved with him for his Photo-Journal project. Discussion for another day... @sfcityduck This is an AMAZING thread - thanks so much for not only starting it, but taking so much of your time to provide the detail. In my opinion, this type of thread enriches all of us. When I saw the first post, I immediately thought of Edgar Church, but then rejected, as he wasn't, to my mind, a true collector. I always had the sense that he bought comic books more as source material, and maybe had a hoarder mentality or a touch of OCD. Blasphemy? Probably, but I don't know too much about him. I then thought of Leonard Brown. Richard subsequently posted about LB and can speak more thoroughly on LB. I mean, many of us know about LB from around the time he decided to amass books to make a business go of it. But I believe he would have been a child in the 1940s too, and presumably, he had a love for comic books well before he came on the scene as a businessman? And, LB was constantly looking for upgrades and kept a personal collection, so we know he had a love for the books. Finally, it's my understanding that he was the proprietor of the first store - with a store front on a main street - devoted solely to comic books/art in the US. This is certainly a milestone in advancing the hobby. Finally, there was a kid (approx 12 years old) on an episode of To Tell the Truth who, from memory, had a huge collection (thousands of books). He's not a contender for "first" as I believe that episode dates to the 1950s; but it just goes to show the level of collecting well before the advent of the 1960s hobby movement more formally began.

Well, I think you can expand that - I mean, if you take out the word "heritage" this would still be true.

So many of the threads on this same topic have the same assumption - that there is a difference in fees between auction houses that affect the seller's profit or the buyer's purchase price. All auction houses are negotiable on fees, full stop. They all realize they have competition; and also that sellers know that sophisticated buyers will add the vig and State tax to their top bid so that overall cost will be no greater than buying elsewhere. My experience: no difference in the deduct from any auction house through which I've sold. And, I believe my yield is highest through Heritage, perhaps due to their multi-faceted approach (internet, phone, and in-person bidding). I also like HA's website due to visual presentation. Whereas, eBay, my former fave buy/sell source, has become the most expensive sales avenue for the typical, as the all-in deduct includes both eBay and Papyal fees. And, buying is almost non-existent these days for me. Most books in which I'm interested rarely come up on eBay and when they do, most are not auction style / start at prices that far exceed GPA.

Yeah ... no. That dog don't hunt. Overall, they are moving up, but overall, not in any way that would make any rational person think "gotta get 'em now before they sky-rocket." At least en masse. I think someone else said it well, when they pointed out that the lack of these characters being on your newsstand and in your comic book shop for years contributed to the secondary market interest today. I actually liked the film and hope that their future efforts will improve and bring a wider audience/interest to these books. Now, if we're talking about specific titles or books, that's different. Raboy's work, certain first appearances, etc. are def growing in popularity and strength. But, with respect to (especially) Raboy Masters, I think there is also a vicious circle keeping these books undervalued. On the one hand, the books are widely revered and extremely sought after. But so many of these are so rare in the marketplace, esp. in grade. You don't just go to GPA and see 10 sales of Master 27 in say 7.0, 8.0, 9.0, etc. to have an idea of FMV. As such, the lack of an established market creates reticence to sell, especially at the Overstreet (way under-valued) pricing; and many collectors who are looking for these books (but who aren't completely in-the-know on just how rare these books are in the marketplace in grade) fear they could be over-paying (by paying over Overstreet) because there isn't a lot of actual sales data out there.

Surprised to see some of the "sky is falling" comments. I bid on approx. 12 GA and SA books (mostly GA) and in almost all cases, the overall sale price exceeded the GPA data for the high watermark for the given book in the given grade. In some cases by a decent margin. I think we often look at record high reported sale prices for a few specific keys and if the latest sale prices for those keys in similar grade are lower, we extrapolate to assume the deviation applies broadly. I also think it's wise to put sales prices into context. It's no secret that when a given key has several very high-grade copies come to market in a relatively short time-span, sale prices aren't always linear. The overlay is that some economic experts keep hinting at a possible upcoming economic downturn. This tends to breed conservatism when it comes to putting big bucks into things like comic books - so possibly fewer bidders vying for the same material. In terms of the All Winners #6: on the basis of the assigned grade, the CGC4.5 should have sold for more than the CGC 3.5. Anyone looking at the books; however, would see the CGC4.5 had been - very apparently - taken apart and put back together, red dots all over the cover, obvious wear, and rusty staples. Eye appeal was nowhere near that of the CGC3.5 - in my opinion.

Video game collecting: the aspect I can't completely get my mind around is: unlike encapsulated comic books and baseball cards, comic art, cels, fine art, etc., where the joy comes from what you can see, the joy from a video game generally comes from playing it, not the packaging. Suspense #3: if you ignore the tape pull, it's a gorgeous copy with nothing else marring the cover image. Sup #1: did anyone ever determine the defects to reconcile the scans with the grade?

I guess autograph rarity partially depends on personal experience. Growing up in NYC, I used to see and get autographs from some of these perceived "rare" talents at the large NYC shows, such as Bob Kane who even kissed my mom's hand when we met him. I suspect that 3 of the rarest (if not non-existent) autographs are those of Mac Raboy, Bert Christman, and perhaps Matt Baker.

Ok, I located the convention program. Here are photos of the cover and a few folios. You'll note Frank Miller's autograph (he also signed DD158 for me) and LB Cole's more personalized autograph to me. Cole actually asked me which of his was my fave cover and shockingly, he did a "quick" ish pencil sketch for me of that cover - Mask 1. Maybe I'll dig that out and post it too?

When I decided several years ago to sell a few books, I experimented by giving some to Heritage and some to CL (CC wasn't yet a player). I was happier with HA than CL for several reasons. I was recently solicited to sell again through CL and compared it to HA. In broad strokes, I concluded that CL's sales model is laser focused on a single selling facet - internet capture. There are flyers that come via spam emails; and the auction participant capture is purely via on-line bidding. HA sends out a set of slick physical catalogues; there is a physical gallery where you have the option to see the actual books; there's a website with high quality front and back cover scans of all Signature Auction books; and there is internet bidding; live phone bidding; and live auction floor bidding. In essence, a multi-faceted advertising, marketing, and sales campaign. Based on this, and a competitive fee arrangement, I again went with HA. And, in the process, sold the 2nd highest graded National Comes #7 for an enormous premium - but this of course is anecdotal (but thought you'd appreciate it, Lou Fine). The real question is: despite the vast differences between these two sales models, is there an appreciable difference (statistically, not anecdotally) in what the consignor nets using one auctioneer over the other? Lou Fine - it seems you have exp with CC and CL, so I'd be grateful for your input here too ...

Since this is an EC Fan Addict Thread: Does anyone remember and/or did anyone on this thread attend the NYC convention greatly dedicated to E.C. - back in I think 1982? Despite the focus, I met L.B. Cole, Frank Miller, Wrightson, and other non-EC stable talent. Let me see if I can find the show program and post it - it was dedicated to the publisher and from memory had articles on most of the key creative folks ....

Yes, completely agree! Maybe an illogical quirky collector thing, but coded copies are def my preference. In terms of the OP query, I do think some pedigrees get the "nod" for whatever reason. But, I also think this applies to some keys, regardless of pedigree/non-pedigree status.

There is another aspect to selling through Heritage I don't think anyone mentioned? The 20% buyer's premium is going to be factored into any intelligent bidder's max bid to the potential detriment of the seller. Example: in an auction where there is no buyer's premium and say a 10% seller's premium, if the bidder wants to pay a max of $1k, he/she bids $1k and say wins the book at that price. The seller nets $900. With Heritage, the bidder can only bid to approx. $830 to stay at/below the $1k bid cap, given the buyer's premium. This means that even at a 10% seller's premium (I know their default is 15%), the seller nets approx. $747. Now, Heritage can do things to off-set this, but you have to negotiate this assuming you have books were it makes sense for them to negotiate. Full Disclosure: Despite the above facts, I prefer selling through Heritage in cases where the deducts can be negotiated.

Startling 11, Suspense 8, Mask 1&2. Taste is obviously subjective, but to me, the first two listed are phenomenal comic book covers; the latter 2 are almost like masterpieces from a famous painter you might see in a museum.

We like to discuss and display our paper treasures here. What about a different type of thread that showcases the different ways our four color faves have transcended into pop culture? I'll start - I was in Budapest last summer for business and during some down-time, I took a walk across the Danube over Chain Bridge and there was a very large guy walking in front of me who looked like a local pro bodybuilder and clearly not a comic book collector. Check out his calves!

Thanks Bird. That was my best guess too, but I was working under the assumption that all books in Overstreet were listed by the title in the insignia - thanks again.

They gave me the same response, and I have to say that they responded to my emails, which was a very pleasant surprise. But my experience has been different in terms of whether or not the creasing impacts the book. I've been buying from EGP for maybe 25 years and, through serendipity, had one other batch of boards from maybe 15 years ago with a similar issue. I used them on books from the mid-1990s, some of which have very flimsy, yet very shiny, cover stock. After approx. 10 years of sitting very tightly packed with other books in boxes, you can see traces of those same crease in the shine of some of the covers - especially the dark ones. Not every book, and nothing major. But at the same time, the sort of thing that I'm guessing could turn a 9.6 into a 9.4 or whatever by the slab companies? In terms of the comment of EGP being very pricey, I don't have a dog in this fight, so - wth respect - suggest you first compare EGP's pricing against its main competitor out of Massachusetts before saying EGP is very pricey ...

Picked up a couple OO collections along the way and finally decided to put some books on Fleabay, so want to make sure I am listing stuff correctly. Admittedly, I'm not a Disney guy, so thought this was a Four Color. But the insignia says otherwise. I can't find it listed in the Overstreet Guide under the title in the insignia, nor does it align with the Four Color books for Feb-March 1955. Anyone?

Funny you should say this - I've been going to NYC shows since the 1970s and I can tell you that Action #1 was seldom seen, but you'd see Superman #1 (and Cap #1). And yes, paper drives certainly gobbled up comic books. But let's challenge these points a little. If we use your method and asked "old timers" back in say 1965 how many Action #1s they thought existed, I suspect a large majority would have said like 10 -20 copies, as it was rarely seen in the marketplace. Today, there are like 68 copies that CGC alone has seen. Not crazy common, but certainly not as rare as what people perceived based on what was available in the marketplace. In terms of the paper drives: people often use this to argue the scarcity of a given book, yet there are very many GA books of the same vintage as Superman #1 that are common today despite those same paper drives - books that were probably not nearly as dear to the owners as say a Superman #1. Bat #1 came out in 1940 and is considered common - I think Leonard Brown owned 50 copies himself at one point. But, this is all anecdotal and wasn't at all my point - frankly, I don't know or particularly care to speculate over how many copies of any given book exist. Point was that I think the labels "scarce" or "common" are relative and a perception based largely on the CGC census and availability in the market place. Put it this way, even a book with say 1,000 existing copies sitting in collections for the past 30 years isn't necessarily "common" if it rarely turns up for sale.

I think this conversation should be qualified by what's common or scarce in the marketplace. I think it's important to note that how scarce or plentiful a book is in the marketplace often largely depends on factors unrelated to the actual number of existing copies. Someone mentioned that Detective #187 used to be considered rare but now there's a good supply of it on eBay. What I see is that there are a few lower grade copies regularly available, but you do not see Fines or nicer showing up for sale - almost ever. Are there 10,000 existing copies in VF that people own and don't sell, or are there 100 existing copies with 80% of them in VG or lower condition - unknown. I've had the "Superman #1 discussion" with many people over the years, as many think this book is scarce. With over one million copies printed, it's reasonable to assume that 10% or even 5% still exist. If so, that's still a lot of existing copies - and maybe even more in some cases than the number of copies of other books that have even had warehouse finds. I also think people forget that many books were put away in collections before the internet and are just unknown. Although, it's funny how when a book becomes "hot" and there is some sales data, more copies come out of the woodwork. In terms of "common" books - there have been more than a few warehouse finds over the years. Several issues of Crime Does Not Pay turned up this way at the turn of the century, with #27 showing up in droves back then. Same with Green Lama #7, Great #1, Perfect Crime #7, and Batman #22.

Bloody awesome cover! Don't want to repeat some of those already posted, so here are two more contributions that I think are also great.