The prices some people are asking for O/A are Ridiculous!

[Claudio]

 

I don't care if I am an enabler if they can get me a piece I covet.

 

Which, as I said and this kind of thinking shows, is why the dealers get away with prices that are over-inflated on OA. Thank you for proving my point. I appreciate that.

I never argued against you. I choose to live in the real world where dealers gouge and people sell commissions on ebay for a profit. I just try to plan accordingly so that I can still enjoy the hobby. My only motive posting here was to try to explain why I think paying 2x "market" value is better than not getting a piece I really want. To each their own.

[Meeley Man]

I never argued against you. I choose to live in the real world where dealers gouge and people sell commissions on ebay for a profit.

 

See, comments like that are why I think you have been arguing against me.

 

And the "real world" you live in, is only that way because you (and many others) allow it to be so. The things I've been speaking about on this, could easily become reality, if consumers would show a modicum of self-control and think ahead, rather than act out on impulse. Gouging dealers and con sketch flippers are not some great evil that cannot be stopped. They are easily defeated, if people just put some of their selfish impulses in check. Not exactly something you need to live in an "unreal fantasyland" to accomplish.

 

I just try to plan accordingly so that I can still enjoy the hobby.

 

Well, I guess that's where we differ. You are content to let things be as they are, so long as you can find a way to profit from it for yourself. That's fine and totally your choice.

 

I, OTOH, would rather work towards solutions to make the problems no longer an issue for people. Not just work around them as best I can to suit my own desires. It would make the hobby more enjoyable for everyone that way, not just for myself. (thumbs u

 

My only motive posting here was to try to explain why I think paying 2x "market" value is better than not getting a piece I really want. To each their own.

 

That's fine. But the thread is about the ridiculous pricing some dealers do on OA being a problem. Not why paying it is better to satisfy ones own selfishness.

 

But, as you say, "to each their own."

[comix4fun]

 

A mistaken fallacy: OA is not a necessity.

 

 

 

Unless it's created by Richard Moore, Randy "Rantz" Kintz and Chris Ivy you mean.

[Meeley Man]

 

A mistaken fallacy: OA is not a necessity.

 

 

 

Unless it's created by Richard Moore, Randy "Rantz" Kintz and Chris Ivy you mean.

 

No, not even then. But buying some shows that a person has good taste in OA, though.

[Nexus]

I never argued against you. I choose to live in the real world where dealers gouge and people sell commissions on ebay for a profit.

 

See, comments like that are why I think you have been arguing against me.

 

And the "real world" you live in, is only that way because you (and many others) allow it to be so. The things I've been speaking about on this, could easily become reality, if consumers would show a modicum of self-control and think ahead, rather than act out on impulse. Gouging dealers and con sketch flippers are not some great evil that cannot be stopped. They are easily defeated, if people just put some of their selfish impulses in check. Not exactly something you need to live in an "unreal fantasyland" to accomplish.

 

I just try to plan accordingly so that I can still enjoy the hobby.

 

Well, I guess that's where we differ. You are content to let things be as they are, so long as you can find a way to profit from it for yourself. That's fine and totally your choice.

 

I, OTOH, would rather work towards solutions to make the problems no longer an issue for people. Not just work around them as best I can to suit my own desires. It would make the hobby more enjoyable for everyone that way, not just for myself. (thumbs u

 

My only motive posting here was to try to explain why I think paying 2x "market" value is better than not getting a piece I really want. To each their own.

 

That's fine. But the thread is about the ridiculous pricing some dealers do on OA being a problem. Not why paying it is better to satisfy ones own selfishness.

 

But, as you say, "to each their own."

 

I'm sure you really believe what you're saying, but it's impossible to take anything of it seriously when your sig is a line from POINT BREAK:

 

"Fear causes hesitation. And hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true."

 

Yes, the movie with Patrick Swayze as Yoda-like surfer/bank robber "Bodhi" and Keanu Reeves as a college quarterback-turned-FBI agent named Johnny Utah.

 

 

Unless you're going for irony, in which case all is forgiven.

[malvin]

I never argued against you. I choose to live in the real world where dealers gouge and people sell commissions on ebay for a profit.

 

See, comments like that are why I think you have been arguing against me.

 

And the "real world" you live in, is only that way because you (and many others) allow it to be so. The things I've been speaking about on this, could easily become reality, if consumers would show a modicum of self-control and think ahead, rather than act out on impulse. Gouging dealers and con sketch flippers are not some great evil that cannot be stopped. They are easily defeated, if people just put some of their selfish impulses in check. Not exactly something you need to live in an "unreal fantasyland" to accomplish.

 

I just try to plan accordingly so that I can still enjoy the hobby.

 

Well, I guess that's where we differ. You are content to let things be as they are, so long as you can find a way to profit from it for yourself. That's fine and totally your choice.

 

I, OTOH, would rather work towards solutions to make the problems no longer an issue for people. Not just work around them as best I can to suit my own desires. It would make the hobby more enjoyable for everyone that way, not just for myself. (thumbs u

 

My only motive posting here was to try to explain why I think paying 2x "market" value is better than not getting a piece I really want. To each their own.

 

That's fine. But the thread is about the ridiculous pricing some dealers do on OA being a problem. Not why paying it is better to satisfy ones own selfishness.

 

But, as you say, "to each their own."

 

I'm on "ignore" because I've previously pointed out the fallacies of your argument so this is more for everyone else.

 

Sure, in the fantasy world, everyone would have "self control" and we can keep prices low by having the masses collude and refusing to pay more than $10 bucks for any sketch and you can have a Brian Bolland Kyle Rayner sketch for 10 bucks.

 

That sounds like a socialist paradise. Everyone can get everything they want, it doesn't matter if they are the janitor or a doctor, they all got paid the same and they can all eat prime rib every night. But you know what? It doesn't work, check your history books, the Berlin Wall fell. The people behind the wall weren't eating prime rib every night. There wasn't enough to go around b/c that system didn't work.

 

I can't believe people paying what they are willingto pay for items they want (and pricing you out as a side effect) is called selfish.

 

Malvin

[Claudio]

I'm on "ignore" because I've previously pointed out the fallacies of your argument so this is more for everyone else.

 

Sure, in the fantasy world, everyone would have "self control" and we can keep prices low by having the masses collude and refusing to pay more than $10 bucks for any sketch and you can have a Brian Bolland Kyle Rayner sketch for 10 bucks.

 

That sounds like a socialist paradise. Everyone can get everything they want, it doesn't matter if they are the janitor or a doctor, they all got paid the same and they can all eat prime rib every night. But you know what? It doesn't work, check your history books, the Berlin Wall fell. The people behind the wall weren't eating prime rib every night. There wasn't enough to go around b/c that system didn't work.

 

I can't believe people paying what they are willingto pay for items they want (and pricing you out as a side effect) is called selfish.

 

Malvin

A very rational and well thought out point, Malvin.... I'll have none of that on MY message boards!!!! I am putting you on ignore too!

[tth2]

I'm sure you really believe what you're saying, but it's impossible to take anything of it seriously when your sig is a line from POINT BREAK:

 

"Fear causes hesitation. And hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true."

 

Yes, the movie with Patrick Swayze as Yoda-like surfer/bank robber "Bodhi" and Keanu Reeves as a college quarterback-turned-FBI agent named Johnny Utah.

 

Point Break has a real cult following among a surprisingly large number of cinemophiles.

[Nexus]

I'm sure you really believe what you're saying, but it's impossible to take anything of it seriously when your sig is a line from POINT BREAK:

 

"Fear causes hesitation. And hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true."

 

Yes, the movie with Patrick Swayze as Yoda-like surfer/bank robber "Bodhi" and Keanu Reeves as a college quarterback-turned-FBI agent named Johnny Utah.

 

Point Break has a real cult following among a surprisingly large number of cinemophiles.

 

Sure, in the way ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW or SHOWGIRLS has a cult following. We're not talking BLADE RUNNER here.

 

I worked for the studio that released it back in 1991. We all knew it was going to be a cheese classic from the first test screening. Anyhow, here's an insider tidbit about the movie (although it may be public information by now): James Cameron did an uncredited -script polish and ghost-directed some of the bigger action set pieces for his then-wife, Kathryn Bigelow.

 

It didn't help.

[Meeley Man]

Point Break has a real cult following among a surprisingly large number of cinemophiles.

 

 

It's a pretty good popcorn action film, actually. You can't think about it too hard, though, or you'll ruin your enjoyment. I mean, a field FBI agent with a bad knee, being allowed to work in the field? Never happen, he'd have a desk job at best. And you have Gary Busey as the vetran and "stable" FBI agent? Yeah, right.

 

But, as I said, as long as you don't think about things, it can be a lot of fun to watch. The skydiving scenes are great and the foot chase is one of the best in movie history, IMO. The action and stuntwork is really an incredible visual treat. (thumbs u

[Claudio]

That movie is so awesome, I'd pay 2x market value to see it again!

 

 

 

 

[Meeley Man]

A very rational and well thought out point, Malvin....

 

It would be, if I was advocating some kind of governmental establishment to control the pricing and issues. But I'm not. Never have, never will. I said for the issues of dealers over-inflating prices and sketch flippers to be stopped, collectors need to show some self-control. For themselves. No law agency is going to make you do it. You do it yourself, because you can. You have the power, no one else. And no, it's not a "fantasyland" to think it can be done. People can control their urges, otherwise we'd all be raving maniacs, out there trying to kill everyone who annoyed us (granted, there are those who do such things, but they are a very small minority, while the vast majority uses self-control and does not do that).

 

Unfortunately, many OA collectors willingly choose to forego doing so, simply to satisfy their own desires and lusts (which, if that is not the basis for the term "selfish," I don't know what would be). That's their right and I never said otherwise. But if fixing these problems is what matters, than that needs to change. And until it does, things will go on as they do right now. For those of us who want to help address these problems, it sucks for us. But that is the solution and it can't be forced (because, as it was noted, when it has been done before it always fails).

 

So, before anyone wants to go calling someone a socialist, or whatever insulting term one wants to use, be sure you actually know what was said. I wasn't calling for some governmental style law to stop this. Just that people use a little common sense and self-control ON THEIR OWN. Of their OWN FREE WILL. If a fair marketplace is what matters to someone, then you already know what to do. If all that matters to you is "getting your's," well, that's how things are right now and you are free to indulge in your selfishness. Simple as that.

 

Of course, if you don't care about a more fair marketplace, it makes ones reasons for going on a thread that talking about how unfair/ridiculous the current marketplace can be a pretty stupid thing. Unless you were just looking to start an argument.

[Meeley Man]

That movie is so awesome, I'd pay 2x market value to see it again!

 

 

 

 

 

Not me. But if all you can think about is your own selfishness and don't care about letting the film have a more fair marketplace for people...

 

[Khazano]

Socialist is a bit extreme... But my God, are you ever self-righteous!

 

 

 

 

[Meeley Man]

Socialist is a bit extreme... But my God, are you ever self-righteous!

 

Well, whenever I've been told something like this, my response is always the same: You can't be "self-rightous," without also being "right!"

[Claudio]

Just that people use a little common sense and self-control ON THEIR OWN. Of their OWN FREE WILL. If a fair marketplace is what matters to someone, then you already know what to do. If all that matters to you is "getting your's," well, that's how things are right now and you are free to indulge in your selfishness. Simple as that.

I doubt I would pay 2x what I think a piece is worth BUT I would probably pay 2x what YOU think a piece is worth because I think your method for evaluating prices is flawed. So, in that respect, I think the marketplace is fair. Personally, I think you are selfish for wanting people to not buy art they want in order to bring prices down. Why deny something to others when (for the most part) they work hard to make a living and want to treat themselves to some nostalgia? What's next, we need to boycott Ruth's Chris in order to bring prices down for you too? Seriously, Picasso was the most prolific artist ever. His art shouldn't be worth so much. Let's boycott that too until it drops to the point where we can all afford it. You do not have the final say in determining prices, so just let it rest.

 

How did I get sucked into this??

[Claudio]

Well, whenever I've been told something like this, my response is always the same: You can't be "self-rightous," without also being "right!"

Wow, someone told you this before? I am shocked!

[Meeley Man]

Just that people use a little common sense and self-control ON THEIR OWN. Of their OWN FREE WILL. If a fair marketplace is what matters to someone, then you already know what to do. If all that matters to you is "getting your's," well, that's how things are right now and you are free to indulge in your selfishness. Simple as that.

I doubt I would pay 2x what I think a piece is worth BUT I would probably pay 2x what YOU think a piece is worth because I think your method for evaluating prices is flawed. So, in that respect, I think the marketplace is fair. Personally, I think you are selfish for wanting people to not buy art they want in order to bring prices down. Why deny something to others when (for the most part) they work hard to make a living and want to treat themselves to some nostalgia? What's next, we need to boycott Ruth's Chris in order to bring prices down for you too? Seriously, Picasso was the most prolific artist ever. His art shouldn't be worth so much. Let's boycott that too until it drops to the point where we can all afford it. You do not have the final say in determining prices, so just let it rest.

 

Where did I say boycott an artist's work? I said that, if you know for certain that a dealer is gouging, don't do business with them. Don't buy from a dealer who you know is manipulating the market price. It shouldn't matter what the piece is, even if it is your holiest of holy grails. If it is in possession of that dealer, you don't buy from them, because you know they gouge the buying public and attempt to manipulate the market.

 

There are plenty of dealers who don't do this and you should buy from them. This whole thread is about ones who ask ridiculous prices, which you know are not even close to market value. I said that the solution is to not buy from such dealers (no matter what piece of art they have). And the fact that many collectors still do, by letting their own lust and selfishness dictate their actions, is why dealers like that get away with doing it and will continue to do so. Sorry if that didn't put you and many other collectors in a very good light, but I'm not responsible for the choices you make. You are.

 

And I've never said I should have the final say in determining the price. I said the market (i.e. the buying public) should. And on auction sites they do, which is why I find the end of an auction a much better guide to a fair market value, than some gouging dealer's website price.

 

Really, you guys need to actually respond to what I've actually written here, not what you THINK (wish?) I said, or make this about me (i.e. with personal insults directed at me), so you can feel that you discredited my actual points. It is a very weak debating tactic and doesn't address what was actually written by me.

[Meeley Man]

Well, whenever I've been told something like this, my response is always the same: You can't be "self-rightous," without also being "right!"

Wow, someone told you this before? I am shocked!

 

Well, if that's the "worst" thing that they can come up with to say about me, I must be living right.

 

[mister_not_so_nice]

So what is an acceptable mark-up for OA before it reaches the "gouging" criteria?

 

If a dealer/colector buys a piece for "under market value" should they then post it for sale at "market value?"

 

If they buy the piece for "market value" can they increase the price by 10%? 20%? What's fair?

 

What about art reps? They don't even have to pay for the art they sell, so why aren't they giving it to me?

 

Mike

 

and as an aside, I think this thread is losing value rapidly!