Poekaymon

Good tip. I considered it, but it turns out 10s are pretty rare and expensive. I’ll just stick to 9.8s that meet my exacting standards—there are plenty of those.

1. What I meant by twisting the hypothetical is that you are arguing a scenario which I didn't even present in this thread. And you're focusing on the dollar value, when you clearly meet the 2nd condition I listed. 2. You say a 9.8 is a 9.8, and then you give a precise example of an outlier situation which disproves that. 3. To recap: 1) you have a disclaimer 2) you have Quantity X on most of your auctions 3) you list 9.8s separately if they are outlier 9.8s. In short, none of what I've been talking about applies to you, my man. Keep on truckin'.

If I may speak for this other fellow, you are twisting the hypothetical. The situation which led me to start this thread, and to which he was agreeing is as follows: 1. Books that are over $500. IE, not books where the CGC grade and auction shipping is half or more of the price, as in your example. I agree that probably no one cares in that case. (Although even then I really think it'd be nice if sellers posted the actual pic or made it clear the pic wasn't representative, but hey, I'm not going to go crazy over bargain basement books.) 2. An auction that is not "Quantity 5," or a preorder, or an obvious stock photo, or which has an obvious disclaimer telling you that the actual item is not pictured. I wouldn't have even made this thread if any of those conditions were met. 3. Rather, a listing for a single, non-preorder book which advertises a CGC certification number, and even has an extra pic "zooming in" on that CGC certification number. If you meet all those conditions and have five copies to sell, yes, it would be nice if seller's posted the actual item they intend to ship.

That's fine. This guy doesn't even have a disclaimer, which started this whole thing. I would never have known except that he posted one that I have sitting right here.

A few different concepts going on here that I find interesting. 1. There is no consensus about what a baseline 9.8 is. Because 9.8 doesn't mean flawless, and because the process is subjective, it is in some cases hard to tell what defect CGC noticed and allowed in their 9.8 and what was introduced later in shipping. I have seen numerous threads over the years (researching this issue) where veterans of these boards, such as yourself, disagree about whether a blunted corner, for example, was there when CGC graded it a 9.8 or not. So you can't just say "a 9.8 is a 9.8 unless it was damaged in shipping" unless you have a pre-shipping photograph with which to compare it, which only supports my point that you should probably give them the picture of the actual item. 2. Even assuming that there was no shipping damage, I strenuously disagree that all 9.8s are the same. For me, the fact that it was graded a 9.8 is valuable and a great starting point--but it's only the starting point. (I very well understand that this is not how you feel, as you have explained. Maybe I'm even taking the minority view here.) But allow me to explain my position: 9.8s aren't perfect, as we all know very well. Accordingly, there are variations in the imperfections that various 9.8s have. I spend considerable time and effort finding copies that are not only 9.8s but which have the imperfections I don't mind and don't have the imperfections I do mind. You may find that silly and that I should simply "buy the grade," but this is not a business for me, and the next time they get traded will probably when my kids are cannibalizing my estate. So if something has a production error that bothers me, but which did not prevent it from getting that grade, such as a messed up corner or production-related color issue or scratch or mark, I still don't want that book. Sorry if that's unreasonable, but that's how I choose to collect, and I'd be highly surprised if I were the only one. If someone like Sideshow makes it clear that the photograph doesn't represent the exact item I'm receiving, or if a comic seller such as yourself discloses that the image is a stock image, then it's on me to decide whether I want to risk getting something that doesn't meet my personal standards. That's fair. Let's do an actual example. I spent 4-5 months to get an SM Platinum 9.8 because there is such a wide variation in 9.8 quality on that book, due to production choices I've heard, that half or more of them look quite bad, and I have no interest in them whatsoever, even at a discount, notwithstanding the fact I agree that they are 9.8s! In fact, I'm still looking for another one because even after passing on 20 or so 9.8s I've seen in the last 5 months, the one I settled on recently still bothers me. ( Even still there are like 5 or more on Ebay right now and they are all even worse!) With that in mind, say I spend another 6 months (or a year or five years) looking and someone finally posts a 9.8 that I feel is actually an improvement. It has a CGC number which checks out. Obviously I'm willing to pay a premium. I buy it, but what comes is a different book, with a different number, and it is worse than both the one I already have and the one that was advertised. If you, or that seller, or anyone else here says 'suck it up, it's still a 9.8,' then I'm sorry but we're going to have a problem. I'm not an expert in eBay, but assuming the CGC #s didn't match and I could point out some visual differences, I am confident I would win a dispute.

With Sideshow and Target or whatever, you're talking about stores that have hundreds or thousands of copies of the same item, which item does not gain or lose value for nearly imperceptible flaws. And no one expects to get the exact item that had the picture taken--in fact, Sideshow puts right on the pic that it's a prototype, and you don't know the sideshow serial number ahead of time, either. And many of the big stores will put in a single sentence in that says something like 'Actual product not pictured' or the like. Not remotely a fair analogy, in my opinion. I can maybe understand in the comic book realm, if you are doing serious volume, and you are willing to issue refunds when your method of not giving them they thought they were buying backfires. I also don't really care if they are under a hundred bucks or so. But as I said earlier in this thread, before like 2 pages of nonsense: 1. This seller is not high volume. I've looked a few times and he never has more than 40-50 up at once. 2. These books are in the $500-1k range 3. There aren't many of these particular books even out there, so I would be extremely surprised if he has more than 2-3 of each. Now let's look at "mycomicshop." At the time of this post, they have 581,390 books up. And yet, I just looked at a couple of their identical books, and they still managed to get unique scans for each. I really don't think this is a high bar. Look, call it laziness or efficiency or whatever, if you need to use a stock photo or want to reuse photos from your past auctions, and you don't think it matters, fine. But at least disclose that fact to your customers. Not hard to put in a single sentence to avoid any confusion. Not sure how this is a controversial proposition.

If a 9.8 is more like 25% of these variant shop raws, then I would expect 9.8s to be 4x the price plus $30 or whatever for CGC's services. But that definitely isn't the case. So I'm not sure what the disconnect is. Anyway, I just preordered some cheap raws from Mr. Campbell. Will send them in and see how we do.

I definitely read it. I may not have understood it correctly, but then I did say that was a possibility to begin with. Even still, given your clarification, I'm not sure where I went wrong since you are describing the same situation I understood. You bought an 8.5 and received a 9.0 and asked what I would do in that situation. Didn't I address exactly that? You may have to write as if you are addressing a 5 year old--this ain't the newbie forum for nothin'.

If I’m understanding you correctly (which is by no means a given as the memes and banter are largely going over my head), you are asking if I would still have concerns if a seller posted pictures and serial number of a book, I bought it, and then they sent me a totally different book but which was in a slab with a higher number on it. First consideration is whether the 9 is actually an upgrade over the 8.5. Ie, if I bought a 9.6 that looked like a 9.8 from the pictures, and then I received the 9.8 I mentioned earlier in this thread (which although in a 9.8 slab would assuredly not be graded at 9.8 or even 9.6 if regraded), then yes I would ask for a return. That’s an easy one. But I assume this is not what you are asking, and for the purposes of my being in this hypothetical situation, the book that I received is actually an upgrade. So the question is really whether I would complain if I bought a book and was given a different book that was actually a superior book. Well, I would alert them. I still think it’s a better practice to actually post the item that you are selling or at least disclose that the actual item isn’t pictured. So in your hypothetical, I would say “you realize you sent me a 9.0 right?” Just as I do when the cashier gives me too much change. If they already know (as in what happened to you) or don’t care, then that’s that. Probably an unsurprising answer. I would have thought it obvious that I was only concerned about getting a worse book. Similarly, I also wouldn’t demand a return if I bought a Hulk 171 and they sent me a nice copy of a Hulk 181, though I’d still point it out to the seller.

Well now you are assuming reputable. I did start out saying "seemingly reputable." Anyway, I wasn't calling the cops on him. I specifically said that I was still considering bidding on it. My only point was it is cause for concern and if nothing else, may make someone wonder. Probably better to just post an actual pic or say that you're using a stock photo, imo.

Advertising an undamaged copy, that has been assigned a specific identifying number, and which you do not own, and then sending a different book which has been previously damaged.

That wasn't what I was saying at all. Receiving a 9.8 which was damaged in transit is not fraud--I agree.

It is because it is not the item being offered. If there was no picture or CGC number posted, like with a preorder or something that was clearly a stock photo, then that would be different. Then you're getting exactly what was offered--a 9.8 Thor 337 with no defining characteristics. But if the auction has detailed photographs, of a book that exists, out in the world, with a specific CGC number and the specific variations that exist across 9.8s of the same book, and you buy it based on that picture, then you should be getting what is pictured. I have a 9.8 right here that got severely shaken and the cover is practically falling off. Staples almost out. Like half an inch of first page showing under the cover. I have hundreds of 9.8s and this is by far the worst--uglier than most 9.6s. Absolutely no one would be happy receiving this book, but it's in a 9.8 slab. If I made an auction using a photo of someone else's 9.8 copy of the same book, that was visually flawless, and then sent the winner my damaged book, there is not one person on this board that would be happy receiving it.

The problem is there are plenty of 9.8s floating around that are 9.8s in name only due to shipping issues or whatever. And even when two books are legitimate 9.8 there are variations. If simply saying 9.8/white was enough, no one would ever need to post a pic—they could just type the CGC number and call it a day. Pretty sure that wouldn’t fly when combined with a no return policy. Only reason I am considering it here is that it seems to be a reputable shop, though they really don’t post enough books each week to justify the laziness imo.

Preorders or common books would be one thing, but the ones I am talking about are in the $5-700 range and don't have hundreds of 9.8s in existence. I think "laziness" is a bit too gentle of an explanation (even if accurate) for what is actually fraud. Anyway, I'm debating putting in a bid on the one I missed last time which I'm guessing will arrive as a similar 9.8 with a different number. But as I am of the opinion that not all 9.8s are equal, if I bought one that in any way negatively deviated from the pic, then I'd be putting in a claim. Not sure if worth it.

What do you guys make of this? So a seemingly reputable store had a lot of reasonably limited 9.8 graded stuff up (like 20-100 "graded at" on the census). I bid on and/or bought several items. He did deliver. Later I did a search for one of the ones I didn't win and noticed it was back up. Looked pretty familiar, so I compared it to the one I bid on, and lost, and sure enough it's the same picture and CGC number. Then I searched and found several other relisted items that he had put back up--identical CGC numbers. Now I guess you could think well maybe the buyer backed out or something, but: one of the items he has relisted is sitting right here in my hand--same CGC number. I guess the least sinister explanation is that he actually has multiples of each item and just did a bunch of relists and it automatically used the same pictures? I don't sell on Ebay so I have no idea how that works. But even if that's true, the ones that are up right now for bid are not the actual ones that the people will be getting when they win. That's an issue, isn't it? Not sure what board policy is but I'm pretty curious about what is going on here. Can message out some links if anyone is interested.

True though I think at better than 50% it’s a winning gamble. Thanks for your input.

Not to be cute, but I figured that was the case. Technically "can get" could mean a chance anywhere from 1% up. Let me try a different way. If you bought 10 of his raws, how many would you personally expect to come back 9.8?

TLDR: if you ordered two copies of any raw direct from Campbell's shop, would you expect at least one of them to come back 9.8? So I recently had a long thread on here where I swore off high ratio variants that come out of the gate at hundreds of dollars. But I'm still enticed by "cheap" artist variants. I've never ordered a raw though. So I'm hoping someone who actually orders raws directly can fill me in. Take, for example, JSC. I don't collect signatures, and like to stick to blue label 9.8s. I've been tempted to get some of his variants directly in raw, unsigned form, but they give zero indication of condition, and in fact have a disclaimer, so I have no idea how many I'd need to get to land on a 9.8. If it takes more than 2, I think it is basically always going to be better to just get a graded one later. And yet, his unsigned virgin stuff sells out very quickly, limited to two copies per order, so I guess they must be pretty high quality.

Digging that spike in 1990. Damn you Spider-Man 1.

Yeah, been trying to track some of the 2010-2015 variants since around the time I posted this thread, and it certainly seems to be strongly negative over time, except for some outliers. In response to the "just get the covers you like" comment, I think that's valid, but it's probably mostly valid for raws or 9.8s in the $100 range. (ie, even if it goes to the price of a slab, well, you can still look at it and fondle it or whatever at a low loss.) But some of these variants come out of the gate at $3-500 raw and $500-$1k 9.8 and I have to believe that's pure speculation range. Some recent examples include Hunt for Wolverine 1:1000, Incoming 1:500, Venomverse 1 1:1000. I like all of these covers and artists and characters, but at their price points I really don't think you can just "buy it if you like the cover/artist." At least for a person of average income, you probably need some confidence that they will hold value.

I was alluding to this idea in another thread. I’m really curious about whether or not we get any new blood in this game. Otherwise who’s going to want this stuff when us old farts start dying. Going to be some estate sale bargains.

TLDR: Talk me out of Incoming #1 (1:500) or high ratio variants in general. As someone who just, a few months ago, returned to the hobby after a thirty-year absence, the most striking thing to me about the industry today is variants. High ratio variants, commission covers (and/or signed/remarked) on artist storefronts, numerous comic store branded variants... it's actually staggering. I'm glad my poor, OCD teenage self didn't have to deal with this. Add in slabs, which is all I personally have been buying the last few months (CGC 9.8 or die), and it's basically an entirely different hobby. Not saying it's better or worse--I'm enjoying it--but it's certainly different. I mostly started getting silvers/coppers out of nostalgia. Wolverine was my favorite in the 1980s, so Hulk 181 is an obvious choice, as are his various first issues, and just other random stuff like Hulk 340. These are mostly ones I enjoyed as a kid, but I wasn't super careful about condition, and I read them many times each, so now I am willing to pay a premium for 9.8 copies to improve upon what I once had and have since lost. I'm also willing to speculate a bit on 1st appearances of other characters which I either wasn't crazy about before or which came out later, hence my pickups of Wolverine Origins 10, Batman Adventures 12, and ASM 194. So in general I guess I'm going for 1) pure nostalgia, 2) first appearances, and 3) 9.8 condition where most of the copies are much lower. Now how do modern variants fit in with this? Should they even be a thing? To start, I put them in 3 categories of declining appeal: 1. Variant first appearances. These seem pretty defensible under any standard. For example, Wolverine Origins 10 (third claw) and Spider Verse 2 (Land). I think I can get behind either of these because firsts are always firsts, and if either character blows up, the variant versions should be the better ones to get. Agree? (Disclosure: I have the Origins 10 and plan to get the Spider-Verse Land.) 2. Ultra famous variants Now, I'm a little more unsure about these. For example, Spider-man 678 (venom), Wolverine (Deadpool outfit), X-23 (Dell'otto), X-force 20 (Venom). (Just picked up the X-23 and was bidding on the X-Force but tapped out when it got close to 1k. 678 is just too dear in 9.8, but it's on my long-term watch list.) Beyond scarcity, these seem primarily driven by the covers, which seems like a serious problem going forward, but at least they come up when anyone googles "top variants" or w/e. Whether that is still the case in, say, 2050 is another matter. 678 may actually be the "best" Venomized cover they ever do, so I guess I can get on board with it, but I really don't know about the others. 3. Everything else - including the vast majority of high ratio stuff I bought a bunch of these, and now I have some buyer's remorse. These covers are usually cool, so I guess I can hang them on the wall, but in terms of any sort of speculation value, what is going to make people want them in 10, 25, 50 years? Just the fact that it was 1:500 or 1:1000 when it came out? If the cover is going to drive the desirability, it's going to have to be the best cover that is ever made for that character (see ultra famous variants above). Otherwise, what's the point? Because there will be more in the future that are as good or better with as high or higher ratios. As just a few of hundreds and hundreds of examples: ASM 700 (1:200), ASM 800 (1:200/1:500), X-Men 510 (sketch), Venom 6 (1:1000), Return of Wolverine #2 (1:1000), Daredevil 600 (1:500)... hundreds more. These are all cool covers, and I can see why people are excited when they come out (and I've fallen prey to that myself), but why is someone in twenty years going to want that 2015 1:500 instead of the 2025 or 2035 variants to come? Taking ASM 700 (the 1:200 Ditko) as a recent example: I see that at one point it went for $2k or more and had a recent sale, at the time of the article, of $1,170 in 10/17 (https://www.sellmycomicbooks.com/variant-comics4.html). Back in like October 2019, when I first came back to the hobby, I made an ebay offer of $900 on a $1099 BIN for a 9.8. The offer was refused with no counter. Since then I have seen several go for around $700, including on this board. From over $2k to $700 in 7 years is worse than buying a house in 2006. And I consider this a pretty good issue, all things considered. Makes me wonder. So how do you guys feel? Do you agree that the variant first appearances or some of the really famous ones might be worthwhile, but the majority of 1:200/1:500 stuff isn't? I was about to buy this Incoming #1 1:500 when I thought of making this post. I guess I want you to talk me out of it.

Thanks, everyone. I picked up the HCs for House of X, The Vision, Annihilation, Planetary, and vol 1 of Immortal Hulk. Also got Preacher vol 1 though I don't think anyone here recommended it. If none of these work out, I'll just go back to collecting slabbed covers.

Long, rambling post warning. Also may be rehashing things you forum frequenters have seen a million times. Fair warning, feel free to move on now. TLDR: what are the best current titles, if there even are any? Like most people here, I'm guessing, I was a collector back in the day. For me, "back in the day" means from about 1980 to the early 90s. (Guess that makes me an, uh, copper ager?) But I also liked a lot of the 60s-70s stuff, especially Kirby, which at the time wasn't that old. I was a latchkey kid starting grade 2 and right around then I'd go to my LCS every day after school and rummage around. Usually didn't even have any money but it didn't matter--I just liked the smell. When I did have money I would grab the tattered 60s-70s Fantastic Fours and Silver Surfers. I also followed some of the current titles at that time, mostly Daredevil, Spider-Man, X-Men, Wolverine... Some limited runs were good too, like Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen and Infinity Gauntlet. Somewhere in the early 90s I fell out of love with the industry. I think McFarlane's Spider-Man was the beginning of the end for me. He was my favorite artist by far, and when the variant cover Spider-Man 1 popped up in, what, 1990-1991, I bought multiple copies of all of them, like most dummies. Then he started doing Spawn and I didn't care for it. And the "gimmick" stuff started to be more and more frequent. The follow up(s) to Infinity Gauntlet were pretty awful, imo, and there started being trading cards and stuff in comics and the different covers, yadda, yadda, and by like 1993-94, I was just done with the industry as a whole. I sold everything to buy my first car and moved on and I never looked back--until about a month ago. Now in the last 25 years since I looked at comic books, "slabs" seem to have taken over, at least in trading. So I started by getting my favorite single issues from the 1970s and 1980s purely for nostalgia as CGC 9.8s exclusively. Mostly the titles I mentioned above. And most of these were because I remembered them fondly and not because of the covers although some of them have pretty good covers too (Hulk 340 and Daredevil 182, I'm looking at you.). Then I started getting some first appearances of my favorites that I had before and regrettably got rid of. And then I discovered variants. Now, I did remember this from the early 90s, but man, it is just a whole new level now. Retailer variants. Artist variants. High ratios. It's actually staggering. So I went down a bit of a dark path with the high ratio variants. Picked up a bunch of 1:500s simply based on the covers. J. Scott Campbell seems to be the Todd McFarlane of this generation. I'm sure wiser people than me can dispute that analogy, but that's just how it seems to me. (Who is the new Liefeld, so I can steer clear? Or maybe it's still actually Liefeld.) I have a bunch now and I couldn't begin to tell you in any of them what the story is about or how the inside art is . Well, that's partially because they are slabbed, but also because I just don't care enough to even buy a reader copy--unlike with all my old favorites, it just wasn't the reason for the purchase. I consider this pretty troubling as a 1970s-1980s collector. So I thought to myself, well let's actually start buying some to read again. Recapture the magic. So I grabbed a few raws and had a look. Turns out they are pretty bad. Quite bad. Bad art, bad dialog. Just bad. Now here's where I'm going with all of this. There's a guy on this forum who never misses a chance to poop on current titles. I've only been here a few weeks and I don't read that many posts and I've already seen him do it 3 times. You probably know who I am talking about. Anyway, at first I figured he was a negative nancy, but after cracking some of my variants, my Campbell-cover Black Cats and Spider-Man's and whatnot, I'm beginning to worry he's right. Is it just that there were only a few good writers and they are done now? Or have I just changed and my favorite "old" stuff is every bit as bad as the new stuff? I guess what I really want to know is: are there any current titles that are any good? It seems even Frank Miller couldn't keep it going as I picked up his two DK follow-ups to DKR, and they were both pretty bad. Or is it just that my attention span sucks now thanks to the internet? So: What are the best titles now, if any, for someone who grew up on stuff like Miller's Daredevil and Claremont's X-Men/Wolverine? Have there been any limited runs in the last 25 years that come close to Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns? Really not trying to start an argument--I actually want to be convinced that there is still worth in the industry. Thanks in advance.