Malacoda

Must read article: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Photos-of-S-F-s-first-comic-book-store-16945786.php Amazing how many months he has on (what I take to be) the current rack at the same time: Conan 12 (Dec 71), Am Adv 10 (Jan 71), ASM 105, MTA 1 & Xmen 74 (Feb 72), MGC 34 (Mar 72) TOD 1 (Apr 72).

Fascinating. I never think about UK reprints of DC. Marvel so totally eclipsed them for this. Ah, and good old 30th Century Comics. Still can't believe I will never walk through those doors again.

Yup. Same thing goes for the UK. I look at (and bid on) US auctions pretty much every week, only to drop out because the GSP cost is ludicrously high AND KEEPS GOING UP. How does that work? You start bidding on a lot where the cost to ship it is $20 and the next day the exact same comics in the exact same box making the exact same journey cost +$100 in shipping.

Something else that is odd about the Treasuries is in the indicas (that woke Marwood up, if nothing else). I did some work unpicking Martin Goodman’s labyrinth of shell companies ( …..and that is really in the ‘don’t try this at home’ list). Now, obviously these things were created to be a smokescreen so Goodman could flip costs and profits around, keeping ahead of both his commitments to his creatives and the taxman, so you wouldn’t expect to get very far with it. The strange thing is the labyrinth of shell companies goes right the way up to and beyond the sale to Perfect Film, leaving Perfect to unpick it all. So where your favourite Marvel titles were, of course, published by Marvel, in fact none of them were. Marvel was just a brand name. Different titles flip between companies, as you’d expect, but generally whichever company (on paper) produced that title, it remains its owner. So, for example, where FF were all published by Canam Publisher’s Sales Corp, when they are reprinted in Marvel’s Greatest Comics, the indica reads ‘reprints courtesy of Canam Publisher’s Sales Corp, copyright XXXX and then whatever year it was originally published. Weirdly, the reprints in the Treasuries don’t do this. They sometimes credit other Goodman shell companies. So, for instance, where FF 49 is printed by Canam Publisher’s Sales Corp in 1965, it says so. Then when it’s reprinted in MGC 36, in 1972, it’s re-copyrighted to Magazine Management in 1972, but lists the reprint as being courtesy of Canam Publisher’s Sales Corp, copyright 1965. All good. However, when it’s reprinted in Treasury #2, it’s listed as ‘reprints courtesy of Non-Pareil Publications, copyright 1964, 1966, 1967’. Non-Pareil is one of 17 (and counting) shell companies, which did publish ASM, Marvel Tales & Two Gun Kid at different times, but never published FF. The Avengers Treasury 7 reprinted The Avengers #52, 57, 60, and 83. Avengers was published by Vista Publications from 1963 to 1968, so it’s Vista for cover dates May 1968 (#52) & Oct 1968 (#57). Then Perfect take over and, in a two stage process, moves everything under Magazine Management. #60 was published by Magazine Management in Jan 1969 and #83 by Magazine Management in December 1970. The indica in the Treasury, says reprints courtesy of Vista Publications 1968, 1969 and 1970, and Magazine Management in 1970. so the years are correct, but Vista Publications ceased in November 1968, so why does it say 1969 and 1970? and Magazine Management should also say 1969 which is when no #60 was published and copyrighted. The Thor Treasury 3 says reprints are courtesy of Non Pareil as well, but Thor was published by Atlas Magazines Inc. (as was JIM). You get the idea. In short, where the silver age Marvels were reprinted in comics, the indicas are correct, in both the original data and the updated copyrighting, but in the Treasuries that reprint the silver age Marvels, they are wrong about both the names and the dates. Try to remain calm. That’s the important thing.

That Conan Treasury is definitely how you want to read those stories. Roy Thomas re-edited his dialogue and Barry Smith re-inked and coloured pages for all the stories. It is the re-mastered version.

Yup, Treasuries are somehow in their own world of desirability. They are much more special than TPB's, because they are more luxurious, just so much bigger to the point of being unwieldy. I can remember reading Thor Treasury 10 when I was 9 years old and really getting that Kirby's artwork lent itself to that format. The only thing I could compare it to at the time was seeing a film on a cinema screen rather than on TV, but I think that comparison still holds up. BTW, I recently bought Treasury bags & boards for the first time and finally put all my Treasuries away securely. I heartily recommend this for anyone who hasn't done it. They look really great bagged and boarded.

I have to say that that often applies to sharing information and knowledge as well. That's why this thread is such a joy. I can voice an opinion entirely devoid of merit, secure in the knowledge that my betters will pile in and correct me. Seriously, it is a joy. I understand why people who are writing books and such want to keep their research to themselves, but if you know in your heart of hearts that you're never going to write the book and if you did only 16 people would read it, then you might as well just tell those 16 people what they want to know. And that's why this is such a tremendous thread. I know for a stone cold fact that there's info on here you can't find anywhere else on T'internet, so big love to everyone.

It's the moment where someone actually decides to collect Victorian chamberpots that you have to marvel at. What makes someone take the plunge, so to speak.

Agree about this in terms of newer comics that I have collected for sheer completism. Will probably never be read. Not because I specifically intend not to read them, but because if it's a choice between Thomas/Buscema for the fifth time or Rob Liefeld for the first time, you know where we're going. HOWEVER.... this absolutely does not apply to my silver & bronze treasures. They are sealed away, and I definitely don't dig them out for a bit of bathtime reading, but when I do get them out or re-sort them, I am like Scrooge McDuck on a giant pile of cash. I saw pictures of, for example, JIM 83 or TOS 39 thousands of times before I ever owned them, so when I'm (carefully) flipping through the pile and light on one of those, I literally shudder. There is a moment of, well, not exactly disbelief that I own it, but....well, no, actually disbelief that I actually own it is exactly what's going on. To see that cover suddenly before my eyes and in my hands is a pride of ownership that I couldn't explain, except to another comic collector. But even then, it would have to be someone who collected comics from a young age, because bonding to something so utterly out of reach when you're that young is a unique experience. When you see something you want with all your heart but know absolutely that you will never have it, you see the limits of your life and the utter hopelessness of your aspirations at a stroke. And then, when, as an adult you finally own it, the rush of joy is one only a child who wanted something for 30 years could understand. It suddenly seems like anything is possible again. Most of adult life is a series of betrayals of your young self, but this is a glorious exception.

Superb. There's no answer to that.

I can only assume comics that were printed for export, missed the boat and were re-circulated at a discount in the US. The 25c/26c thing makes me think 26c is the Canadian price? Also, if it wasn't for the fact that this sticker is clearly intended for retail, you could imagine 25c was the wholesale price. Also, there's about 15 PV's for sale in the UK, so clearly the whole order did not miss the boat. WTFHHH indeed.

Seriously? The price of a DC comic was 40c at this point, btw.

You have to love the fact that the Hulk is falling past an advert for his own TV show.

Just for fun: when I was checking the first hiatus, I discovered that with TTA 62, its unique place in the print schedule was the most likely reason it got ND'd. It occurred to me at that time to check TTA during the second hiatus. TTA 86 is already an old friend because you never see a normal stamp or a Gold stamp of it. TTA 87 struck me as a likely candidate to also meet an odd fate, due again to its weird place in the print queue (it would have been printed at the same time as many of the ones that fell into the 66 hole). However, when I checked, I discovered that its place in the print queue had changed - instead of being in sync with the westerns and ahead of everything else, it was now in sync with Thor, TOS, FF, ASM, Fury, Avengers & Marvel Tales and was a perfectly normal PV, long before there was any PV stamp duality And then this chuffer turned up. Weird when you're right for all the wrong reasons, isn't it? Assume this was a makeweight. Although, much like the Victorians who believed that God put dinosaur bones in the ground to test people's faith, I am now coming to the conclusion that comic packers in the 1960's threw random comics into the export crates just to screw with comic collectors 50 year later.

Agree about Albert's memory - although I do find my memory for comics that were ND is ludicrously good, due to the amount of time spent looking for them or drooling over them, affixed to the back walls of comic shops with ludicrous price tags. Yesterday, I was doing some work on 1979 and though I couldn't remember IF I had eaten, let alone what I might have eaten, that very day I could describe the ND covers from 40+ years ago without blinking.

Two old ladies were sitting on a beach....

Yup, that's exactly what we needed. Ta.

The May 61 JIM arriving with the following month's TTA, TOS & ST makes perfect sense based on the release dates. JIM 60 (May) has a release date of 28/2, and the other three, which are cover dated June, a week later 7/3, so it's not a surprise they rocked up together. According to Steve (and me), the only titles you'd be expecting to see in Sept & Nov would be JIM 60 & 62. So, if I'm understanding both you & Steve: So the September and November 1960 slots were in effect devoid of any Atlas mystery/horror titles. From August 1960 to December the only ones that put in an appearance were ST 77 and JIM 60 So you're saying that JIM 60, which should have been Sept, rocked up in October? along with Strange Tales 77 which was actually supposed to be in October. And then JIM 62 which should have appeared in November came in December. So nothing arrived in Sept & Nov. ( And presumably JIM 63 which should have come in Dec came in Jan) The other titles weren't pressed as PV's as far as we know, which, given that they pressed PV's of the ones they did intend to export, gives the impression that they never had any intention of exporting them. So when you say they were 'expected', I'm sure you & other fans were expecting (and hoping and praying for) them, but they were never coming, right? You were expecting them, but Fred Thorpe wasn't. The mystery is why they were never intended for export, not why they fell off the boat. This bunching up doesn't feel too weird to me. At this point, DC are being printed in Illinois and Atlas in Connecticut. If you only had one title to export for Atlas that month, and it was cover dated 2 months hence, would you actually bother to do the whole export thing for a single title? I can easily imagine IND piling them up until it was worth sending. Also, we know that Donenfeld was on a mission to crush Atlas with his distribution deal, so how surprised would you be if, with only one Atlas title on the shipment they said screw it, send it next month. They certainly weren't going to get in trouble with the boss. The question of course is still WHY was it only one title?

All true, but also there's also no actual cessation, it just reduces down to one PV title per month May 60 - Gunsmoke/JIM June 60 - TGK / ST July 60 - Gunsmoke / KCO / JIM / TOS Aug 60 - TGK / ST / RK Sep 60 - JIM Oct 60 - ST Nov 60 - JIM and then it picks up again from December, which suggests to me that they were experimenting. That one lone issue of TOS is crazy, unless they were testing the waters. Note: I don't have the romance / Millie titles on my sheet, so somebody more thorough than me might be able to see the full pattern (....if only we knew someone like that.....)

Just for the sheer, undiluted Hell of it, I plotted all the comics which 'should' have been ND vs the points in time when the lead character either had their own eponymous UK reprint comic or was on the masthead. The overlap is more than 97%. Even the ones where the overlap is messy have a story. E.g. Conan the Barbarian was stopped from cd September, however the UK reprint title Savage Sword of Conan actually ran from 8/03/1975 to 05/07/1975, so the US import ban almost completely failed to overlap the UK run. However, you can totally see how this happened. According to the Panelologist (Feb 75) Conan was going to be cancelled in June, presumably to make way for a UK B&W weekly. Then, the following month, out of a clear blue sky. SSOC appeared. Presumably not by coincidence, this was launched on the same day as Super Heroes, so I believe that SSOC was quickly moved up the schedule to take advantage of advertising, distribution & marketing synergies and, of course, printing economies of scale may have played a part (Marvel UK were forever changing printers). 2 things then happened - the Conan title fell flat & got cancelled after only 18 weeks - which presumably no one was expecting - and secondly the US CTB was ND at roughly the point where it was predicted in Feb to be ND (depending on whether they were referring to cover dates or release dates). The return dates tie up neatly. SSOC died at the beginning of July, presumably too late to get Conan re-entered into the PV print run for Aug, so printing resumed from September with no 57 (released September 16th, cd Dec). Drac is an even better mess. Note: the UK B&W reprint uses the title of the US B&W magazine rather than a new title, so ‘Dracula Lives’ does not reprint the monthly B&W magazine, Dracula Lives, it reprints monthly colour Tomb of Dracula. Distribution of Tomb Of Dracula ceased in perfect synchronisation with the launch of Dracula Lives from TOD #29 (released 5/11/74). Dracula Lives ceases on 16/6/76, but it merges with POTA from #88 where it shared the mastheads and the covers so it remains non D. Dracula continues to be reprinted in POTA / DL, but by this point, they’ve got another problem: as UK reprints burn through material at twice the rate of US production, Dracula Lives is within 3 months of catching up to Tomb of Dracula. Neil Tennant gets round this by using ‘Dracula presents…’ as a framing device to reprint old Timely spooky stories. POTA/DL ends on issue #123 on 23/2/77. POTA joins the masthead of MWOM. Dracula disappears from UK reprints at this point and the US imports to World immediately resume from #55. This is actually release date January 4th, so printed (but not shipped or distributed) before Dracula ended, but as above, Drac was in name only at this point and the decision to cancel the UK title had clearly been made. But there’s a bit more! Bafflingly, and probably only because there had been a few more US issues of Tomb of Dracula in the ensuing months, they re-introduced Dracula to the masthead and cover of MWOM from issue #247 (22/5/77). This went on for 3 months, so by the time TOD went Non D again (release date 4/10/77), Dracula reprints had ceased again. I suspect the real reason TOD went Non D again may have had as much to do with imminent cancellation. Gene Colan no longer wanted to do it, publication became erratic (2 months, 3 months, 4 months between issues) and there were only 8 further issues before cancellation. While it’s nice to pretend it sits somewhere in the logic of protecting the UK reprints, Occam’s Razor suggests it was just a sinking ship and Marvel had higher hopes for Black Panther and Red Sonja, which they had just started exporting to the UK. There are a few comics that fall into the cracks like this, but out of 479 issues which 'should' have been ND, I only counted 14 that were colouring outside the lines.

Nearly, nearly... Up a bit, right a bit......bingo

Indeed. I suspect the question might be the wrong way round. It might be that when the flood gates opened, they flirted with everyone - literally every US comic publisher - in the first couple of years. I think the way to solve it - and I know Steve has collected all this data but has never laid it out in a single table in this format - is to look at all the publishers in each month together. If there is a lot of chaos in 59/60 (and let's bear in mind that all the publishers were flirting with Miller as well) then I suspect that the Timely PV's in the summer of 1960 were part of everyone chucking their car keys in a bowl. I think that T&P signed a formal deal with Timely (or Atlas or Marvel or the Ace Tomato Company) in Jan 1961. Hence the supply starts getting better and the month disappears off the covers from April (3 month gap). Worth keeping in mind that Marvel in 1960 is one full time employee at one desk, with Kirby & other freelancers dropping their pages off and Stan Goldberg coming in a couple of afternoons a week to help with production and paste ups. There is no “Atlas Comics” at this point. Just Stan. All the back office & operations stuff is done by the Magazine Management team. Post-Wertham, several comics publishers have got out of the business and everyone is baffled that Martin Goodman is not one of them. I suspect that the only reason that their PV printing was so good was that IND were handling their distribution and ECP were doing the printing, so it was out of their hands. I think if it had been something that required some attention from Madison Avenue, it wouldn’t have happened in the summer of 60. All total speculation, of course.

Just noticed that the wikipedia entry for X men uses a PV as its example no 1. Cool. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_X-Men

Well, hats off to you for ploughing through that lot and still wanting more. One of my favourite factoids: the reason that the CCA allowed Drac, vampires, Frankenstein, the mummy, etc was because those all had literary antecedents. And that's why zombies remained banned, because they didn't and were therefore somehow less 'respectable'. Quite how you say a vampire is more respectable than a zombie and keep a straight face I don't know.

Yes, please do. I mean, for a start, I think anyone would be hard pushed to challenge that the price increases / hiatuses were caused by the import tax (64) and devaluation (67), but it's impossible to establish any causal link that the 67 hiatus lasted 17 months because of the cutover from ECP to WCP....but given that it was a massive change to the printing itself, how perfectly the dates line up and how clearly sensible it was not to resume PV's at that point, I will be really impressed if someone pops up with a more likely theory.