Albert Tatlock

This is mostly speculation, I readily admit, but there may be some ideas worth pursuing.

 The circular T & P stamp had a dual function, the primary one being to display the price.

 The top half, with the number, was intended to convey some information, but what information, and to whom?

 Clearly not to the purchaser, the end user, to whom it would have been unintelligible.

 So it was for the benefit of the wholesaler, the retailer, or possibly T & P themselves

 If it were an indicator of the shelf life of the individual comic, then it would inform the newsagent of how long that item had been on his shelf, and when he could return it for a credit.

 Maybe there was a window of opportunity for returns. Say, for example, the new delivery were stamped with a number 7. The newsagent would have known when to expect this delivery, and would have his returns bundled up ready, an operation, after all, which he performed daily with his newspapers. Say that he was entitled at this point to return anything marked with a 5, and those found their way back to the warehouse. The following month, he would return number 6, and receive fresh stock marked 8, and so on.

 This would prevent his stock from becoming stale.

 If the number represents a deadline for returns, it would incentivise him to weed out the out of date items. It would also help T & P to guard against any unscrupulous dealers who attempted to take advantage of the SOR facility by introducing cheaply bought secondhand material back into the supply chain. If T & P would accept only that month’s legitimate returns, stamped with the relevant number, any would-be fraudster would have to wait up to 9 months to cash in.

 The SOR system was already open to abuse in the USA, as the publishers accepted returns of just the top portion of the front cover, leading to the availability of incomplete copies on the secondhand market, sometimes marked with a price as low as 1 cent. These can still be found on ebay to this day, but there do not seem to be any three quarter British equivalents, so T & P must have insisted on the return of the full comic.

 Once again, I stress that the number was not connected to any calendar month, but just to T & P’s internal accounting system. More numbers could have been used, of course, but 9 would be sufficient in these circumstances. It did not even need to be numbers, letters would have been an acceptable alternative. After all, A, B, C, D could perform the same function as 1, 2. 3, 4 and so on.

Just off up the wooden hill meself. As soon as my teeth have dropped into the glass I will be snoring.

But the numbers are not tied to any particular month. They are just an indicator of how up-to -date any given issue is.

if your shop has just taken delivery of a batch of comics stamped with No 1, you can keep the Number 9 and 8 for the time being, but anything lower has had its chance, and can be returned for a credit.

And the numbers do not correspond exactly with the cover date.

As previously noted, Journey Into Mystery was running a month behind, so the, for example, its December issue was current as long as the January issues of other titles. What mattered was the number stamped on that JIM. It corresponded with the rest of the batch with which it had arrived, which would have shown a variety of cover dates in the case of DC, and no cover date at all in the case of Marvel. The newsagent would have been bewildered if there had not been this method of indicating how up-to-date each comic was.

My Uncle Albert, who I am running this account for, has fallen out with Ena for the time being, but he says you seem a decent chap.

He is 140 next birthday, so cannot get out much, but he says to let us know next time you will be in t'Rovers and he will shuffle round an treat you to half a mild.

If the newsagent went through his stock, he could see that if his new delivery was, say, numbered 8, then anything lower than that was now out of date.

Not every comic sold, so to hold onto them all would mean an ever-increasing stockpile, meaning more money tied up.

At intervals, therefore, he would weed out the oldest items and return them for a credit. 

In the case of my local newsagent, a little man came and parked his little dark blue or purple van outside the door and carried various bundles in and out. If I pestered the owner for a look at the comics, I would be told that they were not ready yet (they must have been lower down the packing order that the stuff for older customers), and if I came back a little later all would be well. The van driver and the newsagent would then hold a conclave with various sheets of paper, but no money, changing hands. Highly mysterious to me at the time, knowing nothing of the inner workings of the capitalist system.

I still remember what my mother told me what to say when taking in the money for our account 'pay for the papers, 138'. We had a daily newspaper, a woman's magazine and 2 weekly British comics on order, so the amount never varied.

Cheers

I am presuming that they were being recycled by T & P, as they arrived alongside the regular priced items, not every month in my locality, probably 3 or 4 times a year. 

As T & P had an effective monopoly on the distribution, who else could have supplied them? There are enough of them around to suggest that they were available nationwide and had not passed through the hands of a purely  local outlet.

T & P would surely not have supplied a third party to undercut their own items, so the only explanation I can think of (and I thought of it at the time) is that these had been dredged up out of the warehouse whence came the current month's crop, to try and squeeze a little more revenue out of them.

Also, who but T & P would put a comic on sale with an INCREASE in the cover price, as on the Flash 142 you have shown, and my FF 2?

I have some more of the triangular stamped items squirreled away, will try to unearth some soon.

On the subject of the numbers in the top half of the earlier T & P stamps, surely these were a coded signal to the newsagent on which to return at the next opportunity, to receive a credit. if a comic had not shifted after say 2 months, it would be parcelled up and sent back when the next delivery came in.

Having said that, back issues could quite frequently be found, up to a year after they were originally offered for sale. It would depend on the alertness level of the individual shopkeeper. I obtained JIM 58 still on sale in a nearby shop in the late summer of 1961, along with a couple of other  supposedly expired issues. I went back a couple of weeks later expecting to be able to fill more gaps, but alas there were by that time only the latest batch, the same as those available everywhere, 

On 7/21/2020 at 7:29 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Posting in one of my threads is the very definition of barrel scraping TMR  (thanks for the kind post on your own blog by the way)

And what's up with Spider-Man? 

The later ones are the same colour as the ink pads we used to use in the Bank years ago to stamp cheques and stuff. Sort of purpley. But having already burrowed through the bottom of the barrel with the numbering, even I wouldn't dare research stamp colour variations.

 

Or would I! 

I posed this question earlier in the thread - what happened to the unsold UK newsagents copies? No evidence I'm aware of and there aren't enough remaindered compendiums out there to cover all titles in my opinion (Double Doubles only had DC and the odd Marvel - what about the Charltons, Archies etc?). I bet they just sat there until sold or were dumped. 

Thorpe & Porter recycled their unsold stock periodically, usually at reduced prices.

The triangular stamp on this was found on comics alongside the regular 9d and 10d versions, usually on issues 2 or 3 years out of date. 

I had thought they tailed off about 1966/67, but have recently noticed a couple from 1971.

In theory, there is a chance they could turn up on anything from 1959 onwards.

Anyone want to do the spadework on gathering a full set? There could be even more than the 3021 or so Marvel UKPVs, as they appeared on anything T & P distributed.

Thanks, I would put them on the other board if I only knew how to shift them across.......???

The triangular stamp on this was found on comics alongside the regular 9d and 10d versions, usually on issues 2 or 3 years out of date. 

I had thought they tailed off about 1966/67, but have recently noticed a couple from 1971.

In theory, there is a chance they could turn up on anything from 1959 onwards.

Anyone want to do the spadework on gathering a full set? There could be even more than the 3021 or so Marvel UKPVs, as they appeared on anything t & P distributed.

5 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Another example of that stamp type here on a DC that also has a T&P 9d stamp:

These stamps, I think, are those T & P put on recycled unsold stock. Most, but not all, were at reduced prices. Will upload a couple of examples.

Cents copy of FF # 2 with what looks like a Thorpe & Porter 10d stamp. Bought from a local newsagent in 1965 or 1966. Only just noticed it is a cents.

Did T & P recycle unsold Marvels from USA as well as Dcs?

IW reprint with what looks like a Miller stamp.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/warren-and-wignall-ltd/catalogue-id-srwar10238/lot-e610b916-c400-4bde-b69f-ac4900d2eda1

This lot was estimated at £50/£100, and may have gone for that kind of figure were it not for Werewolf By Night # 32 (9p version, excellent condition, approx VFN) lurking unsuspected therein.

However, just 1 day before the sale, after having only the picture of the cardboard box with the top 2 mags showing, the auction house added the other scans, and WBN # 32 lurked no longer.

I was the only bidder in the room and another bid or two would have sent me home empty handed. I hoped against hope that no-one else had inspected the contents, but obviously a rival had got his fingers dusty.

Miseed this one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Werewolf-By-Night-31-32-34-1st-Appearance-Of-Moon-Night-Marvel-Comics-Bronze-Age-/114331897621?hash=item1a9eb64f15%3Ag%3AvfUAAOSwHX9fJFbM&nma=true&si=507ur%2FvaBShw7thFIZ2AWYgH0Yw%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/warren-and-wignall-ltd/catalogue-id-srwar10238/lot-e610b916-c400-4bde-b69f-ac4900d2eda1

This lot was estimated at £50/£100, and may have gone for that kind of figure were it not for Werewolf By Night # 32 (9p version, excellent condition, approx VFN) lurking unsuspected therein.

However, just 1 day before the sale, after having only the picture of the cardboard box with the top 2 mags showing, the auction house added the other scans, and WBN # 32 lurked no longer.

I was the only bidder in the room and another bid or two would have sent me home empty handed. I hoped against hope that no-one else had inspected the contents, but obviously a rival had got his fingers dusty.

Thank you.

I should have put in a bit higher bid for the Atom lots as well - the 3 Showcase were there.

But I think the best value for money was the Flash bundle - No 123 was there, in tip top shape.

All you have to do is win the lottery and you will scoop these up next time around. Keep risking your quid.

It was indeed an original owner collection, spoke to him after the sale.

First question obviously was 'have you got any more?', alas the response was in the negative.

Oh, and they had the cheek to charge a fiver for the catalogue, most of which was Meccano and Dinky toys, etc.

Room was full of sad old codgers trying to recapture their childhood, not a bit like us, eh?

At least viewing and bidding was live. Fed up of not being able to see the stuff up close.

It has been a long, long time since i saw such quality stuff in such condition. The publicity it will no doubt generate may tempt some coffin dodgers to cash in.

I invested in lots 591, 593, 594 and 596, setting me back some £2700.

I would have like to have gone for the FF and Spiderman, as many would have upgraded my own copies, but the prices were a bit over my budget.

This auction house charges 17 and a half %Buyer's Premium (21% with VAT), not as bad as some.

I met the vendor after the sale, and he was unaware of the dded Buyers' Premium, but he declared himself happy with the outcome. Total realised was roughly 40K, out of which he can expect 27K or so, but, as usual, the auctioneers did not rush to bring the 2 commissions they charge to the attention of the vendor, preferring to tuck it away in the small print.

Another anomaly in distribution dates was that Amazing Adventures # 6 arrived before # 5.

At that time, the cover date on the latest available DCs was 3 months or so behind real-world time, and the Atlas/Marvel titles roughly kept pace with the calendar.

On browsing in my local papershop in late September 1961, I unearthed Amazing Adventures # 6, dated November, a situation I had not come across before. I pointed this out to the newsagent, but for some unaccountable reason he did not consider the matter worthy of further investigation.

Issue # 5 arrived at a nearby shop about 3 weeks later, in line with expectations, and order was restored to the Universe.

Just returned from this auction:

https://www.hartleysauctions.co.uk/sales/toy-collectors-sales/ag031020/view-lot/611/

Many early pence copies, great shape, but great prices too.

FF 1 and Spiderman 1 both fetched 5 figures.

Possibly T & P were caught on the hop, not having received anything from Atlas before.

Anyway, I do remember seeing Suspense 9 several times at secondhand outlets during the early to mid 1960s. It was, if anything, more frequently found than Suspense 10. The first few months of Atlas importation were very sketchy, though, and the quantities available did not increase until the summer of 1961, but they were still scarce compared with DC. The Superman and Batman titles swamped everything else, but a few of the mystery titles were very difficult to find, you had to be quick. My local newsagent did not receive copies of every title, just a random selection, so I had to comb the whole area to fill the gaps, and even then had to rely on street markets and secondhand dealers, plus swapping with other kids, to build up a decent collection.

The Buyer's Premium charged by the auction houses is a long-running scandal. Excalibur add 31% to the hammer price, but the vendor gets not a penny of it, and also pays Excalibur 20% of the hammer price.

So, the buyer has paid a total of £17,030 for the AF 15. The vendor receives £10.400, and Excalibur pocket £6,630. Nice work for an outlay of zero, they take no risk at all.

Another disturbing facet is that the auction houses try to conceal the additional commission they take from the vendor, by referring to the hammer price as though it were the total sale price, which it clearly is not.

Many items are consigned to auction following bereavements, when the vendors are at their most vulnerable, especially if they are elderly.

There are a few honourable firms who charge no Buyers Premium, or only a reasonable amount, but these are becoming few and far between, and the industry norm is now about 30%. 

If they were honest, the auctioneers would inform their their vendors that they charge 2 commissions, and that the vendor should expect only about 55-60% of the total amount paid by the buyer. 

Not holding my breath, though.

Astonish # 9 and Suspense # 9.,  were definitely available in England. I was not collecting early enough to find them on the newsstands, but I had copies of both, and so did a few other local collectors. I still have the copy of Suspense 9 that i bought in the summer of 1967 from JM Heal of Weston-super-Mare.  This was before any large scale purchases by UK collectors from US sources.

His copies were signed in the top margin of the back cover and I still have many of them.

During the mid 1960s I came across both of them more than once, although they were definitely scarce, but then, so were all the 1960 Atlas issues. 

A couple of stray issues could turn up anywhere, but the May 1960 Astonish and Suspense were about in the sort of quantities that the corresponding no. 10s were, so i am sure that they would have been available at the newsagents at the time.

How about this for a hypothesis... these 2 issues were shipped before it was realised that the customer (T & P) wanted a UK price printing, or maybe it was already too late to alter the printing plates for the cover (the covers were printed in advance of the interior, remember). This was then corrected the following month, by which time the May JIM was also ready and went on sale alongside the June issues.

Suspense 11 never turned up, though, nor Astonish 12 and 13, either pence or cents, but I do have JM Heal's copy of Suspense 12, also purchased in 1967. It is inevitably a cents cover. Any copies of this issue which reached these shores must have been few and far between, and unlikely to have been part of any official distribution, as it as not until I attended Phil Seuling's July Comic Convention 1n 1974 that I was able to fill the late 1960 gaps.

One thing I have not yet noticed within these hallowed pages is that early in the run of UK distributed Atlas titles, Journey Into Mystery lagged a month behind Astonish, Suspense and Strange Tales.

The first one I bought was JIM # 68, cover dated May 1961, and I purchased along with it, in my local newsagents, Astonish # 20, Suspense # 18 and Strange Tales # 85, all dated June 1961.

This pattern continued until at least the end of 1961, with the JIM cover date always a month behind.

So it is possible that JIM # 58 was shipped along with the June 1960 issues, having literally missed the boat which carried Astonish # 9 and Suspense # 9., both of which were distributed in the UK, but only in cents versions.

I paid no heed to westerns at the time, but it is possible that Gunsmoke Western was also printed too late to go with the May issues, and was shipped along with those of June.

Anyone else buying in 1960 and 1961 notice the anomaly with JIM?