Amazing Adventures 11 NM+ US vs UK edition

[sandman-migration]

I have been tracking Amazing Adventures 11 for a while and recently one CGC 9.6 copy was sold at US$220.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2190871160&category=64

 

A CGC 9.6 cents copy is now at Ebay and reserve is met at US$500.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2192398126&category=33826

 

Both cents/pence copy is printed at the same period. Can anyone give an estimation of the ratio cents:pence? If the UK edition has a lower print, shouldn't it be in higher demand, thus higher priced? Or collectors has preferance to the US edition?

[ninanina]

It's been mentioned on occasion that any pence version is about 80% the value of the US version. It's just generally more desirable.

[Bronty]

I think 80% is way high... I doubt the pence copy will crack 50% of the cents copy. Americans don't like foreign collectibles! (realizing I am making a sweeping generalization here, but for the most part I believe it to be true)

[ninanina]

On this particular hi-grade, I would tend to agree with you. I am thinking the 80% figure I mentioned may have revolved around more ordinary comics, not necessarily in hi-grade.(Going by memory-it's been awhile)

 

I know I wouln't want a pence copy at any price. Just doesn't do anything for me.

[Bronty]

You know, it's funny, they should almost be worth more because they are rarer, but nontheless there is just no demand for them and therefore they are cheap. I think the highest percentages would be garnered on low grade early marvels. I.e. I would estimate you might get 50-60% of cents price for a good condition pence FF1, for example. I think on any lower demand or higher grade books the percentage would be even less, as low as 33% or even less in some cases. There's just no demand for them!

[murph0]

To see just how cheap most pence copies are versus their American counterparts, go to the Vault Auctions and look at the prices they've realized from some of their early high grade Marvels.

 

Brian

[PovertyRow]

Pah! A crappy Polydor 45 of the Beatles' MY BONNIE/THE SAINTS from January 1962. Get it outta here! And what's THIS? DRACULA 1897 Constable first edition by Stoker? Eeeyyewwww!

[blowout]

On this particular hi-grade, I would tend to agree with you. I am thinking the 80% figure I mentioned may have revolved around more ordinary comics, not necessarily in hi-grade.

 

I have never heard 80% mentioned (far too high) and agree with Bronty that 50% is usualy the high tide mark for pence copies. No matter what the grade or title, even in the UK they fetch a much lower price than the US versions. Go figure.

[BronzeBruce13]

Great topic... I was thinking about this too.

 

 

What I'd like to know is this... were the "Pence Versions" part of the original print runs, with just a black plate change near the end of the run to replace the price on the cover (like "US 30/35¢ Price Variants")? Maybe some of our forum printing experts and others that may know what process was used exactly to create different priced versions... could help?

 

Seems to me, if the interior is from the same exact print run (which I'm assuming it is since the language is the same) AND the cover too was part of the original "cover print run" (makes sense from a cost pov) with a minor plate adjustment to change the price... I don't think there's a good reason for the books to be dismissed to the extent suggested here (50%?).

 

If my assumptions above are true, the "pence version" in many ways parallel the highly sought after "US 30/35¢ price variants" which command multiples of guide. I find the gap in desirability puzzling.

 

I bounced a similar topic off someone awhile back when I reluctantly agreed to sell Gene (DeLekkerste) my Thor 337 9.8 (which had a higher price, still in US funds 75¢ (instead of 60¢) but was actually the "Canadian Version" he said... even though it was not noted on the label?). He did not want it... and It was suggested to me that many Americans are "Xenophobic" (unreasonable fear of that which is foreign or just strange) and that has to be the answer in part.

 

However, I have to wonder if this feeling/apprehension is in part just ignorance concerning the production of Pence/Canadian books. I wonder (if its established that the "Pence/Canadian versions" were printed in the United States along with the rest of the "original run") that the attitude would be different? In my view, its a "US Original Produced Comic" if so, with a minor change to the price block on the cover... not a foreign version really. Produced not only like coveted "US 30/35¢ price variants", but similar to other slightly adjusted books too (Whitman, Multi-Pack, etc.). Its also "less" of a "cover adjustment" than some direct vs. newsstand editions really.

 

I'm also guessing another major contributing factor to the attitude that exists currently is that since there are many "Reprint" versions of foreign comics... that ALL foreign priced versions are "assumed" to be reprints too. Just look at that German version of Hulk 181 (it was not even printed with the original print materials... it was scanned and printed at a much later date too). I suppose any country that required a "language conversion" had to reprint the book similarly (maybe resulting in a poor quality reproduction too?), not use the US version with a price change.

 

I'd like to know what countries received actual "original same language print run comics" with a price change vs. those that only reprinted the books later when they did language conversions?

 

I have to think that if "Pence/Canadian Versions" were part of the original run that attitudes could change going forward (somewhat anyway) if a better understanding of their production/distribution is understood. That should happen eventually as we will cover nearly every comic topic and as more of these books get slabbed. It could also come to the forefront more if demand for "US 30/35¢ price variants" continues to grow.

 

[Bronty]

I bounced a similar topic off someone awhile back when I reluctantly agreed to sell Gene (DeLekkerste) my Thor 337 9.8 (which had a higher price, still in US funds 40¢? but was actually the "Canadian Version" he said... even though it was not noted on the label?). He did not want it... and It was suggested to me that many Americans are "Xenophobic" (unreasonable fear of that which is foreign or just strange) and that has to be the answer in part.

 

That's exactly the issue. As far as the parallel to 30/35c variants... well, one is viewed as a homebred rarity, the other is viewed as foreign and therefore undesirable. No contest. I don't like the attitude but hey that's the way it goes. Perhaps you're right that further education can change this mindset but I think it will be a tough hill to climb.

 

[shiverbones]

i think people just can't get over the difference in that upper left box. When they look through their run, they want comformity of appearance. An american price change is still cents, so it looks the same. I personally don't really want a pence copy, but something like a 9.6 AA#11 at the price it went for would work for me. The other trouble is even if individuals are OK with it, in the back of their mind they know if they have to sell, people will snub their noses at it. Its not fair, maybe it will change

[LordRahl]

I think this is up there with the negativity towards restoration. Education for collectors in both areas would probably help those respective markets. However I think the pence copies have a tougher hill to climb. Americans are VERY ethno centric, most societys are but we take it to a new level. Perhaps the scarcity of pence copies will eventually register with collectors and prices will spike, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[OldGuy]

Americans are VERY ethno centric, most societys are but we take it to a new level.

 

Only because we're better the everyone else.

[PovertyRow]

Americans are VERY ethno centric, most societys are but we take it to a new level.

 

Only because we're better the everyone else.

 

[delekkerste]

I bounced a similar topic off someone awhile back when I reluctantly agreed to sell Gene (DeLekkerste) my Thor 337 9.8 (which had a higher price, still in US funds 40¢? but was actually the "Canadian Version" he said... even though it was not noted on the label?). He did not want it... and It was suggested to me that many Americans are "Xenophobic" (unreasonable fear of that which is foreign or just strange) and that has to be the answer in part.

 

A big motivating factors for a lot of collectors is nostalgia...when I wax nostalgically about my early days of collecting and picking up those old Simonson Thors in 1983 at the local 7-11 or comic shop, all of those books had 60 cent covers. If I had lived in Toronto instead of Denver at the time, maybe I would be nostalgic for 75 cent Canadian versions now, but since I didn't, I only want what was part of my youth experience. Sure, the content of the books was also part of my early collecting experience that I'm nostalgic about, so the 75 cent cover Canadian version of Thor #337 is still worth something to me, but a lot, lot less than a 60 cent version.

 

At least the Canadian version is denominated in cents so at least it theoretically *could* have been sold on the stands in Denver in 1983 without people totally freaking out about why the book had a strange foreign currency price on the cover. A lot of collectors view comics (at least in pamphlet form) as being a very American art form, indeed, being a part of Americana. As a result, books that have cover prices denominated in foreign currencies or cover/interior text written in a foreign language cause a big disconnect in the brain leading (justifiably) to lower prices for those books on the part of American collectors. Don't discount the power of nostalgia as a fundamental value driver for a comic - it's much more important than scarcity or print runs or whether or note a book was printed using the same plates as the US version or not.

 

Gene

[BronzeBruce13]

I need to reference my books instead of guessing... how did I come up with 40¢??

I edited my post and inserted the correct pricing of (60¢/75¢)... thanks Gene.

 

Of course nostalgia (familiarity) has a great deal to do with it. Naturally, you want to see what your eye "expects to see". A favorite comic is like an old buddy. When you see it with an unexpected change, it may stop you in your tracks for a moment... like a real friend showing up with a new nose job or sporting 30 extra pounds... but he's still the same guy!

 

I can also relate because I have felt similar aversion to "direct editions" vs. the "newsstand editions" that I bought far more often and prefer. In most cases, I would select a "newsstand version" with the upc given the choice. I just like, remember and prefer the way the price looks (without the diamond) and even the upc box. Even now, I still would rather have the "upc" instead of the comic character because I was used to the upc. However, I understand that what I expect to see and what I prefer to see was influenced by my past buying and a visual association. I may be among the minority?, but I'm able to move past those subtle differences and personl preferences (based from my original purchase of the item) and it won't stop me from buying a "direct edition" if that's what's available. I may buy the newsstand at some point later, and if its equal or better move the direct, but it would not be someting I targeted a purchase for.

 

I still believe that part of the "disconnect" that leads to avoidance is somewhat irrational and due to some ignorance, particularly in cases where the book was part of the "original US print run" thus printed in English. As far as I've learned thus far, (and I'm hoping to hear from that forumite who was involved in printing comics?) these books (UK/Canadian) only go through a minor adjustment in the printing process, similar to what US price variants and other variant editions (Whitman, etc.) go through.

 

Could this be similar to a left/right brain issue in some ways? If you forget the price and what it represents and just view the amount of change on the front cover from a graphic/content point of view, the Pence/Canadian editions go through less of an adjustment than a "direct edition" does when compared to a "newsstand edition". There are a few changes on those... the price area and upc area.

 

Assuming collectors can accept those changes (direct vs. newsstand) for the most part, this leads me to believe its not all nostalgia and that there are a few incorrect "preconceived notions" about some foreign editions (UK/Canadian) that come into play. Specifically, that they are not the original comic from the original US print run, they are reprints,and may be of poorer quality too. I figure there are some other xenophobic elements I just can't identify as well. Keep in mind that books that were converted into different languages and were definitely reprinted at a later date are a different animal by far. Question is... do "UK/Canadian" comics suffer a unfair association with them and a subsequent avoidance?

 

For me, the vast majority of the issue really comes down to whether or not the comic was in fact part of the original US print run or not. If it was, and only had a minor adjustment to the price area, It's still a US comic sent somewhere else to me. When I personally stop and think about it, I don't associate it as a foreign comic any more than any I would other US made products that have a label/price change on it because its intended for another market. From a collecting standpoint, I'll take it into consideration like I do "direct vs. newsstand" and probably won't discriminate against it as much as others... but that's me. If its a more valuable key, I'll of course have to weigh general attitude and potential resale into the equation. Supply and opportunity are also a factor. I would of course, given the choice, buy a US Version if all things were the same (or buy both), but I can tell you though if I see a Pence Marvel Team Up #1 in 9.6 or other sweet HTF keys in particular that I don't own and are just not in high supply... I'll go for it because 99.5% of what I want and expect to see is there, it is an original, and a HTF item that will be welcomed into my collection whether P or ¢. I can get over the other .5% because I'll be thrilled to own the book.

 

On that note... if anyone has any high grade Pence keys available raw or CGC? PM me.

[shiverbones]

you brought up some really good points! Especially how subtle the difference is compared to direct versions. I feel my stubborn resistance weakening....

I wonder what people would do if all copies of a book had a printing defect EXCEPT the pence copies...

[comicmankev]

Don't get me started on this subject again

 

I am in the UK, and have sold and collected comics for 15 years or so. I have sold many cents/pence copies. And seeing as I have probablt had more through my hands than most here, I hve to put my bit in.

 

UK dealers don't touch pence copies, period. This is not an 'I'm English so I'll collect the English priced stuff' sort of thing. UK collectors/dealers want the cents copies, thats why we call them 'American comics', and all the dealers are 'American comic shops'. If they want UK comics, they buy the Beano or The Dandy (which are catching up in price recently, two record sales in the past few months on these!).

 

But the main of my pence copies go to Americans. I agree that not everybody likes them, but not everybody cares about 30/35 cent varients either. I sold a pence copy of AF 15 for $4500 last year, and several other key issues for the current market value or higher. The first estimate of 80% is probably correct as a general rule, but some issues can command more, some less.

 

At the end of the day, these are the same comics, something lots don't understand. They were printed by Marvel/DC etc. at the same press, at the same time, just changed the printer at the end. They are rarer, but this should not effect the value either.

 

And JFYI, I'm not fussed about the price on the cover, and I make some good flips buying from UK dealers and selling to Americans

 

[Bronty]

Kev,

 

Would you agree that the 80% estimate perhaps holds true in England but nowhere else? And I agree, you're in a great position to flip. Kinda like being in Vancouver - the cheap-[!@#%^&^] collector mentality here, makes it a good place to buy

[ghoulaid]

This same phenomenon shows itself in the non-sport card market also. British versions (A&BC) of classic sets such as Outer Limits, Civil War News and Mars Attacks go for about 50% of the Topps versions. Personally, I like the consistency I have by sticking with "cents" versions though I do have some pence copies.