How to make comics cheaper

[youngelvis56-migration]

I dont know about you, but I think there's only a few comics out there that are really worth the cover price in terms of entertainment value. Those include Y: The Last Man and Loeb/Lee's Batman and some others. I've been collecting for 4 years and thats how I feel. How will new readers and kids become involved in our hobby if prices are so high? $2.99 for 15 or so minutes of entertainment seems like such a ripoff, especially if its for some overhyped stuff like Transformers.

 

I think the only way for comics to grow is to make them cheaper or give readers more value for their money. To make them cheaper, I would use less expensive paper and put a ton of ads in comics. the comic companies keep saying that books are expensive because of the paper and the high quality of the book.. that's [!@#%^&^]. that's like record companies saying cd's are more expensive to make than cassettes because of the "technology." and anyway, most of my favorite stories were printed on cheap paper. DD 181, Batman Year One, 70's Spidermans--these would be great no matter what type of paper was used. What counts is the quality of the story and not the slickness of the packaging. I dont think most comic buyers would mind if cheaper paper was used if it would mean prices could come down a little bit.

[Proverbs22_2]

I was just about to create a thread on this same topic!

 

If the publishers are telling it truthfully, there is no more expensive item in this universe than printable paper. While I am a fan of the better grades of paper (just because they hold up better...), I would have ZERO problems with a reduction in paper quality, and the addition of outside advertising, if it brings the items in at a reasonable price.

 

You know, even as a teen-ager, I was dumbfounded that publishers had the gall to raise prices, citing yet another cost-of-paper increase, while at the SAME TIME, casting off their ad revenue!

 

The truth is, I miss those old ads, offering me a "Seven-foot Monster-Ghost" for one measly dollar, especially with the creepy "skeletal hands" thrown in for FREE!

 

In fact, this puts me in mind of a couple of polls for all us "Old Geezers" that were alive back in those "Old Days":

 

 

 

 

 

-Joe

[Proverbs22_2]

 

 

[Proverbs22_2]

 

Here is my solution:

 

1- Print the comics on Newsprint ( or other acceptable paper), allow outside advertising, and cut the cover-prices in HALF...

 

2- Print the TPBs on Nice Stock, Delete the Advertising, and increase the prices...

 

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

Better paper was introduced at the behest of the collector's market... the only remaining market buying comic books. I'm all for newsprint comics again, except that they would have to switch their entire coloring process back to what it once was to suit the separations required for newsprint (which allows for fewer separations and a less diverse palette of colors), and there goes hundreds of thousands of dollars in work down the drain.

 

Advertising space is available, it's just near impossible to sell. Which is why they end up being filled with ads for in-house product .

 

Advertisers are not lining up to put their promos in comic books as they once did... they have plenty of other outlets to advertise to 18-40 year old males. Why go with a marginal product that, at the most, will reach only 30-150,000 people?

 

And perhaps that also has to do with the way that ads are sold in comics. Instead of advertising in Batman - the industry's biggest seller - the advertizer must have their promos run in all DC Comics that week or that month. Easy to do if you have deep pockets like the dairy industry and their milk ads, but not if you don't want to waste your money by running an ad in Beware the Creeper.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

1- Print the comics on Newsprint ( or other acceptable paper), allow outside advertising, and cut the cover-prices in HALF...

 

2- Print the TPBs on Nice Stock, Delete the Advertising, and increase the prices...

 

You need more catagories in your poll.

 

So your solution to save the industry is to:

(a) make comics less collectible and have a shorter lifespan to make the cover prices cheaper and lower prices so that everyone has to work five times as hard to make a buck (comics are not necessarily more expensive these days because of the paper but because people have to get paid real money to make the things for you to read - whether you like them or not - and the distributors, accountants, and comic store owners have to make some money too)

(b) allow for outside advertising - which is already allowed but not an easy sell

© raise the cover prices on the only area in the industry that is seeing REAL growth - effectively killing tpbs just as the mainstream markets are taking to the product and raving about the successes they are having with them

 

Kev

[Comic_Diva]

I don't have an idea what can be done to make the books cheaper but I have noticed an upward trend in cover pricing. Did anyone notice Ultimate Spiderman 46 is now 2.99? We paid less when the cover stock was better.

[Proverbs22_2]

1- Print the comics on Newsprint ( or other acceptable paper), allow outside advertising, and cut the cover-prices in HALF...

 

2- Print the TPBs on Nice Stock, Delete the Advertising, and increase the prices...

 

You need more catagories in your poll.

 

So your solution to save the industry is to:

(a) make comics less collectible and have a shorter lifespan to make the cover prices cheaper and lower prices so that everyone has to work five times as hard to make a buck (comics are not necessarily more expensive these days because of the paper but because people have to get paid real money to make the things for you to read - whether you like them or not - and the distributors, accountants, and comic store owners have to make some money too)

(b) allow for outside advertising - which is already allowed but not an easy sell

© raise the cover prices on the only area in the industry that is seeing REAL growth - effectively killing tpbs just as the mainstream markets are taking to the product and raving about the successes they are having with them

 

Kev

 

I was hoping that you would weigh in, Kev, as I think you have more expertise in the area of printed products than any of us here...

 

While I'm not shocked to see you disagreeing with me, I think that, in the long run, I'm correct. Allow me to respond to the points that you raised:

 

a) The monthly installments of the Trade Paperbacks (`cause that's what they've become...) would become more collectable. Why? Because at $1.50, they would be a better value for Children.

Think about it: Did you start collecting when you had deep pockets, or when you were a kid spending your allowance? As their money goes further, kids would have the opportunity to pick up more titles, giving the hobby greater exposure across the board, and increasing the number of people who will be reading comics in 10-20 years. If by "less collectable" you mean that they will be more fragile, thus less likely to be sold for a profit on the secondary market, then this point probably goes to you...

 

b) Why is outside advertising a "tough sell"? This is easily fixed, if the goal is just to off-set expenses, rather than to make the ads a major portion of revenue.

 

c) I don't think that most of us that buy TPBs do so because it's a superior value, but instead we do so because it makes reading a serialized story more enjoyable , and it looks better on our bookshelf. The prices on the TPBs would only have to be raised about 25% . The comics, if made cheaper to produce, would still be producing about the same amount of revenue. If the comics produce a net gain of ZERO in dollars, but produce an increase in "New Blood" into the hobby, it would be worth doing, in my humble opinion.

 

Right now, the TPBs are a great horse to ride. My concern is that I don't see any new or better horses on the horizon...

 

Thanks for your point-of-view, Kev. Let's hear from some other folks!

 

-Joe

 

[Kevin Boyd]

I was hoping that you would weigh in, Kev, as I think you have more expertise in the area of printed products than any of us here...

 

I don't know about that, but I have read a lot of material on why comics have lost their markets, have gone up in value (and quality) and have lost their appeal to parents and children.

 

While I'm not shocked to see you disagreeing with me, I think that, in the long run, I'm correct. Allow me to respond to the points that you raised:

 

Stick to your guns! That's the spirit! Let me address your responses:

 

a) The monthly installments of the Trade Paperbacks (`cause that's what they've become...) would become more collectable. Why? Because at $1.50, they would be a better value for Children.

 

Already I disagree. If comics are truly the monthly installments of TPBs, wouldn't it make more sense for the TPBs - that is the end result - to be more cheaper? Do we want a new generation of collectors or readers? Readers are much more flexible IMO.

 

Is a $1.50 more value for 10 minutes of reading time than a $15 tpb (like an Essential Spider-Man volume) which will take them hours to get thru? I think, hands down that the tpb volume is the best value. And they have a LONG shelf life. A cheap monthly comic is off the rack after a month.

 

Think about it: Did you start collecting when you had deep pockets, or when you were a kid spending your allowance? As their money goes further, kids would have the opportunity to pick up more titles, giving the hobby greater exposure across the board, and increasing the number of people who will be reading comics in 10-20 years. If by "less collectable" you mean that they will be more fragile, thus less likely to be sold for a profit on the secondary market, then this point probably goes to you...

 

I started collecting when I was a kid. At first I read my brother's comics, then my parents bought them for me, then I bought them for myself then I was knocking over Liqour stores to finance my weekly fix. But I, like most of us here, got into comics at a time when most, if not all, young people were reading comic books. Other things have filled the void in children's popular culture that the monthly comic book once filled.

 

To go back and fill that void 20+ years after it was abandoned for the collector's market is nearly impossible. The entire industry would have to abandon the adult collector's market which pays for what is published and gear down for children.

 

We have nearly 75 years of comics to fall back on -- why not repackage that surplus of material into a cheaper format - like the Essentials - and start something NEW instead of thinking if we just went back to the way things WERE, everything will be grand again.

 

A new children's comics market COULD be restarted if we were consistant and reliable. Why not start Batman or Superman reprint digests? Archies are still going strong... but Archies don't rely on CONTINUITY like superhero comics do.

 

b) Why is outside advertising a "tough sell"? This is easily fixed, if the goal is just to off-set expenses, rather than to make the ads a major portion of revenue.

 

Advertising makes sense, but it is a tough sell because most companies don't see comics as a viable advertising medium. It is a marginal one with an audience that

is already targetted by advertising elsewhere - like television, video game magazines, entertainment magazines.

 

What's actually needed, is to advertize COMIC BOOKS.... the companies need to let people know that comics are still being published! Maybe DC needs to start placing ads in Disney Adventures, or put television commercials within blocks of children's programming.... but that would cause prices to go up to pay for those ads.

 

c) I don't think that most of us that buy TPBs do so because it's a superior value, but instead we do so because it makes reading a serialized story more enjoyable , and it looks better on our bookshelf. The prices on the TPBs would only have to be raised about 25% . The comics, if made cheaper to produce, would still be producing about the same amount of revenue. If the comics produce a net gain of ZERO in dollars, but produce an increase in "New Blood" into the hobby, it would be worth doing, in my humble opinion.

 

Right now, monthly comics subsidize the cost of tpbs, so you would like the tpb to subsidize the monthly? So the cart should go before the horse?

 

As a person who would prefer to support the collected edition I'm all for it! Release more expensive hardcovers by strong creative teams FIRST and I'll buy them. Then release a moderately priced tpb of the same material. Then it wouldn't bother me in the least if that collected edition was broken into instalments and sold on cheap newsprint comics for a $1 each.

 

Regrettably though, monthly comics pay the salaries for the people making the comics, as well as for the accountants, editors, stockholders, etc. who pay to get them published and hardcovers GNs are still seen as a gamble. The material must PROVE itself first in the marketplace before they can graduate to the general market... (unless it's written by Bill Jemas).

 

Monthly comics are like episodes of tv shows. And the TPB is like the DVD collection of the full season. What would you rather have on your shelf? Episode 1 or Season 1? What are you more likely to pull off your shelf and watch? But if no one watched episode one and then raved about it then there wouldn't be a season 1 box set to buy.

 

Right now, the TPBs are a great horse to ride. My concern is that I don't see any new or better horses on the horizon...

 

So we should throw out the successful horse in favor of the tired old horse that can't compete? We should make new and better horses instead of spending time looking for them.

 

Kev

[lighthouse]

Making comics cheaper won't increase sales.

 

{Warning: Brick and Mortar Storytelling Time}

 

As an experiment, I have twice reduced all comic book prices in my shop. Once for four months in Texas, and once for 6 months in Oregon. I sold ALL the new comics in my shop for 35% off cover price, to everyone, whether they were a subscriber or not. Those $2.25 books were rolled back to $1.46. The $2.99 books were $1.94. It was the equivalent of rolling back prices by a decade.

 

Unit sales rose less than 3% in the Texas experiment, and just under 4% in the Oregon experiment. Not dollar sales, unit sales. My average subscriber added one or two titles to their pull. And the lower prices didn't encourage new customers at all. I had plenty of kids in the shop buying Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic who weren't buying comics, and the cheaper prices did nothing to encourage them or their parents to buy comics.

 

A reduction in cover prices would swiftly kill the entire comic book industry. While it is possible that after a few years of lower prices the unit sales might climb, the publishers would bleed capital at a rate they couldn't sustain. The fixed costs are just too high. And the lower cover prices would cut into the retailer's margins as well. Even if you could cut the prices in half and double the sales volume (which looks like a revenue-neutral change) the additional freight costs would be a tremendous burden. I pay 7.1c per comic in freight charges right now. Cutting cover prices and doubling volume would just double the amount of freight charges I pay on the same sales volume...

 

I've posted this several times before, but I think comics would sell better with higher price points than they have now (and the additional quality to justify those price points). Ultimate Spider-Man would be substantially more profitable for publishers, distributors, and retailers alike if it came out every other month, was twice the size and cost $4.50. And it would be just as easy to sell, if not more so...

[Kevin Boyd]

Just to follow up...

 

If publishers were serious about selling to kids at a cheaper price point, why not simply take the books that have already been published and do more Essential volumes in color....

 

Simpsons comics do well with kids... there's enough material to put out a few phonebook volumes in color on newsprint for a relatively cheap price.

 

The same could be done for Disney Comics. While I fully support Gemstone's revival of Disney comics, let's face it, those books are not selling to kids but to adults who can afford to pay the insane cover prices.

 

Why not take the thousands of pages of Disney comics material that has already been published and start throwing out cheap mass market volumes of Disney material - forget quality - just do quantity for little cost - and see what happens. Even at $15 a volume for a couple hundred pages of comics I think they could do very well.

 

Cerebus has done very well by doing that. And I think Marvel would have a hard time discounting the success of black and white Essentials. It's when people start arguing about the quality and collectibility of the product that costs start to rise and there are production delays.

 

Why do you think that Manga succeeds in Japan? Most are thick and cheap black and white and color volumes mass produced on disposable paper for a reasonable price not flimsy and cheap pamphlets. That's one of the reasons why Manga is succeeding with teenagers here in North America, they get a book of comics for about the same price as a regular pocketbook.

 

Do the same with Ducks or Batman or Spider-Man (not just reprints of the Japanese versions - who wants to read knock-off Japanese Spider-Man and X-Men when North American Spider-Man comics and X-Men comics are infinitely superior) and you might see a LOT of new readers coming in for the regular comics. Take the old stuff and repackage it in a cheap and disposable format.

 

Quesada made a big mistake cancelling the pocket or backpack marvels line before seeing what they could do sales-wise.

 

One only needs to look at the success of Dark Horse's Lone Wolf and Cub volumes in the mini-format to see how successful old material in a new format will do.

 

I'm curious to see if the Elfquest stuff will do OK in the Manga format. Does anyone know off hand the price point on the first volume: Wolfrider?

 

Meanwhile, the collectors market - buyers who care about quality will still purchase the monthly comic books on better quality paper.

 

Kev

[Proverbs22_2]

 

Quote:

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Right now, the TPBs are a great horse to ride. My concern is that I don't see any new or better horses on the horizon...

 

 

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So we should throw out the successful horse in favor of the tired old horse that can't compete? We should make new and better horses instead of spending time looking for them.

 

Kev

I am not advocating the changing of horses, but rather the "genetic engineering" of new horses, co-exsisting with the ones we have now, and hopefully, growing new fans along the way.

Great points in your follow-up as well! Five stars to you, for "Gentlemanly Conduct"!

 

BTW, Thanks to whomever voted me a Genius! Truthfully, I didn't even vote for myself ...

 

-Joe

 

[Proverbs22_2]

What's actually needed, is to advertize COMIC BOOKS.... the companies need to let people know that comics are still being published! Maybe DC needs to start placing ads in Disney Adventures, or put television commercials within blocks of children's programming.... but that would cause prices to go up to pay for those ads.

 

This is actually a fantastic point, Kev...

 

Do you guys remember the old "George Reeves" Superman TV series? They mentioned the comics by name, as the show was going off. More recently, the G.I.Joe Cartoon show made mention of the comic-book.

 

In fact, I distictly remember an actual commercial for that comic, probably subsidized by the Toy Manufacturer...

 

-Joe

[Kevin Boyd]

I do! And on the old Batman tv show and Spider-Man cartoon (60's) there is mention in the credits about the comics that those characters appear in regularly.

 

There isn't enough of that these days.

 

However, it is nice to see the Marvel logo with the flipping panels at the start of their films, and Marvel is trying with bios and interviews with comic book creators on their filme DVDs (the one on Daredevil is exceptional and Miller makes some great points there about "lost" audiences).

 

Warner tv, on the other hand, bends over backwards to avoid the comics. Smallville is Superboy without the costumed heroics, and the recently announced Flash wants to avoid costumes. You'd think that they were embarassed by the four color roots of the characters.

 

I think, in general, that most people aren't even aware that there are dozens of different comic book titles published every week.

 

Kev

 

[aardvark88]

Making comics cheaper won't increase sales.

 

Brick and Mortar Time}

 

Unit sales rose less than 3% in the Texas experiment, and just under 4% in the Oregon experiment. Not dollar sales, unit sales. My average subscriber added one or two titles to their pull. And the lower prices didn't encourage new customers at all. I had plenty of kids in the shop buying Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic who weren't buying comics, and the cheaper prices did nothing to encourage them or their parents to buy comics.

 

A reduction in cover prices would swiftly kill the entire comic book industry. While it is possible that after a few years of lower prices the unit sales might climb, the publishers would bleed capital at a rate they couldn't sustain. The fixed costs are just too high. And the lower cover prices would cut into the retailer's margins as well. Even if you could cut the prices in half and double the sales volume (which looks like a revenue-neutral change) the additional freight costs would be a tremendous burden. ...

 

Similiar to cd prices. The major music studios just dropped their retail list prices for cd's in Canada by up to 30%. They are hoping to ween the teens away from free music downloads/pirating to actually pay for their new cd's. Vancouver, BC already has the lowest cd prices in USA or Canada. Think the music studios will be slitting their collective throats with this pilot project.

[Kevin Boyd]

And it never occurs to the music companies that the product that they are shilling is utter garbage and recycled pap.

 

I haven't bought CDs regularly in years. I think I get, at the most, 5 cds a year, mostly by artists that I know will deliver a solid album... like U2 for example. I never download, I just don't care for what's being offered.... and I won't spend $15-20 on a cd for only one song.

 

Kev

[lighthouse]

The CD situation is a little different. When physical production costs are less than 5% of a retail price, there is certainly some room for price cuts. A $2.50 comic costs the publishers around 50c to print, even on a fairly large print run, so there is far less room to cut prices.

 

I think the price of CD's can come down even a little more than it has. But at some point there has to be a profitable online solution for both the companies and the consumers, and I wouldn't be surprised to see CD's disappear from the brick and mortar marketplace by 2013... And I think DVD's will follow by a few years later... The cost of a typical DVD has dropped from $35 to $15 just in the last 18 months, and if they start pushing the $9.99 threshold it starts to make sense just have folks burn their own at home... You'd need to see increases in connection speeds, but we'll see that as a matter of course.

[Kevin Boyd]

On the other hand, DVD sales are fantastic.Studios are making more money on most DVD releases than they do on the theatrical runs.

 

I buy 3-4 DVDs a week, sometimes more, sometimes less. And I think one of the reasons why they are doing so well with the general public is because the content is a lot better perceived value than for your average pop cd.

 

They are settling down, price-wise, into the price range that was once occupied by VHS tapes.

 

Kev

[aardvark88]

Last week, Futureshop chain in Canada was blowing out brand new, sealed older title DVDs 3 for $15 Canadian funds. Some decent spaghetti westerns like Good, Bad, Ugly.

Lots of ppl collecting previously viewed hot title DVDs at the $9.95 Cdn price point also.

[lighthouse]

About three weeks ago, my local Wal-Mart set up a dump bin with $5.99 DVD's...

 

There's about 700 in that bin, and I have already picked up copies of Wall Street, A Walk in the Clouds, Inventing the Abbotts, Maverick, My Cousin Vinny, and about 20 others... Best buy from the bin was the two-pack of the Max Fleisher (sp?) Superman cartoons from the 40's, two DVD's worth for just $5.99...