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Sure, that's fair (to say if Stan dialogued the Eternals..). But "bulk if not all", do you mean on the Eternals? Because Kirby did everything on that book, no one was plotting for him.

No no, that wasn't directed at you just like- it simply made me think like, yeah, we're going into deep waters and some people don't have the frame of reference, you know? But that reference is there if people want to pursue it and I think they should if they're going to continue to the discussion and infer people lack credibility, that's all. Kav, we're all learning together my man!

I swear I don't mean this in some snobbish way (and it's not directed at you Kav, but in general)- really! I just don't know how else to convey it, but- some of us have known all about this for years, and that's part of what I'm trying to convey: it's evident to me that some people who argue passionately just haven't done the research and/or are blatantly unaware about things that they should know about before they start arguing. There's an issue of Alter Ego devoted to Maneely and has an interview with his daughter that goes into how his death affected the family and how her mother struggled with three young children. I believe she said elsewhere- and I think this says a lot about the GOOD aspect of Stan- that Stan sent Maneely's widow money for a year after Joe's untimely death. But yeah- you've got to really go into the history of things and not just rely on common hearsay from message boards. Marie Severin also stated that her brother John and Bill Everett had been on Joe to go drinking a lot and that *also* contributed to it. And some people say Joe's workload- which was exhaustive- contributed to him having dizzy spells in the weeks before his death. You've got to read and absorb everything and compare and contrast, if you're gonna stand up for the things you say.

Also, whatever one wants to say about Jack Kirby- he likely was not a stupid man in the early eighties and was told by his legal team to dictate his exact notes, for the legal record, they were recorded and then Kirby signed them. To go to court. To a judge. And they line up with everything else he said. Note that he does credit Stan for the "balloon dialogue" and does not say that he did the dialogue. When I arrived at Marvel in 1959, it was closing shop that very afternoon, according to what was related to me by “Stan Lee.” The comic book dept. was another victim of the Dr. Wertham negative cycle + definitely was following in the wake of EC Comics, “The Gaines Publishing House.” In order to keep working I suggested to Stan Lee that to initiate a new line of “Super Heroes” he submit my ideas to Martin Goodman the Publisher of Marvel. To insure sales I also did the writing which I was not credited for as “Stan Lee” wrote the credits for all of the books which I did not contest because of his relationship with the publisher “Martin Goodman.” Although I was not allowed to write the “Balloon” dialogue, the stories, the characters + the additional planning for the scripts progress was strictly due to my own foresight + literary workmanship. There were no scripts. I created the characters + wrote the stories in my own home + merely brought them into the office each month.

No harm done, I didn't remember the exact dates either. I just know a lot of the old timers interviewed in Alter Ego had cited it as being at the beginning of 1950. I didn't say it happened right after, I speculated that was the reference Kirby brought up of Stan being distraught. Michael J Vassallo pinpointed this, and I referenced it. The No comics being put out in October 1961 (also not pinpointed by me), was evidence of Kirby saying Goodman was about to stop publishing comics. Again, the EVIDENCE SUPPORTS THIS in a way that it is illogical to brush off, unless you're trying hard to rationalize something. But is it total proof? Of course not. But it's very strong evidence in support of something Kirby said several times. I take the guy who literally killed Nazis on the battlefield at his word over the guy who laughingly bragged about his military service as writing stateside and dating girls on the weekend and getting away with it. Anyway, this is not what "I say", but what I repeat; the research of a very respected comics historian who has written exhaustedly for Marvel and done significant amounts of research for comics. Go tell Dr. Vassallo he lacks credibility, please. But here, since you've clearly never read any of this stuff and quite possibly only watched the "True Believer" pro-Stan documentary, I will provide the research for you: Michael Vassallo: 16 Jack’s recollection of seeing Stan crying shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. When I constructed a timeline of job numbers, I was shocked to find that Joe Maneely’s last story and Jack’s first story in Strange Worlds #1 (“I Discovered the Secret of the Flying Saucers!”) were only a few digits apart. I immediately asked Ayers to check his work records on an equally close western he did and his work records corroborated that all these stories were commissioned within one or two days of Joe Maneely’s death on June 8th 1958! Immediately it made possible sense to me that if Jack had in fact arrived looking for work on the following Monday, June 10th he would have found Stan Lee in his office inconsolable, and predicting the soon demise of Goodman’s already tenuous line of 8 titles a month. Whatever anyone may want to say about Stan, he was very close to Maneely, had worked with him since late 1949, and depended on him to launch many/most of the Atlas character features in the western, war comics throughout the 1950’s. He was the fastest artist he had (Jack Kirby fast, possibly faster, by all accounts) and after the implosion he was drawing most of the covers and handling the Two-Gun Kid feature. There just wasn’t enough new material to keep him busy so he was also simultaneously at DC and also Charlton. But even more importantly for Stan, he was a partner on their Mrs. Lyons’ Cubs newspaper syndicated feature, both hoping to catch lightning in a bottle and leave the dregs of the comic book industry. So taking all of that together, the timing and the relationship, it is “very” likely Jack did find Stan, not necessarily bawling his eyes out, but very upset that morning when he went in looking for work.

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or Prince Namor. Again, everything I've said is credible unless the sources themselves were wrong. So, if Stan's actions and comments and lack of creating were somehow falsified... if every single interview I've read and interaction I've had was somehow a hallucination... I've met and interacted with Stan several times and he was beyond charming and charismatic and enjoyable. I referenced Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott and he said "you and I are the only two people on the Western Hemisphere who know who the Hell they are!" and I cherish that memory. I've got a 1940s' portrait of Stan that he not only signed to me, but drew a word balloon around. I hung out with him and Gil Champion briefly and he cracked me up. None of this is some mission to discredit Stan Lee. Stan just got unfair credit and it's easily proven, except that fans holding on to their happy memories of Stan narrating Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends make them illogically react and take things personally when nothing personal is intended whatsoever.

I'm sure it says they were 50-50 partners legally. Creatively, it was not the case. Credibility? I don't want to argue but you can't resist this tone. Hey Shadroch- maybe you're right. It just means that all of the Timely and Atlas era artists, editors and writers whose interviews are helpfully documented in Alter Ego Magazine were wrong about Marvel moving out of the Empire State Building at the end of the forties/beginning of the fifties. Because, again- I do not say things because I have a sentimental and nostalgic need to preserve these thoughts. I'm simply reaffirming documented statements and evidence. Again, you could be right! And every interview with someone who worked at Timely/Atlas- welp, to be fair, they WERE old guys at the time of interview. But hey, since you want to challenge, let's look at "as best I can tell". If it's your research skills we're gonna base this Credibility? on- well, I knew what I was saying was simply repeating what others said in a magazine devoted to that era and edited by Roy Thomas, an expert on that era. But I know that means little to you, so I did a cursory search. And I kid you not- it took me less than three minutes to turn up this, which confirms Marvel left the Empire State Building in 1951: http://alphabettenthletter.blogspot.com/2016/02/comics-timely-comics-moved-to-empire.html#:~:text=In 1942%2C it moved to,where it remained until 1951. Again, Peter Sanderson may be incorrect when he wrote in his officially authorized book about Marvel's history that they left in 1951. I'm not even being sarcastic. I just doubt that he is.

This week I just had fun with picking up a bunch of non-key VF Bronze Age Comics, just for the sheer enjoyment of it. Unless there's a big Rima the Jungle Girl epic on Netflix, I just picked up things for reading enjoyment and the covers. Also got a lot of crisp 70s' reprint comics, which I have always weirdly enjoyed a lot.

Will she marry me? Does she still own them? Answer the second question first.

Oh man!! Silverwolf Comics were prolific. Yeah I got a lot of 80s' Black & White boom books though I didn't know that was a thing at the time I was getting them

Yeah. I was a child in the 1980s' and I visited many regional comic book stores along the East Coast and there were quarter boxes, 50 cent boxes, and then 3 for a dollar boxes. I just wanted any comic I could read and, off the top of my head, I remember getting old Defenders from the late seventies from the 50 cent boxes and then stuff like an 80s' B&W Airman reprint, Ditko's Static, things I'd never have been exposed to otherwise. As this was when my Grandparents had a specific house, this would have been like 1987. I loved it. You'll still sometimes see 50 cent boxes at cons but it's more dollar boxes. No complaints.

No, you're correct- there are cases of this happening I just mean- it's never going to be a decent copy of Action #1 or Marvel Comics #1 or something.

I really think that it's far fetched that there's still some "survivors" out there just waiting to be found. I mean, I'd love to be proven wrong but you've got to consider that the disintegration of pulp paper from 1938 (especially in the "in an attic somewhere" trope) would be extremely severe if it's not encased in glass or a polybag. Also, is the implication that people alive then who are rapidly declining now somehow have copies of Action #1 and are unaware or oblivious to it's value? People lose Christmas Cards from two years ago, ain't no one holding on to an Action #1 that's gonna somehow turn up.

I feel like I need to stress this again: I don't cite this research because I wanted to believe this stuff. I believe this stuff because they researched it and convinced me. I feel this has to be explained because- again- people are acting like Stan is being attacked/demonized. It's not attacking someone to investigate and point out overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Michael Vassallo: Does Stan, on his wife’s advice, finally do comic book stories "like he wants to"? (Having done a thousand Millie the Model, My Friend Irma, My Girl Pearl, Rusty, Lana, Tessie, Mitzi, Little Lenny, Little Lizzie, Nellie, Kathy, Ginch, Imp, Mrs. Lyons’ Cubs, Willie Lumpkin, et al stories, a smattering of recent westerns, and not a single superhero since 1942). Does Stan (and Goodman), after constant pushing by Kirby, relent and see what he proposes? (Having already done the most visually exciting superheroes hits of the golden-age, co-invented the romance comics genre, produced some of the most respected genre comics of the genre age, Sky Masters, Challengers of the Unknown for DC, The Fly at Archie, bug powers via an “extract” for Harvey, two different previous Thors, untold powerful monsters, and a score of “ancient gods walking among men” stories).Stan Lee (1922-2018) – The Timely Years, Timely-Atlas-Comics blog post Mark Mayerson, Marvel Method, 27 December 2019: The other thing about Lee’s outside projects is that they were all humorous. He wasn’t writing adventure or drama. He obviously felt that his strongest potential for outside sales was comedy. Yet, he’s celebrated for “creating” heroes and adventures when it was obviously not his strength.Kirby, on the other hand, had done very little humor in his career. His work was all about heroes and adventure. Yet, somehow, Lee is the “creator” of the Marvel universe and Kirby was only the artist who drew up Lee’s ideas.The truth is so obvious for anyone who bothers to look.

Michael J. Vassallo: …this exact period is the most critical moment in Marvel’s 80 year history. Atlas implosion in April of 1957, inventory runs out, declining sales (assumed), and on June 7, 1958 Joe Maneely dies. It was the company’s nadir and I’m sure Goodman had had enough. There was enough profit in his men’s sweat magazines (a genre he actually pioneered, rather than copied). So what happens next is the lynchpin to what came afterward. Immediately (and I mean days) new sci-fi titles were launched. What corresponds with that launch? Jack Kirby returns. Do you actually think Stan suggested new sci-fi titles? He had never written any! Do you actually think Martin Goodman suggested new sci-fi titles? Goodman hated science fiction. It never sold for him. Not in the pulps, not in the comic books. The sales pitch had to come from Jack and the decision to green-light it was made immediately, based on job numbers. The original sales pitch may even have been for super heroes, and Goodman resisted, but at the very least it was science fantasy and Goodman relented. So the line chugs on for another 2 years as sci-fi becomes monster stories, westerns, romance and some new war stories appear and humor continues unabated (which were probably the best sellers). Then the second critical juncture occurs and with declining sales Kirby probably shows up with his blitzkrieg proposal for new superhero titles and Goodman finally relents The first series was a super-powered version of what he already did, the Challengers of the Unknown. THAT is the most likely scenario of how Marvel re-launched. No wife telling Stan to do comics “his” way, no golf game, no spider-on-the-wall, no Chondu the magician, no… Patrick Ford: Michael, There is some evidence that Kirby’s pitch was for super heroes. In several different interviews (as early as 1969) he said he was pushing for the super hero. He said in 1969 that he “kept harping on” trying superheroes while doing the monster stories. Later he told Will Eisner he had to “fight for the super hero” titles. I think he came in pushing the idea and Goodman didn’t want to go with it due to the poor reaction to the Timely hero revival. Kirby was also doing science fiction and monster stories at the time for Crestwood, National and Harvey and my guess is he also pushed for those with Goodman jumping on the “giant monster” genre which was popular at the time in film and comic books. Michael J. Vassallo: Back to what I said above, there are 2 lines of history now. There’s the “official” history nearly 100% based on what Stan has told starting in the 1970’s. Then there’s Jack’s history, told in numerous interviews. Of the 2, only Jack’s is backed by a deep look at the actual books, the actual history of the time period, and the back history of both. Jack’s story can be backed with data and evidence. Stan’s cannot. Stan’s back history tells us nothing. His recollection of the critical junctures are negligible. His forward story is made up and cannot be corroborated. Jack’s back story is really all you need to see which history is correct. His interviews just corroborate what he was saying.

"Kirby misspoke on occasion, by accident. Lee’s falsification of history was deliberate and pervasive." - Michael Hill

Joe Simon was an equal partner. Uh... right. Marvel was not in the Empire State Building in 1961. Marvel put out no books whatsoever in October 1961, which lends to Kirby's claims. Michael J Vassallo did the research and was able to pinpoint that Kirby first saw Stan again right after Joe Manleey died, lending credence to him seeing Stan distraught and understandably emotional. Vassallo has the research to back all of this up. Stan "may have" played with facts and forgotten things but "Kirby was much worse".. uh, wow. Right. You have lost any credibility with this specific statement. Kirby may have had memory issues- Stan outright lied. Which is worse?

Let's also take into context that Atlas was a very small component of Martin Goodman's much larger Magazine Management. Many fans have (understandably) assumed that Atlas/Marvel was just a comics publishing company struggling to hold on in the fifties. No- it was a tiny (by comparison) part of a bigger publisher who put out everything from crossword puzzle magazines to romance digests to men's magazines and so forth. The comics division was an afterthought. The reason Atlas hung on in the fifties- this is confirmed, not speculative- is simply because Goodman could allow it to, since he made the majority of his profits from everything else he published, not the comics. Not until the late sixties at least.

was getting S E A T E D. I was not posting any affiliate link and it won't let me edit this out so I don't know how to fix it.

I did a play at The Actor's Studio with Thomas G Waites as the star (from The Warriors and The Thing, etc.) and I look out at the audience getting seated and Mike Carbo (whom I didn't know prior) was getting outside-affiliatelinksnotallowed I'm like, hey that's that comic guy and Waites goes, "Everybody knows that mad man!" (in a complimentary way) and it just always struck me. When I saw Carbo at the East Coast Con in NJ the following year I went up and talked to him and he remembered me from the play and was super cool and we talked about QUEEN and bands from the seventies. I liked him very much.

My sympathy for the owner. However, can I ask why a storage unit isn't safe to store a collection? Clearly this storage unit wasn't but... I would think with 24/7 security cameras and a locked gate that you can only enter with a code... it'd be kinda difficult, no?

Kav, you just had to steal my thunder didn't you Don't you worry. Get a Mort Weisinger thread going and I'll win a prize from DC... you'll see *sobs*

holy s#*t, I don't know what to say! This is the happiest day all week (so far). Thanks Amigo!

Dear Stan, My marriage is falling apart. Please, I implore you- help! Signed, Desperate in Downtown~ "Hey there, True Believer! Awww, who says this isn't the age of real frantic fidelity problems in the Marvel Age of marriage?? Hey, it beats being hitched to Irving Forbush! Just know your barnstormin' bullpen is on the case! If ya really wanna save that marriage Herbie, you'll buy a copy of the latest and greatest nutty mag from the mixed up and harried House of Ideas: Stan puts more captions on still photos!! Only married members of the mighty marvel marching movers can show the extent of their dutiful devotion by picking up this latest and greatest and bestest and boldest perverted periodical! And you think you've got problems! I think I should get an oscar for the cameo! Item! Didja' know there's a Welcome Back, Kotter comic?! Neither did I! Look for my upcoming book 'Grand Nephews of Origins' wherever Marvel is sold, pilgrim! 'Nuff Said! Excelsior!"