What is the most important issue from the year 1980?

[joe_collector]

What did you say? I can't hear you Shill-Boy.

[DrWatson]

Like I said about Conan, I am not saying it is not important, just not like the other books or the price would be higher.

 

Once again, I would remind you that we are talking about Conan #1 and GL/GA #76, not high profile issues like Hulk 181, GS X-Men #1, etc., which are all FAR MORE important to the BA than either of these 1970 books.

 

Compared to GS X-Men 1 and Hulk 181, both Conan and GL/GA aren't even in the same league. They are blips on the radar compared to these behemoths of the 70's.

 

I couldn't even imagine what a Hulk 181 would sell for if there was only a SINGLE copy in CGC 9.6 or higher like GL/GA 76. $50K? 100K? The sky's the limit, as the highest-grade copy has already had bids of over $50K and higher in trade, and Hulk 181 is common as dirt.

 

I don't disagree with everything you are saying here except importance matters in the valuation analysis more than you want to say. Nobody would care about Hulk 181 if it were unimportant and had one 9.6.

[joe_collector]

Please stop quoting this lunatic!

 

 

[DrWatson]

Makes that ignore button kind of useless doesn't it.

[Zonker]

Why not? Look at Showcase 4, it certainly has the value to go along with its influential status of being at the beginning of the Silver Age.

 

I suppose there is some small chance you're serious and not just yanking JC's chain. Surely you understand the significance of Showcase #4 being published a full 5 years earlier than the earliest Marvel hero book? And those 5 years (1957-1961) were HUGE in terms of the maturity of comics as collectibles. The number of surviving copies of a 1956 book versus a 1961-1962 book alone would tend to buoy up the price.

 

Simply stated: You've gotta account for the supply of available copies compared to the demand for those copies.

 

Oh by the way, X-Men 137 was the most important book of 1980.

[gernblanston]

Why not? Look at Showcase 4, it certainly has the value to go along with its influential status of being at the beginning of the Silver Age.

 

I suppose there is some small chance you're serious and not just yanking JC's chain. Surely you understand the significance of Showcase #4 being published a full 5 years earlier than the earliest Marvel hero book? And those 5 years (1957-1961) were HUGE in terms of the maturity of comics as collectibles. The number of surviving copies of a 1956 book versus a 1961-1962 book alone would tend to buoy up the price.

 

Simply stated: You've gotta account for the supply of available copies compared to the demand for those copies.

 

Oh by the way, X-Men 137 was the most important book of 1980.

 

I am saying that demand is driven by the importance of the issue, and that causes the price to climb. Lets say Showcase 4 was not the 1st SA hero, but had the contents of Showcase 5 in it instead, yet had the same number of slabbed submissions in HG. I would say it would be worth over $41,000 less because it is not held to be as important. Would you say that since there are fewer issues it would be the same value regardless of the significance of the book? It wouldn't be as important, but would still be scarce in HG, so under that view, the value should be as high as long as two people tried to purchase 1 unimportant book. So, it is not solely supply/demand equation but importance also enters into the discussion as to how high the value should be on scarce books because all of the books we have discussed are relatively scarce. It seems like a simple point to me.

[Sal]

Why not? Look at Showcase 4, it certainly has the value to go along with its influential status of being at the beginning of the Silver Age.

 

I suppose there is some small chance you're serious and not just yanking JC's chain. Surely you understand the significance of Showcase #4 being published a full 5 years earlier than the earliest Marvel hero book? And those 5 years (1957-1961) were HUGE in terms of the maturity of comics as collectibles. The number of surviving copies of a 1956 book versus a 1961-1962 book alone would tend to buoy up the price.

 

Simply stated: You've gotta account for the supply of available copies compared to the demand for those copies.

 

Oh by the way, X-Men 137 was the most important book of 1980.

 

I am saying that demand is driven by the importance of the issue, and that causes the price to climb. Lets say Showcase 4 was not the 1st SA hero, but had the contents of Showcase 5 in it instead, yet had the same number of slabbed submissions in HG. I would say it would be worth over $41,000 less because it is not held to be as important. Would you say that since there are fewer issues it would be the same value regardless of the significance of the book? It wouldn't be as important, but would still be scarce in HG, so under that view, the value should be as high as long as two people tried to purchase 1 unimportant book. So, it is not solely supply/demand equation but importance also enters into the discussion as to how high the value should be on scarce books because all of the books we have discussed are relatively scarce. It seems like a simple point to me.

 

you know, when i wrote my post above, i just knew you were going to bust out the Showcase 4 book as a buffer to your argument.

 

here's the deal;

 

the Silver Age and the Bronze Age are not - repeat NOT - analogous. the value of Showcase 4 and the reasons for same have nothing to do with the reasons Conan 1 and GL/GA are the values they are.

 

you can't look fifty years after the fact at a book and say "well it's the most valuable NOW, so it must be because it was the first book, which means that the first book of the Bronze Age must also be the most valuable."

 

today's value of a book has nothing to do with its place at the beginning of the Bronze Age. Nothing. when Conan 1 first came out i would be dollars to doughnuts it was more valuable than GL/GA 76. and for quite a bit of time after. the GL/GA explosion in price is a rather recent development, spurred on by CGC and the dearth of uber High Grade copies

[Sal]

oh and just as an FYI, i checked Overstreet 27th edition, and GL/GA 76 is $150 in "NM (9.4)" while Conan 1 is $225 in the same grade

[joecgcmaniac]

oh and just as an FYI, i checked Overstreet 27th edition, and GL/GA 76 is $150 in "NM (9.4)" while Conan 1 is $225 in the same grade

 

In the 18th edition, Conan is $75.00 in Mint, GL is $33.00 in Mint

[gernblanston]

Why not? Look at Showcase 4, it certainly has the value to go along with its influential status of being at the beginning of the Silver Age.

 

I suppose there is some small chance you're serious and not just yanking JC's chain. Surely you understand the significance of Showcase #4 being published a full 5 years earlier than the earliest Marvel hero book? And those 5 years (1957-1961) were HUGE in terms of the maturity of comics as collectibles. The number of surviving copies of a 1956 book versus a 1961-1962 book alone would tend to buoy up the price.

 

Simply stated: You've gotta account for the supply of available copies compared to the demand for those copies.

 

Oh by the way, X-Men 137 was the most important book of 1980.

 

I am saying that demand is driven by the importance of the issue, and that causes the price to climb. Lets say Showcase 4 was not the 1st SA hero, but had the contents of Showcase 5 in it instead, yet had the same number of slabbed submissions in HG. I would say it would be worth over $41,000 less because it is not held to be as important. Would you say that since there are fewer issues it would be the same value regardless of the significance of the book? It wouldn't be as important, but would still be scarce in HG, so under that view, the value should be as high as long as two people tried to purchase 1 unimportant book. So, it is not solely supply/demand equation but importance also enters into the discussion as to how high the value should be on scarce books because all of the books we have discussed are relatively scarce. It seems like a simple point to me.

 

you know, when i wrote my post above, i just knew you were going to bust out the Showcase 4 book as a buffer to your argument.

 

here's the deal;

 

the Silver Age and the Bronze Age are not - repeat NOT - analogous. the value of Showcase 4 and the reasons for same have nothing to do with the reasons Conan 1 and GL/GA are the values they are.

 

you can't look fifty years after the fact at a book and say "well it's the most valuable NOW, so it must be because it was the first book, which means that the first book of the Bronze Age must also be the most valuable."

 

today's value of a book has nothing to do with its place at the beginning of the Bronze Age. Nothing. when Conan 1 first came out i would be dollars to doughnuts it was more valuable than GL/GA 76. and for quite a bit of time after. the GL/GA explosion in price is a rather recent development, spurred on by CGC and the dearth of uber High Grade copies

 

You make some nice points. However, I don't remember Hulk 181 being regarded as that important when it came out, but it seems to be now, and it took Marvel 8 years to have the confidence to do a limited series with that character. I remember Spider-Man 1 always being highly regarded and the other marvel key super heroes though. I am not saying GL 76 is most valuable now because it was the first book of the age, I am saying that it is now regarded as more important than it was then, and so it is most valuable now. Why does today's value have nothing to do with the beginning of the Bronze Age? I think that has EVERYTHING to do with it. Whether the book started in the same regard 37 years ago does not matter to the prices now, and it looks to me that some collectors, maybe not you and some of the others arguing against this, are saying that this book is important as the beginning of the Bronze Age. I know you disagree, but this really is what this entire debate turns on: I don't see Conan 1, today, as more important than GL 76, and if there were a similar number of census figures, GL 76, I believe, would sell for more. just not $8,000 more for the 9.4.

[DocGo]

If X-Men #137 is by far the most significant comic of 1980, the Copper Age didn't begin in 1980 (if that was why this thread was started).

[gernblanston]

Yes, I just started that for the discusssion. I think we talked earlier about the possibility that Crisis or Watchmen coming at the start of the Copper Age (even though they didn't know that then?)

[Sal]

you know, when i wrote my post above, i just knew you were going to bust out the Showcase 4 book as a buffer to your argument.

 

here's the deal;

 

the Silver Age and the Bronze Age are not - repeat NOT - analogous. the value of Showcase 4 and the reasons for same have nothing to do with the reasons Conan 1 and GL/GA are the values they are.

 

you can't look fifty years after the fact at a book and say "well it's the most valuable NOW, so it must be because it was the first book, which means that the first book of the Bronze Age must also be the most valuable."

 

today's value of a book has nothing to do with its place at the beginning of the Bronze Age. Nothing. when Conan 1 first came out i would be dollars to doughnuts it was more valuable than GL/GA 76. and for quite a bit of time after. the GL/GA explosion in price is a rather recent development, spurred on by CGC and the dearth of uber High Grade copies

 

You make some nice points. However, I don't remember Hulk 181 being regarded as that important when it came out, but it seems to be now, and it took Marvel 8 years to have the confidence to do a limited series with that character. I remember Spider-Man 1 always being highly regarded and the other marvel key super heroes though. I am not saying GL 76 is most valuable now because it was the first book of the age, I am saying that it is now regarded as more important than it was then, and so it is most valuable now. Why does today's value have nothing to do with the beginning of the Bronze Age? I think that has EVERYTHING to do with it. Whether the book started in the same regard 37 years ago does not matter to the prices now, and it looks to me that some collectors, maybe not you and some of the others arguing against this, are saying that this book is important as the beginning of the Bronze Age. I know you disagree, but this really is what this entire debate turns on: I don't see Conan 1, today, as more important than GL 76, and if there were a similar number of census figures, GL 76, I believe, would sell for more. just not $8,000 more for the 9.4.

 

seems like we're debating different points here. you're right, Hulk 181 wasn't really important until John Byrne adopted Wolverine and ramped up his significance in his own book. Cockrum didn't care much for the character. the hobby is full of books that rise and fall in value as different writers and artists put their stamp on characters, either elevating or depressing said character's importance to the milieu.

 

what i'm trying to say is that the value of the two books - only talking GL/GA 76 and Conan 1 here - are independent of their historical significance as it involves the beginning of the Bronze Age. it doesn't matter if Conan 1 drops to a dollar bin book, it's still the book that introduced the concepts that were expanded upon by others and created what we now refer to as "the Bronze Age;" the rise of the anti-hero, the second level of Marvel's dominance in the marketplace, and the concept of death as a major component of a character's storyline. i would argue that GL/GA 76 carries along the underpinnings of the late Silver Age, with its concern with heroes and the way they react to social ills/issues of the time. DC at the time had many books that tried to tie in the wave of change that was mirrored in society at the time, and O'Neill and Adams merely continued this tradition, albeit in new and exciting ways.

 

GL/GA 76 is an important book. it's a valuable book even without taking into consideration of its relative scarcity in high grade. it's a high water mark for the hobby. but the BA began with Conan 1

[joe_collector]

what i'm trying to say is that the value of the two books - only talking GL/GA 76 and Conan 1 here - are independent of their historical significance as it involves the beginning of the Bronze Age. it doesn't matter if Conan 1 drops to a dollar bin book, it's still the book that introduced the concepts that were expanded upon by others and created what we now refer to as "the Bronze Age;" the rise of the anti-hero, the second level of Marvel's dominance in the marketplace, and the concept of death as a major component of a character's storyline.

 

And don't forget Conan's success started a real trend towards 3rd-party licensing of characters (Star Wars, Kull, Thongor, Red Sonja, Micronauts, GI Joe, Human Fly, ROM, Godzilla, Transformers, Shogun Warriors, etc. - not to mention outright theft like Punisher/Executioner) which was huge in the BA and CA.

 

And monsters, and horror elements, and....

[gernblanston]

you know, when i wrote my post above, i just knew you were going to bust out the Showcase 4 book as a buffer to your argument.

 

here's the deal;

 

the Silver Age and the Bronze Age are not - repeat NOT - analogous. the value of Showcase 4 and the reasons for same have nothing to do with the reasons Conan 1 and GL/GA are the values they are.

 

you can't look fifty years after the fact at a book and say "well it's the most valuable NOW, so it must be because it was the first book, which means that the first book of the Bronze Age must also be the most valuable."

 

today's value of a book has nothing to do with its place at the beginning of the Bronze Age. Nothing. when Conan 1 first came out i would be dollars to doughnuts it was more valuable than GL/GA 76. and for quite a bit of time after. the GL/GA explosion in price is a rather recent development, spurred on by CGC and the dearth of uber High Grade copies

 

You make some nice points. However, I don't remember Hulk 181 being regarded as that important when it came out, but it seems to be now, and it took Marvel 8 years to have the confidence to do a limited series with that character. I remember Spider-Man 1 always being highly regarded and the other marvel key super heroes though. I am not saying GL 76 is most valuable now because it was the first book of the age, I am saying that it is now regarded as more important than it was then, and so it is most valuable now. Why does today's value have nothing to do with the beginning of the Bronze Age? I think that has EVERYTHING to do with it. Whether the book started in the same regard 37 years ago does not matter to the prices now, and it looks to me that some collectors, maybe not you and some of the others arguing against this, are saying that this book is important as the beginning of the Bronze Age. I know you disagree, but this really is what this entire debate turns on: I don't see Conan 1, today, as more important than GL 76, and if there were a similar number of census figures, GL 76, I believe, would sell for more. just not $8,000 more for the 9.4.

 

seems like we're debating different points here. you're right, Hulk 181 wasn't really important until John Byrne adopted Wolverine and ramped up his significance in his own book. Cockrum didn't care much for the character. the hobby is full of books that rise and fall in value as different writers and artists put their stamp on characters, either elevating or depressing said character's importance to the milieu.

 

what i'm trying to say is that the value of the two books - only talking GL/GA 76 and Conan 1 here - are independent of their historical significance as it involves the beginning of the Bronze Age. it doesn't matter if Conan 1 drops to a dollar bin book, it's still the book that introduced the concepts that were expanded upon by others and created what we now refer to as "the Bronze Age;" the rise of the anti-hero, the second level of Marvel's dominance in the marketplace, and the concept of death as a major component of a character's storyline. i would argue that GL/GA 76 carries along the underpinnings of the late Silver Age, with its concern with heroes and the way they react to social ills/issues of the time. DC at the time had many books that tried to tie in the wave of change that was mirrored in society at the time, and O'Neill and Adams merely continued this tradition, albeit in new and exciting ways.

 

GL/GA 76 is an important book. it's a valuable book even without taking into consideration of its relative scarcity in high grade. it's a high water mark for the hobby. but the BA began with Conan 1

 

That is the nicest set out point for your position yet. Why would you think GL 76 is the high water mark for the hobby though--just the social issues in the context of the day? And, you would not think it matters that GL 76 came out 6 months before Conan 1?

[joe_collector]

DC at the time had many books that tried to tie in the wave of change that was mirrored in society at the time, and O'Neill and Adams merely continued this tradition, albeit in new and exciting ways.

 

That is exactly true, and the more DC books I read, the more I understand that GL/GA 76 is just one of many "social change/conscious" issues, many of which predated it.

 

A great example is Detective Comics 394 from 1969, where Robin has left the team, gone to college and is taking part in student protests and even... *gasp* getting arrested and having a (gulp) criminal record. The first story is about a wronged Native American who tries to kill Bruce Wayne, and is then aided by Batman.

 

But of course, Neal Adams only did the cover, so the DC fanboys didn't grasp onto it (or the other similar issues) as being *important* enough.

[DocGo]

Crisis, DKR, & Watchmen all came out around the same time ('85 & '86) but I tend to think the Copper Age started in the earlier 80s. Perhaps Miller's Daredevil run or the Wolverine mini-series.

 

Did the Wolverine mini notably popularize the "mini-series"? I don't remember many before then of much significance (from a guy with only basic knowledge of pre-Copper ages).

[gernblanston]

I think the current popularity of Wolverine is a result of the first X-Men movie and it really skyrocketed that character's stature because of Hugh Jackman's performance. Before that, I don't remember such a huge following for Wolverine even though there are always collectors speculating on the next big character. If you look at the history, 1974 was the first appearance, then 1982 was the mini, then 1988 was the first ongoing series. Those are fairly large gaps in time so Marvel certainly was not pushing the character too hard, meaning the public certainly was not demanding more at that time.

[joe_collector]

My God, this has got to be one of the most ill-informed posts I've ever read. You obviously have no clue on past comic history or pricing, no idea on how different comics in the 80's were from the 90's, and to state that Wolverine's current popularity is based on the first X-Men movie is just .

 

Go read an OS Guide from 1986-87, then snag one from 1989. Then do the math.

 

I think the current popularity of Wolverine is a result of the first X-Men movie and it really skyrocketed that character's stature because of Hugh Jackman's performance. Before that, I don't remember such a huge following for Wolverine even though there are always collectors speculating on the next big character. If you look at the history, 1974 was the first appearance, then 1982 was the mini, then 1988 was the first ongoing series. Those are fairly large gaps in time so Marvel certainly was not pushing the character too hard, meaning the public certainly was not demanding more at that time.

[joe_collector]

I likely started collecting before you were born, but I don't think that really matters. Many of the issues we are discussing I purchased at the newsstand in the 1970's. So, in response to another inaccurate post, I have followed these issues since they were 15 cents/25 cents and I know what they sell for now.

 

 

I think the current popularity of Wolverine is a result of the first X-Men movie and it really skyrocketed that character's stature because of Hugh Jackman's performance. Before that, I don't remember such a huge following for Wolverine even though there are always collectors speculating on the next big character. If you look at the history, 1974 was the first appearance, then 1982 was the mini, then 1988 was the first ongoing series. Those are fairly large gaps in time so Marvel certainly was not pushing the character too hard, meaning the public certainly was not demanding more at that time.