Malacoda

I think Goodman reckoned he was going to be able to publish AF 16 but overestimated the goodwill. There's a sort of myth/perception that Goodman had his own distribution company in the 50's (Atlas), he closed it and threw in with ANC who promptly went out of business, compelling Goodman to do his deal with devil (IND) and Marvel (as they became) were then restricted to 8 titles per month throughout the 60's, until Goodman sold Marvel to Perfect Film, Ackermann bought Curtis and effectively gave Marvel its own distribution company, the days of 8 titles were over and the Marvel explosion of titles happened from there. In reality, the number of titles was only restricted to 8 from Nov 57 to Oct 1960 and then it they slowly managed to creep it up. I suspect this was the result of either Goodman or more likely Frohlich talking common sense with Liebowitz (or whoever actually played that fateful game of golf with Goodman) but it had to be managed with some subtlety as Harry Donenfeld was still at the wheel of DC/IND and not a man to let rational business sense interfere with a good personal feud. The number of titles does creep slowly up through the 60's, the so called Marvel explosion isn't really an explosion of titles, it's the frequency of publication that was the step change, and this change actually happens while Marvel are still with IND (the number of titles then creeps up with Curtis, but the real explosion in titles is in 1972 when the average monthly number goes from 23 to 30 per month). So across the 60’s they did manage to get at least one more title added per year. Having got away with adding FF & Hulk as bi-monthlies, Goodman now wanted to go monthly with the FF from issue 6 and I reckon he thought he was going to get away with upping the tally again, and get IND to distribute 13 titles in September 62, but it wasn’t to be and something had to get the chop. As AF had been a failing title and the sales for Spidey in #15 hadn’t yet come in, it was a no-brainer which title was getting the chop and which one was going monthly.

They may well have rented space or a floor in someone else's warehouse, so it might well be somewhere you actually were aware of it, just not as T&P. It's also difficult to tell over time if they moved properties or occupied multiple addresses. They seem to have had a strong presence in Liverpool, which makes sense if the comics arrived at the Liverpool docks, but then we know all the processing took place in Oadby & Thurmaston, so maybe Liverpool was just big because it was the 6th or 7th largest town/city in the UK. Or maybe I've just found more references to Liverpool than other places.

This and the ones like it are brilliant posts. All the endless poring over the paperwork yields some marvellous results, but these kind of recollections cannot be reproduced, deduced, inferred or reasoned into existence. These memories are gold. Do you still have any of the re-stamped ones, Kevin? Sunday market on the Quayside (circa 1978). There are comics down there, I can sense it.

As I now live there I like to think of it as the centre of the empire. As an aside a mate of mine says Marvels and DCs were abundant in Plymouth when he started collecting in the mid 60s. Yes! Yes! Yes! I love these Kunte Kinte moments when someone's personal recollection exactly chimes with a recently discovered fact. I would absolutely expect Plymouth to be a happy hunting ground for SA comics. 2 years ago when I started digging, Steve's friend Neil said his Dad always found Marvel & DC plentiful in Middlesbrough, which he ascribed to it being a port. At the time, I told him it was more likely because T&P had a large warehouse in Doncaster, but since then I've discovered they had warehouses in most major cities, so there was probably one in Newcastle that I haven't found yet, or possibly even Middlesbrough itself (or maybe just a sales rep who was focussed on Middlesbrough). By the way, I hope no offence was taken at describing Plymouth as an outpost. Just to be clear, I wasn't being a typical London d-head , I was referring to T&P's very strong concentration in the midlands. Obviously, they started in Leicester, but when you find they had warehouses in South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire & Lancashire as well as Derbyshire, Nottingham, Birmingham & Liverpool, it makes them sound very strong in the north, but actually Doncaster is about 30 miles south of Leeds, Cleckheaton about 10 miles and Widnes is south of Liverpool, so they're all kind of...well...south of the North? (I'm going to get lynched here, aren't I?). I mean, if you accept that the Northumbria is the North and Mercia is the Midlands..... actually I think I'll get out while I'm ahead.....

And, weirdly, AF 14 is substantially more valuable than 2 - 13?

Indeed. And I suspect those 14k postings which have had a million views are incredibly repetitious. The interesting thing to me about AF 15 (apart from the fact that the Spidey origin story is only 11 pages long which makes the cost per page even more eye-watering) is that Stan always (always!) tells the story that AF was due to be cancelled and 15 was always scheduled to be the last issue and no one cared what was going to be in it, that he put Spidey in there as a one shot to get him out of his system and it was only after the sales figures came in that they ever envisioned it being a series. But in AF 15 itself, there's a fan page where they publish their future intentions for the title, including that (1) Spider Man will now be appearing every issue, and (2) possibly, depending on future fan response, in two stories per issue (3) the contents page will be discontinued in response to fan feedback (4) the word 'Adult' will be dropped from the title of future issues in response to feedback from teenage readers (5) there is an apology for not printing letters in that issue, but an assurance that the letters page will be back next month (6) a blurb to say don't say miss next month's issue and (7) an invitation to send your letters to the editor for publication in future issues of Amazing Fantasy. I feel like the cancellation was more of a surprise than Stan remembers it being.

So Steve was bemoaning missing 3000 last week and now we're at 3100. At this rate, we'll hit 4000 before the year is out.

I have a theory for you. Check out the dates. You bought these in 1973. So despite being years old, they are all in a really tight window of time (Nov 69 to Mar 70 cover dates) Cap 122 (Feb 1970) Cap 123 (March 1970) Thor 172 ( Jan 1970) Thor 173 (Feb 1970) Avengers 73 (Feb 1970) Sgt Fury 73 (Dec 1969) Iron Man 21 (Jan 1970) Iron Man 22 (Feb 1970) X men 64 (Jan 1970) Silver Surfer 10 (Nov 1969) Then we jump to Surfer 12 (Jan 1970) DD 60 (Jan 1970) Then SS 13 (Feb 1970) FF96 (March 1970) So moving forward as you say, but again inside the same window. T&P operated from a series of depots and I believe the furthest one West was in Plymouth, which was an outpost of the Empire. T&P reps filled up their own vans from the depots and went round their own patches. By 1973, you are firmly in the period when Marvel was being distributed by World, not T&P, however it's impossible that a load of Marvels from 69/70 could have been in the hands of World. They MUST have been from a box of old Marvel comics sitting in a T&P warehouse. Now, if you're a T&P rep and you know there's a load of old Marvels from 1969/70 sitting in the warehouse in Plymouth and you know Marvel sell better than DC, or one of your retailers has asked you to keep an eye out, or if we want to be more cynical about it, you figure 'well, it's a gift shop in Pentewan, doesn't matter what I give them, I can unload that box of old leftovers that's been in the warehouse since we lost Marvel, no need to give them the up to date stuff', however it goes down, you've got a box of stuff to unload and somewhere to unload it. That does explain why they all come from the same time period, where they were for 3 years, why things were (happily) a bit different in Cornwall and why they also got replenished seemingly from the same Tardis. I also suspect that this moment in time (70/71) was a moment when a lot of marooned comics which might formerly have been returned did not get returned. You would imagine that T&P would have honoured the SOR even after they lost Marvel as a client......but did they? By the way, I'm sure you've noticed, but several of those comics you mention are on my Most Wanted list. Any chance you still have those particular copies of Iron Man 21 & 22 and X men 64? I think we've spoken about that copy of Surfer 10 before. Many thanks, Gary.

Wow. Seriously, that is an astounding collection in every way. The research, the hunting, the dedication, the knowledge....the sheer bloody stamina. And all this time, you've walked among us! To think, I live in mortal fear of the day my gf works out what my collection is actually worth (you know, in real things, like holidays and shoes). This is next level. Strange Tales #1 - 12. Dude.

On the subject of seaside specials, this collector (whose memory seems pretty precise), describes finding Cap 123 (from March 1970) still on sale....or recirculated....in 1973 in a gift shop in Cornwall. The rest of this is interesting if you're into the memorabilia (I particularly like the Hulk poncho and utility belt which clearly show a detailed knowledge of the character) but if not, I recommend skipping to the end and having a little drool over his collection.

I think you're right. It is massively inconsistent both in the 60's and 70's but in completely different ways. Seemingly, T&P had a far more boots-on-the-ground approach, with FTE reps driving a fleet of vans full of comics, mags, books etc, tending the spinner racks themselves, picking up the returns, and actually seeming to be more involved in the logistics and management than the newsagents were a lot of the time. I have yet to figure out how they covered Wales and Scotland. Probably ...very badly. World was a completely different kettle of fish. They took orders from local and national wholesalers directly and dispatched accordingly, but, if I understand correctly, although they dealt with the three major national distributors (WH Smiths, John Menzies and Surridge Dawson) they got their orders in from the local branches, local wholesalers of those companies, not a centralised office, and the amount of comics, mags etc each one ordered was entirely up to them. There was no input from a rep pushing this or that. So the coverage/distribution was driven by demand, not supply. If you had a very on-the-ball, watching-the-sales figures wholesaler in one area, you might have a completely different experience of collecting Marvel comics to the next town where the wholesaler was entirely focussed on newspapers and porn. This might very well partly explain that phenomenon you mention that we associate with Alan Class - the memories people have of comics being more available in seaside towns. Literally, the local wholesalers (and more likely the local town wholesalers as there were a ton of those dealing directly with World as well) just knew there was a horde of kids coming and ordered accordingly. It potentially also explains why there were bugger all Marvel returns. Each branch ordered what was selling in their neck of the woods and if something wasn't then they course-corrected on a monthly basis. By the way, a job as a sales rep at T&P included personal use of a company van, which was a 15 CWT Ford van, like this. Does that mean you can use it for anything? (Asking for a friend).

'Shrink wrapped' was the term used to describe it, but I agree, far more likely they were put in a plastic bag and sealed at the top and this was the only bit of it subjected to such treatment. I also imagine actual shrink wrapping was relatively expensive in the 70's for distressed inventory that they were trying to get rid of as cheaply as possibly. I also suspect that they were mostly distributed around Manchester and surrounding environs (where World were based) but this may be flawed logic (if you're sending newspapers and magazines to London every day, does it add measurable cost to stick some Lucky Bags on the van?).

Aha! This is exactly the idea, except that whereas the American ones were done to penetrate new markets - they were sold in 7-11's and gas stations - with a non-price sensitive approach i.e. the idea was harassed parents on long drives delightedly finding something that would keep the kids quiet for an hour (much like the re-circulated comics pushed out to UK seaside towns and caravan parks), the UK Marvel Lucky Bags were purely trying to punt out distressed inventory at a reduced price (the object being for World to see the back of them).

So in the 70's, World distributed to newsagents (via local & national wholesalers) on a SOR basis. Obviously, their comics were non-returnable to Marvel (and it would have been financial insanity to send them back across the Atlantic), but the newsagents could send back what returns there were to World and World would bundle them up in bags of 6 or so, shrink wrap them (relatively new technology for newsprint) and re-sell them to newsagents on a non-returnable basis. They did this under several names, but the main one (or certainly most remembered) is Marvel Lucky Bags. I am pretty sure the reason I never saw one is because newsagents used to tear them open, reprice them with stickers and put them back on the shelves. In the inflation-ravaged 70’s, this was obviously too good to be true – you could buy bags of comics for pennies and then re-price them to 10x what you paid for them. And, of course, you had little Herberts like me, delightedly finding comics from a year or more ago and excitedly asking ‘hey Mister, got any more like this?’. I have previously shared with the group my copy of Astonishing Tales #34 (cd March 1976) bought from a spinner rack more than a year later, repriced to the then current UK price of 12p. It’s demonstrably more than a year later because comics only went up to 12p in March 1977. But for an even better example, here’s Thor 233 (cd March 1975) cunningly repriced with a mere +50% uplift at least 2 years after it’s original sell by date. The only person I know who consistently refers to Marvel Lucky Bags is Steve Walker (Steve Does Comics), both on pinterest and he has a regular feature on his blog called ‘the Marvel Lucky Bag’. I did write and ask him what his memories of Lucky Bags were but didn’t get an answer (or maybe I lost which thread it was on), so if anyone is on good terms with Steve, I’d love to know. He probably has a photo of one. https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/61783826126104690/ https://stevedoescomics.blogspot.com/2022/08/the-marvel-lucky-bag-august-1982.html

I think you'd have to know what the initial quantities imported were. I suspect they imported a lot more Superman / Batman titles than Blackhawk etc. Key question indeed. I suspect a big chunk of the original imports were the US print overrun / warehouse returns rather than copies that had been in retail circulation, but based on the seeming UK distribution dates (i.e. the stamps) it definitely looks like there were a load of late returns (which may have made it to the newsstands or may have been just late warehouse returns). Certainly if me and my 10d pocket money were choosing between a battered been-out-in-a-New York-winter US newsstand return and a crisp-looks-like-new warehouse return that had never been out of the box, I'd pick the crisp one and send the battered one back to Ethel to get Double Doubled. Raising the question, was that merely UK newsagent wear and tear or did some of them get sent out less than perfect to start with? Does anyone know: do those discount stamps we've seen carry on into the decimal or late 60's period? Certainly nothing contradicts this 1) We know Marvel were selling bespoke (therefore defined quantity) PV's to T&P not a bottomless barrel of returns. 2) It's rational to assume that those print runs were based on sales in some fashion. 3) We know Marvel in the US had sell through of anything up to 85%, so very few returns and they were more 'glamorous' and sought after here 4) We remember riding round on our bikes to multiple newsagents, far and wide, trying to find our favourite Marvel comics 5) We know that when World Distributors took over, they had (and therefore needed?) virtually no mechanism for dealing with returns. Such returns as they got they bundled back up in 'Marvel Lucky Bags' and resold to newsagents cheaply as non-returnable. I never actually even saw a Lucky Bag, so I can't avoid the feeling that there relatively few of them around.

You have to wonder how many times some of these went round. A shilling wasn't officially equated to 5p until the Decimalisation Currency Act of May 1969. 5p stickers start appearing from late 1969 / early 1970. Yet here's Action Comics #343 from November 1966

Also to Marvel, he wrote a famous stinker of a letter in FF#9 ...and then served himself a big helping of humble pie in FF #17.

Also...

We can't spare you for three weeks, so....as if by magic (Robot), we're back in the shop..... Hats (...capes, boots, cloaks of levitation...) off to Gary.

That rare instance of an artist being put to his best use. Colan's beautiful fluidity really suited DD and helped mask some of the preposterous elements (how did he swing from building to building with a single billy club?). His moody, misty, Gothic pencils were also perfect on Drac and both his pencil style and page layouts were perfect on Doc Strange. The thing that always amazed me was that Colan was a massive stickler for detail. Given his flowing, indulgent, colouring-outside-the-lines style, you wouldn't think so, but he used to meticulously research locations and history to get all the details right.

Good catch Gary. I saw this one pop up too. Did you see also see this one? Like buses - they have a tremendous herd instinct. I suspect, given the colour of the stamp and the comic, that I've actually missed a few of these.

Thanks Eric. I fully agree and I'm probably the worst culprit for bringing everything back to facts and figures, so I really appreciate what you're saying. Without the shared love of comics, we'd be just a bunch of oldsters banging on about inkstamps and indicias. Here's to the joy.

Once again, your oft stated credo is substantiated: the fastest way to make something appear is to firmly predict it never will. And, by the way, this has the split old/new money stamp which is the appropriate stamp for that month, and that month only, so it's not one that came in later. How great is that cover? I love Adkins inking on Kane. This just leaves Mar-Vell 13 which is rather interesting to me. About 40 years ago, my friend Nick's Dad was going to New York on business, so Nick gave him a list of all his gap issues - not the FF1 type stuff, but normal priced comics that had been gaps in his collection for many years. His Dad obviously never checked the list and just handed it over to a comic shop guy who must have thought it was Christmas. Nick's Dad came back with the entire list. We sat down and immediately began devouring comics in the sort of companionable silence that I imagine would last about 12 seconds with Millennials. We were there all day until eventually his mum chased us out into the garden to get some exercise and fresh air. What I remember most keenly, because it was on the top of the pile, because I read it first and because I had never seen it before, was Captain Marvel 13. You have to bear in mind that we'd been collecting for about 7 or 8 years by this point, and we were lucky enough to spend our pocket money in the London comic shops (Dark They Were, Comic Showcase, Forbidden Planet, Eternal, LTS etc) and at the London comic marts. So to have never seen a copy of this took some doing. Is it a coincidence that 40 years later, it's the last issue we can't find a stamp for?

You haven't forgotten. The actual window, the 7th phase of Marvel T&P after the 3rd hiatus goes from April 1969 to July 1971, but we have examples of stamps for every title in April 1969 and May - July 1971, so the ones on the Lost List above are May 69 to April 71. Most of the ones missing in the core titles are in the first year. If we could find Hulk 137 & 138, ASM 94, DD 69, Captain Marvel 21 and Surfer 15,16,17, we'd actually have the last 16 months sewn up for the MU. I suspect Captain Marvel 21 may not have stamps (shorter print run due to cancellation) and I wouldn't be surprised if the Surfers never reached our shores either. The other 4 I'm sure are out there, but in what quantities we will never know.

My pleasure. So this is Marvel comics between May 1969 and April 1971 cover dates. There are, we believe PV's and cover stamped cents issues for all of these. The PV's are easy to find, but some of the cover stamps have yet to present themselves. These are the ones that get the top prizes: Hulk 116, 137, 138. ASM 76, 79, 94 Avengers 65, 70, 72 X men 56, 58, 64 (also, 62 - you found that stickered one that looks like a cs, but I wouldn't kick you out of bed if you found a better one). DD 54, 58, 59, 62, 69 IM 15, 21, 22 Captain Marvel 13, 21 Subby 17, 20, 23 Surfer 15, 16, 17 Chamber of Darkness 6,7,8 Monsters on the Prowl 9 Where Monsters Dwell 3,4,5,6,7 Amazing Adventures 3 Astonishing Tales 2,3,4 The following are the ones that Gary ticked off so I ticked them off as well, but I am a bit of a completist (you will be surprised to hear) so would love to have scans of these too: Thor 167 Hulk 125 IM 18 If anyone can post a scan of any of these, my little cup of joy would overflow.