What is the most important issue from the year 1980?

[joe_collector]

no offense, but only someone who wasn't collecting comics in the late eighties/early 90s would make this kind of a statement.

 

Exactly. This is some speculator who just fell off the turnip truck, trying to seem like he's been buying comics steadily since the 15-cent days.

[gernblanston]

I think the current popularity of Wolverine is a result of the first X-Men movie and it really skyrocketed that character's stature because of Hugh Jackman's performance. Before that, I don't remember such a huge following for Wolverine even though there are always collectors speculating on the next big character. If you look at the history, 1974 was the first appearance, then 1982 was the mini, then 1988 was the first ongoing series. Those are fairly large gaps in time so Marvel certainly was not pushing the character too hard, meaning the public certainly was not demanding more at that time.

 

no offense, but only someone who wasn't collecting comics in the late eighties/early 90s would make this kind of a statement.

 

Wolverine's current and CONTINUED popularity have everything to do with the X-Men being the single biggest book in the Marvel stable for almost three decades, starting with issue 114 or so.

 

when the Wolverine limited series came out, a really cool character that everyone thought was a total badass thanks to his actions in the Hellfire Club / Dark Pheonix storyline immediately vaulted him to a status level essentially unknown in the Marvel U. he was the go-to guy when Marvel needed a sales bump.

 

while the three films certainly haven't changed the level of his popularity, they were by far not the reasons for it. Hugh Jackman might as well be Hugh Jenitals as far as fans are concerned. why do you think the story in the first one revolved so much around Wolverine? it wasn't just because, you know

 

So you honestly believe that no additional interest in the character resulted from the movie? I am not talking about you or longer term collectors. But, I am certain many new people were introduced to the character and checked into the Wolverine books as a result. They count even if you dismiss them. I never said Wolverine wasn't popular in the 1980's, just not to the level of Spider-Man. Who has the numbers on 181 in the years around the movie, say 99, 00, 01, 02? The reason for the spread is that Overstreet was slow in updating the guide based on what people were actually paying for the book, I know, because I bought 2 9.4s way over guide. If there isn't a noticible increase percentage-wise, I will say I am wrong.

[joe_collector]

Somewhere between 1988 to 1990* or so, Hulk 181 went from around $30+ book to $200-$300 book in OS. It was very fast, and far outweighs anything the movies brought. In fact, if you're looking for the main reason Hulk 181 has increased in price in 2002-2007, look at CGC instead.

 

* I only have the Updates from that era, and sometimes the exact numbers don't match (due to the updates being more regular and up-to-date) so I hope someone can confirm the exact numbers.

 

EDIT: I have confirmed that the 1987 OS value was $32

[chrisco37]

Somewhere between 1988 to 1990* or so, Hulk 181 went from around $30+ book to $200-$300 book in OS. It was very fast, and far outweighs anything the movies brought. In fact, if you're looking for the main reason Hulk 181 has increased in price in 2002-2007, look at CGC instead.

 

* I only have the Updates from that era, and sometimes the exact numbers don't match (due to the updates being more regular and up-to-date) so I hope someone can confirm the exact numbers.

 

EDIT: I have confirmed that the 1987 OS value was $32

 

Is the '87 Guide the Superman cover? Looks like my memory was off by a year.

[HarrisonJohn]

I think the current popularity of Wolverine is a result of the first X-Men movie and it really skyrocketed that character's stature because of Hugh Jackman's performance. Before that, I don't remember such a huge following for Wolverine even though there are always collectors speculating on the next big character. If you look at the history, 1974 was the first appearance, then 1982 was the mini, then 1988 was the first ongoing series. Those are fairly large gaps in time so Marvel certainly was not pushing the character too hard, meaning the public certainly was not demanding more at that time.

 

no offense, but only someone who wasn't collecting comics in the late eighties/early 90s would make this kind of a statement.

 

Wolverine's current and CONTINUED popularity have everything to do with the X-Men being the single biggest book in the Marvel stable for almost three decades, starting with issue 114 or so.

 

when the Wolverine limited series came out, a really cool character that everyone thought was a total badass thanks to his actions in the Hellfire Club / Dark Pheonix storyline immediately vaulted him to a status level essentially unknown in the Marvel U. he was the go-to guy when Marvel needed a sales bump.

 

while the three films certainly haven't changed the level of his popularity, they were by far not the reasons for it. Hugh Jackman might as well be Hugh Jenitals as far as fans are concerned. why do you think the story in the first one revolved so much around Wolverine? it wasn't just because, you know

 

So you honestly believe that no additional interest in the character resulted from the movie? I am not talking about you or longer term collectors. But, I am certain many new people were introduced to the character and checked into the Wolverine books as a result. They count even if you dismiss them. I never said Wolverine wasn't popular in the 1980's, just not to the level of Spider-Man. Who has the numbers on 181 in the years around the movie, say 99, 00, 01, 02? The reason for the spread is that Overstreet was slow in updating the guide based on what people were actually paying for the book, I know, because I bought 2 9.4s way over guide. If there isn't a noticible increase percentage-wise, I will say I am wrong.

 

If you want to credit Wolverine's popularity to something other than comics I would credit the 90's cartoon before the 00's films. I've talked to a lot of people about the X-Men movies, and everyone knew of the characters prior, some because they read comic books, most because they grew up on the cartoon, a few because of the video game and the rest simply because they live here on earth. If you want to find people who were unfamiliar with Wolverine before the X-Men movies I would suggest soccer moms who had to take their kids to see it... and I'm gonna just guess that they probably didn't fall in love and spend their colthing allowance on a Hulk 181. The X-Men movies did nothing for the character or comic book, as they were all already well past their sales prime when the movie came out. If people suddenly fell in love with the characters it certainly didn't show in the comic sales. Once the books became an unreadable mess (early 90's) sales fell and never came back. X-Men 1 sold seven million in 91, a current X-Men issue is a success if it breaks a hundred thousand. Wolverine was one of Marvel's top 2 characters for the 80's, solo book or not, it's just a fact. We could argue that Michael Jackson's Triller album wasn't that popular, and so on. It would make as much sense.

[HarrisonJohn]

Somewhere between 1988 to 1990* or so, Hulk 181 went from around $30+ book to $200-$300 book in OS. It was very fast, and far outweighs anything the movies brought. In fact, if you're looking for the main reason Hulk 181 has increased in price in 2002-2007, look at CGC instead.

 

* I only have the Updates from that era, and sometimes the exact numbers don't match (due to the updates being more regular and up-to-date) so I hope someone can confirm the exact numbers.

 

EDIT: I have confirmed that the 1987 OS value was $32

 

I can remember my LCS having a beat up copy of Hulk 181 with the cupon cut out for $80 around '88.

[Sal]

I think the current popularity of Wolverine is a result of the first X-Men movie and it really skyrocketed that character's stature because of Hugh Jackman's performance. Before that, I don't remember such a huge following for Wolverine even though there are always collectors speculating on the next big character. If you look at the history, 1974 was the first appearance, then 1982 was the mini, then 1988 was the first ongoing series. Those are fairly large gaps in time so Marvel certainly was not pushing the character too hard, meaning the public certainly was not demanding more at that time.

 

no offense, but only someone who wasn't collecting comics in the late eighties/early 90s would make this kind of a statement.

 

Wolverine's current and CONTINUED popularity have everything to do with the X-Men being the single biggest book in the Marvel stable for almost three decades, starting with issue 114 or so.

 

when the Wolverine limited series came out, a really cool character that everyone thought was a total badass thanks to his actions in the Hellfire Club / Dark Pheonix storyline immediately vaulted him to a status level essentially unknown in the Marvel U. he was the go-to guy when Marvel needed a sales bump.

 

while the three films certainly haven't changed the level of his popularity, they were by far not the reasons for it. Hugh Jackman might as well be Hugh Jenitals as far as fans are concerned. why do you think the story in the first one revolved so much around Wolverine? it wasn't just because, you know

 

So you honestly believe that no additional interest in the character resulted from the movie? I am not talking about you or longer term collectors. But, I am certain many new people were introduced to the character and checked into the Wolverine books as a result. They count even if you dismiss them. I never said Wolverine wasn't popular in the 1980's, just not to the level of Spider-Man. Who has the numbers on 181 in the years around the movie, say 99, 00, 01, 02? The reason for the spread is that Overstreet was slow in updating the guide based on what people were actually paying for the book, I know, because I bought 2 9.4s way over guide. If there isn't a noticible increase percentage-wise, I will say I am wrong.

 

again, i'd ask you to keep your arguments to one subject. i'm not suggesting anything one way or the other about the movie's effect on Wolverine's popularity, outside of dismissing its importance in the general rise of said popularity. your original statement here was that Wolverine's "current" popularity was due mostly to the films.

 

I and others argued that Wolverine was already ridiculously popular before the movies were a speck in Avi Arad's eye. None of us have said anything about the movies assisting or detracting from the character as one of the top 2 Marvel characters.

 

the analogy i would make is if i suggested that Star Wars 7 - the comic, mind you - was the reason for Han Solo's current popularity at the time

[Jeffro.]

I and others argued that Wolverine was already ridiculously popular before the movies were a speck in Avi Arad's eye. None of us have said anything about the movies assisting or detracting from the character as one of the top 2 Marvel characters.

 

 

Exactly!

[the blob]

I briefly owned a NM Hulk 181 in about 1995 or 1996 or so and remember it being like $450-500 in the OPG at the time. Someone here can look it up.

 

GS X-Men 1 was higher, I think, X-Men 94 was in the same neighborhood as 181.

 

I traded that NM 181 for a VG/VG+ FF #5 and about $100 of SA drek.

 

By far the most expensive BA books at the time. Am I missing anything? Oh sure, I guess you'd hear about some uber high grade HOS 92 selling for multiples of guide, but that's something else, 2 or 3 deep pocketed collectors knocking themselves out who probably already had 10 NM copies of 181.

 

Conan 1 was for many years vastly more expensive, and vastly more common, than GL 76. I have to agree with JC on this. Remember, in the 80s, Conan had FOUR titles at one point. There's a reason why those mid-70s Buscema conans are so cheap, still, there are HUGE numbers of them out there.

 

Someone, give us the print #s, was Conan Marvel's #1 title?

 

GL 76 was an important book and the subsequent issues of the adams/ONeil run got some press due to the social issues and what not, but it wasn't even enough to keep that title from going into a publishing hiatus when Adams left.

 

Why did Marvel wait until the late 80s for Wolverine to get his own series? Who the heck knows. The Claremont story sounds good. Maybe they're dopes? They waited a long time to give the Punisher his own series and he was a very popular "guest" character too (although I guess he had gotten some magzine solo stories).

 

Looking at things 35 years later doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. If you asked someone in 1978 or 1980 what book started it, things would be pretty obvious.

[the blob]

And the Wolverine mini was wildly popular and wildly speculated on. So much so that into the mid-90s you could buy NM copies of the mini issues for $5 and under at shows. Same for X-Men 137, which was incredibly speculated on.

[Marvel 25th-migration]

Marvel may have waited until 1988 to give Wolverine his own ongoing series but when they did they gave him 2 (Marvel Comics Presents was really just another Wolverine series). He was also still in X-Men, Classic X-Men, and numerous one-shots, mini-series and guest appearances. Plus, at their peak popularity, several of these series were published twice a month. Starting in 1988 Marvel was counting on Wolverine to sell as many as 7-8 comics every month. Even Spidey probably only had to sell 5-6 max. Point is, the movie did not make Wolverine popular. The movie was made because Wolverine already was a superstar.

 

 

 

[joe_collector]

Why did Marvel wait until the late 80s for Wolverine to get his own series? Who the heck knows. The Claremont story sounds good. Maybe they're dopes?

 

Far from it, and guys like Claremont believed (and rightly so) that the mystery surrounding Wolverine was his best selling point, and that overexposure too soon, would ruin the character. I believe they were right, and if someone had published Wolvie's origin in 1982, we wouldn't even be talking about him.

 

A good comparison across eras is Wolverine to Cable.

 

Both were extremely popular, but while Marvel took it extremely slow with Wolverine, piecing out small tidbits of info over a few decades, their strategy with Cable was the exact opposite and we came to know everything about him in a year or two - and with his mystique gone, reader interest plummeted.

[Sal]

Why did Marvel wait until the late 80s for Wolverine to get his own series? Who the heck knows. The Claremont story sounds good. Maybe they're dopes?

 

Far from it, and guys like Claremont believed (and rightly so) that the mystery surrounding Wolverine was his best selling point, and that overexposure too soon, would ruin the character. I believe they were right, and if someone had published Wolvie's origin in 1982, we wouldn't even be talking about him.

 

absolutely. Wolverine's origin was the forbidden fruit, and Marvel's really made the character less and less interesting the more they explain him. Weapon X was a good little miniseries, but it should have stopped there. "James Howlett?" wft? sounds like a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

 

people are strange. they love a good mystery, but not the explanations. witness "X-Files." it's peak popularity was when there were no answers. once they started trying to explain everything, it all fell apart

[joe_collector]

"James Howlett?" wft? sounds like a character from "Little House on the Prairie."

 

Not to mention that Logan used to make fun of James Hudson (Guardian) by calling him "Jimmy" all the time....

 

P.S. I finally got around to reading all of Origin, and wow, what an absolutely horrible mini-series. Apart from all the stupid changes and retcons, it reads like it was written by a 5-year old, with -poor execution and text blurbs constantly repeating what we're seeing in the panels.

 

I think I got a brain tumor from reading it.

[the blob]

Far from it, and guys like Claremont believed (and rightly so) that the mystery surrounding Wolverine was his best selling point, and that overexposure too soon, would ruin the character. I believe they were right, and if someone had published Wolvie's origin in 1982, we wouldn't even be talking about him.

 

--------------------------------

 

Well, a wolverine series earlier than 88 would not have needed to go into his origin, it could have just been a series of current (or at least post joining X-Men) solo adventures, which was pretty much what the wolverine series wound up being in large part. As was Wolverine's role in MCP other than the Weapon X run. Honestly, I don't think giving him his own series in 1984 after the mini had been a stunning success would have doomed the character. I'm not crying for marvel, but they did give up several years of good sales going the route they did, from a business perspective perhaps not so smart. And maybe they were slapping themsevles on the foreheads too when Wolverine and Punisher regular series were massive hits ("uhg, why didn't we do this earlier! Instead, we had a U.S One series that was a bomb!)

 

[Zonker]

people are strange. they love a good mystery, but not the explanations. witness "X-Files." it's peak popularity was when there were no answers. once they started trying to explain everything, it all fell apart

 

 

I'm thinking Twin Peaks is probably a better example of the point you're making there, Sal. After Who Killed LP was played out, the audience went

 

X-Files though never really delivered many coherent answers. How many alien races were there? What were the various agendas? What exactly happened to Mulder's sister? About the only unambiguous reveal was Mulder's parentage.

 

So... actually maybe that's the problem with Wolverine: the quality and logic of the answers rather than their very existance. I gather the current status of his origin is a series of red herrings ret-conned on top of a bunch of possibly-false memories.

 

It'll be interesting to see how well the creators of Lost resolve this problem, as they claim they're well aware of the dangers of going down either the Twin Peaks or the X-Files route.

[HarrisonJohn]

I mentioned this ealier but does anyone think, besides Claremont not wanting a Wolverine solo book, that maybe Marvel was a little bit nervous giving a solo book to a violent, anti-hero character? Comics were still pretty innocent in the early to mid 80's.

[joecgcmaniac]

I mentioned this ealier but does anyone think, besides Claremont not wanting a Wolverine solo book, that maybe Marvel was a little bit nervous giving a solo book to a violent, anti-hero character? Comics were still pretty innocent in the early to mid 80's.

 

Ahhh, the days of innocence :cloud9:

 

 

 

 

[joe_collector]

You do realize that The Punisher mini was published in 1986, and that "early to mid 80's" means 1980-85, right?

 

No one is disputing that 1986-89 was a period of rapid change in the comics world, with "grim and gritty" ruling the day with everything from Dark Knight to Watchmen to both Punisher and Wolverine getting their own series.

[seanfingh]

 

I don't know about an increase in awareness as I was talking about the movie causing the book to increase in value so much. Anybody have a guide price for Hulk 181 in 1999 and then in 2001 (even though the guide trailed the actual prices people were paying on ebay for years)? Why did it take Marvel until 1988 to give an icon his own series? Other important Marvel characters, Spider-man, Hulk, Daredevil had their own titles.

 

Don't have my guides in front of me, but I'll bet prices for Hilk #181 were plenty high at that point.

 

IIRC, the jump really took place between 1988-89 guides. In the '88 Guide, I believe Hulk #181 was an appx. $25-30 book (same with ASM #129). The next year, it had jumped up to $75. As past history has shown, this is an astronomical jump for OS.

 

I sold a copy of 181 to Miami Street Comics in South Bend, Indiana in either December '91 or January '92 for $500, *gulp* 10 copies of Guardians of the Galaxy #1 and 10 copies of New Mutants 87. The copy was absolutely perfect and definitely would have been at least CGC 9.4, prbably higher. My recollection is that I was paid well above retail guide just for the cash portion, not to mention those sweet investment books I got as well (insert dolphin waxing graemlin), but he had a customer with a standing bid of 800-900 for a very high grade copy. I recount this tale of unbridled greed and speculation gone wild to show, unequivocally that Wolverine had gone bananas by, at the very least, this time frame.