rjrjr

1 hour ago, TheSSurfer said:

Does anyone think these variants will be worth something as JIM 83, or other key apps? Or is this just the current market that makes them so expensive? Basically would it be good to rely on variants as investments?

You cannot really compare them to classic keys.  Classic keys have a demand that spans a large number of collectors.  Relatively rare variants have a much smaller base of collectors, but who are just as passionate.  I believe a relatively rare book about a relevant character by a relevant artist will always have some value.  Now, whether the value remains high or fluctuates over time, nobody can really say.  But as long as Spider-Man, Batman, etc. are still around, these comics will have some demand.  The only time you need to worry is when the character fades into obscurity.  As for whether or not Dell'Otto's superstar status fades, no doubt it will eventually.  But, to what extend it fades is important.  Neal Adam is not the superstar he once was, but his books have remained in demand after all these years.

To simply dismiss these modern variants of Marvel and DC books as nothing more than a current trend would be a mistake.  As long as Marvel and DC continue to publish titles featuring these characters, someone somewhere will want to own these books, regardless of the price.  It is books featuring characters that are no longer printed that I would be more concerned with the value of.  Who is going to want to pay big bucks for a book featuring an obscure character, regardless of rarity?  The book will need much more than rarity going for it in that case.

I thought the cover looked familiar:

2 hours ago, Nino_013 said:

Im actually very, VERY surprised this is going to be the actual cover. Looks like Marvel didnt want to shell out the $$$ for him to paint one so they just lined up to get one of his con sketches.

Nothing about the cover screams Dell'Otto.  That cover could have been done by half a dozen other artists.  I'm sure Marvel doesn't care though, since apparently the name is going to be enough to sell this, even if this is one of the more lukewarm submissions by what is otherwise a gifted artist.

Do we know for a fact that is the final artwork?

Invincible comics are a bad investment at this point IMHO.  Comic characters that have longevity, continue to be published, and are relevant today are the ones that collectors want.  Comic history is littered with once hot books that, once they are out of the collector conscious, stagnate in price and decline over time.  I have no doubt there will be those Kirkman fans who will continue to cherish Invincible and that will help maintain value for the short term.  But what happens in 5 years, 10 years, or longer when collectors have move onto the new hot writer or artist?  Look at past examples like Chew, one of the hottest books on these boards for a long while, or Y The Last Man.  Once those books ceased being published, they started becoming irrelevant, and prices stagnated.  No doubt there are eBay listing from people wanting top dollar for those books, but is the demand there to support those asking prices?  I'm sure some who collected those titles still buy to fill the holes in their collection, but there is no incentive for a new collector to want to buy.  I also have no doubt there are those who are buying these books when they dip in prices hoping a movie will jump start interest in the title, but only so many comic book movies can be made and a vast majority of these titles will never make it into another medium like television or movies.  To me, this is catching a falling knife.  Sure, you might get lucky and not get cut.  But a majority of the time, the outcome is not going to be pretty.

This is the problem with many of the indy books.  Marvel will make sure their stable of characters stay relevant.  So will DC.  But Indy books do not operate that way.  And what happens when the Indy book does actually get made into a movie?  Remember 300?  How about Surrogates?  Or a dozen more comic movies like them?  How are those comics doing these days?

It doesn't matter how few copies of a comic were published if nobody wants the book.

3 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I could do the same thing watching free NFL,NBA live-streams or streaming last weeks Hollywood blockbuster's movies from China. Just don't want to do it because most of those sites have malware.

I rather just pay my measly $4.99 a month to Comixology which is owned by Amazon so I don't have to deal with future stress with computer viruses.

You are not downloading anything on these websites.  You are viewing the comics for free on your browser.  No dangerous than surfing any other website.

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I think that might be the model for a lot of comic readers now and not just under 25. Kind of like most people don`t buy dvds or blu-rays now when they got Netflix,You-Tube,Amazon Prime or Hulu.

I can't remember the last time I bought a DVD and I use to own over 2000. DVDs were a big part of my collecting life between 2000-2006.so when things change they change. lol.

Why would someone spend money on one of these services?  I'm not kidding when I say every new comic is available for free on the Internet using a standard browser.  Go to Google and type "comics online free" and you'll see what I'm talking about!

We had a discussion not too long ago where people had no qualms about ripping off eBay.  In fact, they were encouraging others to do just that.  I'm sure nobody has a problem with this right?

20 hours ago, 1Cool said:

Why?  Was it evident that the series was limited in nature?  That Batman #1 was a key books for awhile and I know people were paying $200 for even raw copies.  It had all the markings of a long term hit for everything I was seeing up until they relaunched (again).

Which makes those people paying that money fools IMHO.  Does anyone really think Marvel (or DC) won't reboot a title.

Look at the ridiculous money being spent on comics of characters that have no hope of retaining a title long term?  Squirrel Girl?  Ms America?  All flash in in the pan characters who nobody is going to care about in a few years.  Unless of course, Marvel put them in a movie for a few minutes.

"Look, look!  I have a comics version of a character in a movie.  Yes, the character looks nothing like the paper version and yes, the character acts nothing like the paper version, but still!"

22 hours ago, nWo_22 said:

Variants are like beer prices at the ballparks, if you people keep buying them (just look at eBay) comic publishers will keep making them.

It's the comic communties fault that variants exist.  I don't even listen to variant covers complaints from anyone anymore.

Marvel Comics seems though is on the verge of bringing back all the characters from what I gathering from that article that started this thread that we love and hold dear because the only color that means anything in our capitalistic country is GREEN!  The market has spoken and Marvel Comics has failed in recent years so they have no choice but to bring this whole thing back to formula.

It was a pathetic attempt from the house of stupidity to think a male dominated marketplace would want to see a female versions of their beloved characters in a laughable attempt again to bring new readership in the mix. Gee you mean it didn't work how shocking.  

There is obviously nothing wrong with bringing diversity into the mix, however not in this forced manner.  If someone or a group wants a comic book character that represents them then thats is awesome and I don't think anyone would be opposed to that obviously. However be creative and create a new character that is representative of that diverse change instead of being lazy and having no talent what so ever.

They will bring the characters back with new #1s, tons of variants, and in an event.  Exactly what everyone has been clamoring for. 

Marvel will see the sales and continue to do more of the same.  Rinse and repeat.

On 4/3/2017 at 1:54 PM, Lazyboy said:

So it's somehow better for a retailer to pay $1000 for only one variant than to pay $1000 for the same variant plus 500 regular books? I don't get it.

It would be better if the publisher looked at their offering as the incentive for retailers to  buy the comic, rather than some additional limited edition manufactured collectible.   IMHO the publishers have put too much work into these incentive covers and not enough into making their product desirable.  If Dell Otto is such a hot cover artist, how about putting his art on the standard cover and doing away with the umpteen variants?  For that matter, put all these hot variant cover artists on standard comics and put out the best product possible.

On 4/4/2016 at 3:33 PM, Jeffreykli said:

IIRC, Obi-Wan and Han Solo are on the cover of Star Wars #1, even though they don't appear in the story until #2.

LOL.  Someone beat me to it.

On 4/4/2016 at 3:17 PM, Meeklo said:

Any character have their first appearance on a cover but not actually in the book itself?

Star Wars #1 shows all the principal Star Wars characters on the cover, but some of them don't show up until subsequent issues.  Han Solo, Chewbacca, and Obi-Wan Kenobi don't appear inside the story until after issue #1.

42 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this but:

The number of NEW characters at Marvel Comics is always going to be minuscule. If, as a writer or artist, you create a character for Marvel, you don't own it. So you don't reap the benefits that could come along, should it be made into a movie. 

You save that idea for your self published or creator owned published comic. 

So no one wants to create NEW characters for Marvel. Get it?

So the majority of the time, 'new' characters in the Marvel Universe are re-hashes of the old. 

This isn't something NEW, nor is the use of non-white replacements - Captain Marvel was a Black female in 1989, SHE-Hulk came along in 1980, Spider-GIRL, Spider-WOMAN, Bishop, Storm, etc., geez Black Panther came along in 1966.

That was an attempt to be DIVERSE. We're Stan and Jack SJW's?

Marvel's current diversity has nothing to do with 'Social Justice' or whatever code words you political dorks want to mask with - it has to do with an ageing audience of collectors who aren't buying the product anyway. Marvel's trying to sell to everyone they can, because their superhero comics have been declining for years. 

Take away the Star Wars sales of 2015, before this current 'diversity' really began and the decline was there. 

BEFORE that the decline was there.

It's been in decline for 20 years. Really, it hasn't been a 'House of Ideas' since Jack Kirby left.

It's had it's moments... a run here, a run there, but even some of those runs were simply rehashing of old stories told in a slightly different way - the Green Goblin is now the deceased (who'll later be resurrected of course) father's son's psychologist! Yawn. 

Yeah...for those wanting 'new ideas' who continue to read and support Marvel or who only recently quit, I have news for you - you're sending mixed messages to the publisher.  

Marvel has been regurgitating the same stories for 50+ years, and you've kept buying it. The SAME stories. 

Turn Thor into a frog and shake things up - people complain - it still sells x copies - bring back regular Thor - get a sales spike - rinse and repeat. 

Except NOW, if you have a woman holding the hammer, it must be because they're a 'progressive', or whatever political masked curse word they use... when in reality it's simply Marvel running out of ideas to regurgitate, and trying to sell into as many foreign markets as possible, so they can sell more movie tickets - because YOU aren't as loyal as you used to be. 

A whole legion of fans aren't as loyal as they used to be. The numbers have dwindled for decades now. That spike in the 90's was an illusion. It wasn't satisfied readers. 

So blame the decline on 'diversity' if you want, it's an easy target. But really, you're missing the big picture. Marvel has been on the decline for 20+ years. 

 

Chuck, I agree with all of what you wrote here.  Only a vocal few are complaining about diversity.

I still believe the big problem is Marvel has conditioned their readers to not collect comics anymore.  (They killed off any loyalty their fans use to have.)  There are a ton of comic collectors who collect nothing but key comics or hot variant covers, etc. but very, very few are invested anymore into collecting a title or a character.  It makes sense why this happened, Marvel kept renumbering titles (making it easy for collectors to jump off a title) and introducing umpteen variants, making it impossible to actually collect a title unless you are wealthy.  They've brought this on themselves.  If you like reading comics and collecting them and Marvel has made it impossible to collect a title, what do you do?

Those who have been disenfranchised from collecting them but still like to read them have instead turned to reading them on the internet.  And, there are about half a dozen websites where you can read the new comics on Wednesday for free without having to deal with Marvel's shenanigan or pay them a dime.  They don't require any special software, just a browser.  So, you can read comics for free, not bother with buying the mass of variants Marvel is publishing, and spend the money you save on new issues to buy keys if you are spending money at all.  It is not a coincidence that several popular, free websites have popped up (no doubt in foreign countries, otherwise they would have been shutdown by now) that have the comics posted the same day they go on sale at stores and at the same time Marvel's sales are declining.  And we are seeing a spike in the value of keys.  IMHO, all these events are interrelated.

I still feel this is going to end badly for comic publishers.  I think DC has realized this and have stopped with the bazillion variants.  They are less likely to reboot titles.  It feels like they are trying to recapture the loyalty they once had with fans.  I'm not sure Marvel has learned any lessons from the interviews I've been reading.  

And it will be interesting to see how those website are dealt with.  Disney and Warner Bros. have to know about these sites, yet they continue to grow and publish more and more comics over time.  I remember the few websites that tried this a few years ago were shut down pretty quickly.  These new sites have figured a way around this.

7 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Why did Marvel replace Joe Q with Axel Alonso? It seems like Marvel was way better under Joe Q than Alonso.

Joe Quesada was promoted.

On 4/8/2017 at 7:59 AM, ComicConnoisseur said:

If you are a parent though what are you going to do spend $8.00 cover price for 1 DC and 1 Marvel Comic for your kid to read or spend $4.99 a month for Comixology Unlimited where your kid can read unlimited Archie Comic books a month or $9.99 a month for Marvel Unlimited to read unlimited amounts of Amazing Spider-Man on their iPADS and tablets? The kids who grew up with Netflix,Spotify and You-Tube are going to want something similar. I am the same way now. Hard to spend about $16.00 cover price for 4 comics, when I know for that $16.00 bucks it gets me unlimited comics to read on Marvel Unlimited and Comixology Unlimited.

The game really has changed,and will continue to change. If I was Marvel and DC I would look to social media to expand my audience. Facebook,Twitter,Pinterest,Instagram and YouTube.  If I was Marvel I would actually try to put comics on these sites for free. That would broaden their audience tremendously.  

Yes,I wish we could all go back to the spinner racks,but those days are sadly gone. The genie is out of the bottle now with digital unlimited comic subscriptions.

 

 

Marvel and DC comics are available for free on several websites.  That is probably a huge part of the problem.

On 4/7/2017 at 4:39 PM, NP_Gresham said:

The distribution Marvel and all the publishers use now, greatly limits exposure and this ensures a shrinking fan base. It will eventually come home to roost in movie revenue if they don't expand their fan base.

It similar to boxing vs the NFL. In it's hey day boxing had greater fan interest than the NFL. But the NFL made the decision to keep its product available to all audiences, while boxing tried to squeeze every dollar from every fight by going closed circuit and small venue instead of large capacity stadiums they also cut off free events like the "Friday Night fights".

The exposure the publishers got from all the mom and pop stores having spinner racks fed an ever growing audience. They should put spinner racks in Walmarts and such and increase the audience.

This wasn't the comic publishers decision to not sell comics in those places, it was the stores themselves that made the decision to quit carrying comics.  And since nothing has changed about comics to make them reconsider ...

On 4/4/2017 at 8:47 PM, brer247 said:

Disney owns Marvel. Disney owns Star Wars. So they do have 6 books in the top 25. 

I concur.  Star Wars was licensed by Dark Horse.  Marvel isn't licensing Star Wars.

19 hours ago, Bird said:

I don't see this as a retailer doing their best. The retailer can buy it by ordering the comics, can pass, or can hedge their bets and try to sell it without knowing if they can obtain it. A retailer doing their best would choose one of the first two options, depending on their store and judgment. Hedging their bets is hardly doing their best; it may be the best method of profit but it is the worst method of customer service; you do not mislead me as your customer or I go elsewhere. A retailer who is honest with me about the chances of me obtaining that variant gets my business, not one who knowingly misleads me.

I can tell you've never run a comic shop.  Not many retailers are going to buy a bunch of books they don't need unless the price they are selling that variant at will cover the cost and also provide a profit.  They at least gave the OP a chance at a copy, which is more than Marvel is doing for collectors.

5 hours ago, ygogolak said:

Are we ignoring that all ages of comics are selling for more than they ever have?

Yes.  I was addressing the hot potato comment in the modern section of the forums.  I wasn't talking about all ages.

2 hours ago, FoggyNelson said:

is it like playing hot potato?

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately for most comic people, no.  I know guys that buy "hot" comics, put them in a box, and sit on them forever.  It does remind me a lot of those sports cards collectors who wonder why those cards they've been sitting on since the late 80s/early 90s are worthless now.  One day, these comic collectors are going to wake up and realize they've been doing this all wrong.  Buy what you like, don't buy what someone else likes!  At least then, there is some semblance of value in your collection.

25 minutes ago, Califelix said:

I think they're starting to see this now...

http://www.newsarama.com/33843-late-16-sales-downturn-told-marvel-people-didn-t-want-any-more-diversity.html

So, what is their excuse for why Star Wars comic sales are down?  I'm being serious here as I've been tracking those sales on my website since the beginning.  Even new Star Wars #1s are nowhere near what they were at the beginning of 2016.  (It would be unfair to compare sales to early 2015.)  Yes, they are some of Marvel's best selling titles, but that isn't saying much these days.  Replacing Darth Vader (a consistent top Marvel title for a long while, even at the end) with Doctor Aphra, which is down at Poe Dameron numbers already has to be a clue that you messed up.

How about Marvel quit the gimmicks, umpteen variant covers, replacement heroes, events, constant re-numbering, and get back to telling good stories.  They have conditioned their buyers to not collect runs or invest in the longevity of titles and now they are wondering why sales are down?  Keep appealing to speculators and watch the bottom fall out more...

1 hour ago, Bird said:

Once when buying some art from Tim Townsend, it was 5 or so Bachalo pages, I was pleased to find a few extra pages in there. I think there may have been one page and a double page spread. So I emailed Tim and said thanks for the extra pages and if you don't know what I am talking about then I got some extra art by mistake. I was saddened to hear it was not a bonus but indeed an error.

The 1:1000 / 1:500 thing is a bit fishy but likely just erroneous. But I would think twice about such a situation when placing future orders...if it was on the level then why did they sell a book the were not sure they could obtain. So best case your orders are more wishes/suggestions to protect the retailer from overbuying.

Unfortunately, that is the position that Marvel is putting retailers in with these ridiculous ratio'd variants.  I know of no retailer that does not want to sell the comics, but what can they do if they are unable to qualify for the books?  They do the best they can by listing the variant for sale and hope they can get enough pre-orders to achieve the required ratio number to fill orders.  They refund the money if they are unable to fulfill.

I'm guessing the price was not 500 x $3.99 = $1995.00.  Unless you are willing to fork over that kind of money, getting these high ratio'd variants via pre-order is a gamble on just about any online retailer's site.  DCBService is about as big a retailer as  you can get and they charge quite a bit for these variants and they have problems filling orders.

I think the misinformation from the retailer is unfortunate, but they did refund  your money.  And I completely understand your frustration.  I've been there more than once trying to pre-order a comic I really wanted, only to find out the publisher had a ridiculous condition that needed to be met by the retailer to get it.

Ire should be directed at the publishers for pumping out these variants based on orders or orders of other comics, not the retailers who are doing the best they can.  Here's an idea, how about letting the retailer order the covers they can sell instead of artificially limiting some of these covers?  There are not many retailers left bumping up orders to meet the demand of these things anymore.  Again, Marvel conditioned them to quit bumping their orders, so what does Marvel expect?

39 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

my understanding is the only way a dealer will get that 1:500 variant is if they order that many copies of the regular book. So they have to order 500 copies of the regular book to get the 1:500 variant.

If they didn't get a total of 500 orders of the regular edition of the book from customers + what they order for the store they won't get the 1:500 variant and therefore can not sell it to you. Seems completely legit to me and that is why you were refunded.

Exactly!

1 hour ago, isiTrue said:

Opinions about an order cancellation

I placed a pre-order at nycollectorcave.com for a 1:500 variant of "All-New Wolverine #19 Mattina Venomized B&W variant" for a very good price.  Order was accepted.  A few weeks later, I received a refund from Paypal with a note from them included, stating "Unfortunately this has been turned into a 1/1000 variant for the next issue of wolverine and we will not be receiving it. Sorry for the inconvenience."   

I checked online and couldn't find any reference to it being a 1:1000 variant.  Odd, I thought.  Did they cancel my order because they just realized that they could get more for the book?  

So, I contacted them about it being turned into a 1:1000 variant and asked for a link to the info.

Their response:  "It's actually a 1/500 variant not 1/1000. I've attached a picture showing you that it's 1/500 from my order form."

What?  Obviously something doesn't add up, but I responded with:  "Then I'm confused.  So my order was cancelled by mistake?"

Their response: "Yes, your order was canceled because we won't be able to get this book in.  The refund was sent.  Sorry."

 

Looks fishy to me.  I mean, if you made a pricing error, just be upfront about it and tell me.  Don't make up BS while insulting my intelligence.

What do you guys think?

Sounds like they didn't get enough orders to cover the copy you wanted.  This happens all the time at DCBService, another online comic book retailer.  These retailers cannot produce these books out of thin air and the only way this will stop frustrating collectors such as your self is if Marvel quits offering these ridiculous ratio'd variants.  I'm sure these retailers don't like this anymore than you do.

As for the response, my guess is the employee sending the email didn't know.

18 hours ago, Dwitkin82 said:

 

This book has a Fleischer cartoon vibe to it.  Nice!