Superman ashcan sells for $90,000!!!!!

[JohnT]

 

 

 

[Filter81]

Awefully defensive?

 

Right above what you wrote I said very clearly I was involved in all three sales. You then proceeded to say

 

Matt was given horrible advice.

Matt is a sucker.

 

You wrote: "they are seen as a big sucker to be raped and pillaged and sent hobbling away from the hobby as fast as they can.

 

The main problem is so many of the big dealers, whom they get their advice from, live such hand-to-mouth existences that they`re only interested in a quick big score and to hell with the long-term consequences."

 

Pertaining to a sale that I JUST said I was involved in directly. Defensive? Try pissed off.

 

 

As far as my challenge, I'm assuming you purchased that B&B 28 because you felt at least in part that it was a good investment. Then you said Matt was being given terrible advice, being treated like a sucker, and being "bufu'd". And called the books themselves "toxic waste". The sales prices on these two books are close enough that the comparison is valid.

 

Unless you chose for yourself a worse investment than some sucker being bufu'd and purchasing toxic waste... I don't see why you your book wouldn't win.

[tth2]

As far as my challenge, I'm assuming you purchased that B&B 28 because you felt at least in part that it was a good investment. Then you said Matt was being given terrible advice, being treated like a sucker, and being "bufu'd". And called the books themselves "toxic waste". The sales prices on these two books are close enough that the comparison is valid.

 

Unless you chose for yourself a worse investment than some sucker being bufu'd and purchasing toxic waste... I don't see why you your book wouldn't win.

The true test then is not how many collectors today would take which one, because the public is usually wrong and I have done very well as an investor by betting against the crowd.

 

The true test is to take a look in 10 years and see which one has performed better. Of course, I`m at a disadvantage here since you know what I paid for my book but I have no idea what Matt paid for his.

 

If you really want a true test, how about you get Matt to disclose how much he spent on the Supes 1, Tec 27 and Ashcan in total, and then I can take an equal amount and apply it against actual sales prices that happen over the next 6 months, and we`ll see which "portfolio" is worth more in 5 years and 10 years?

 

Anyways, I`m done with this thread. It was not my intention to take shots at you, so I apologize if you interpreted my comments that way. My comments were more in the line of "Aw geez, here we go again" and meant to express my general unhappiness with how newbies with money in the hobby generally get treated.

[Filter81]

Again TTH, It would be nice if you knew what you were talking about before attacking someone.

 

The very first book I steered Matt towards when I first met him was the Mile High Superman 1. That deal fell through, and I much later sold him my Superman 1 instead.

 

When I helped him purchase a Detective 27 we worked out a deal for the best copy available at that moment. Matt wasn't looking for a book that could possibly be purchased in nine months from now. When actually looking to purchase a book you don't get to deal with hypotheticals, or books that "would have been for sale" if only we'd started looking a month earlier. You deal with the books that are available.

 

If we HAD been faced with a decision regarding purchasing a high grade unrestored or a high grade restored Detective 27, that would have been a different situation than the one we were in. Had that situation arisen, I don't know which way I would've advised him.

 

You assume Matt intends to own these books for the next 20 years. What if I were to tell you he only plans to own them for the next 18 months?

 

When CGC started, the value of restored books got hammered.. and its still recovering. Five years ago, restored 7.5 Superman 1s were selling for $10k and under. (I know. I bought four of them at that price) Today they are selling for $30k-$35k. Thats a 300% increase in five years. Pretty terrible investment, huh? Looking at a similarly priced unrestored Superman 1, GPA has Sup 1s in 2.0 going from $19k to $23500k from 2004 to 2006. So you tell me which the better investment was during that time period. You sure you want to make a blanket statement that says in every situation for every book both short term and long term unrestored will always make the better investment?

 

We're not talking about a hypothetical "what will be the best investment strategy over the next 30 years?" here. We're talking about an actual situation that you know nothing about, where I feel Matt was advised very well.

[Filter81]

 

The true test is to take a look in 10 years and see which one has performed better. Of course, I`m at a disadvantage here since you know what I paid for my book but I have no idea what Matt paid for his.

 

If you really want a true test, how about you get Matt to disclose how much he spent on the Supes 1, Tec 27 and Ashcan in total, and then I can take an equal amount and apply it against actual sales prices that happen over the next 6 months, and we`ll see which "portfolio" is worth more in 5 years and 10 years?

 

Anyways, I`m done with this thread. It was not my intention to take shots at you, so I apologize if you interpreted my comments that way. My comments were more in the line of "Aw geez, here we go again" and meant to express my general unhappiness with how newbies with money in the hobby generally get treated.

 

Within less than two weeks of owning the Ashcan Matt received an offer of almost twice what he paid. Does that count towards your true test?

 

As far as how I "interpreted" your comments... you wrote:

 

"That`s what frustrates me. It seems like every time someone with decent money tries to come into the hobby, instead of getting good advice that would give them a good impression of the hobby and get them to spread the word to their other big money buddies (this guy is a sports agent, and knows lots of ballplayers who have big money), they are seen as a big sucker to be raped and pillaged and sent hobbling away from the hobby as fast as they can.

 

The main problem is so many of the big dealers, whom they get their advice from, live such hand-to-mouth existences that they`re only interested in a quick big score and to hell with the long-term consequences."

 

You even mentioned he's a sports agent. That wasn't a hypothetical, that was a cheap, rude, incorrect, and undeserved cheap shot at me and at Matt from someone who doesn't know a damn thing about what he's talking about and who is unwilling to back up a single thing he says. So go ahead, be done with this thread. And take pot-shots at someone else.

[Filter81]

 

The true test then is not how many collectors today would take which one, because the public is usually wrong and I have done very well as an investor by betting against the crowd.

 

Just out of curiosity, but if anyone else does this.. they are a sucker being "bufu'd" and purchasing toxic waste right? Because only you are educated enough at this to bet against the crowd? Everyone else should listen to everything the crowd says, correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[codfish]

Filter81,

 

You pretty much have struck on something I was discussing with a friend tonight. There are people out there that basically buy within their means not only cash-wise but based on what is available. I know there are many people out there with very bad opinions about restoration but it is something that is needed in this hobby because paper is simply not something that is going to last.

 

The problem is that too long people have used it not to preserve a book so much as to make a book more appealing for a sale. Now we are in times where the whole definitions of just what is and what isn't restoration is being redefined and many people are seeing this as yet another way for people to make money and not simply to save a book from destruction.

 

When a collector or investor is out there looking for a specific book at a specific time they want to usually buy the best book for their money. If that book shows up they want to know all they can about the book. If they can live with the defects, restoration or whatever and the price is right they will buy it. If they cannot then they won't. What is important though is not restored or unrestored but having the information with which to make a satisfactory decision.

 

Your point about the price change in restored Superman #1's pretty much confirms that the more people know the more confidence they will have and the market will grow. Lets face it there are not alot any books from the GA and early SA so demand would say that regardless of whether a book is restored or not the market will grow. There is actually a good chance that restored books, at least key issues, could have even better investment potential because they are seen as more affordable than their unrestored counterparts. More people can probably afford them, too, so the market could be even bigger than imagined. Clearly their is a market for them so they are hardly "toxic waste". If one person is willing to buy there are likely other willing to do the same.

 

Anyway, congrats on the great sales! To me it sounds like you did your very best to secure a happy customer ... the sales figures certainly support that.

[Aman619]

Filter you made a great defense. Sorry you were ruffled by the discussion here. But, you investement portion rests squarely on an unrepeatable phenomenon. PLODS were hit bad and recovered nicely, but doyou foresee another tripling of PLOD keys going forward? I see your purchases as fortuitous and akin to Tims investment plans at the same time period.

 

But today? Im all for unrestored for the client who can afford the best there is. 18 months or 18 years thats the way to go, absent a short term phenomena as PLODS went through and recovered from. And Id also advise waiting for th eright opportunity, not choosing impatiently from only whats out there now.

 

[Timely]

There is no middle position. If he bought an unrestored 7.5 Superman 1 and unrestored 8.5 Detective 27, I`d congratulate him for entering the hobby in the right way, getting good advice and making great decisions.

 

If he bought restored copies of the same books, he made a terrible decision and got terrible advice (I`m assuming he didn`t get them for bargain basement prices). For the cash he probably had to splash out to get those pieces of PLOD toxic waste plus the ashcan, he could`ve acquired some fantastic big ticket high grade unrestored GA keys.

 

IMO, I have to disagree with you on this. There is nothing wrong with buying restored books, as long as you know what you are getting. In fact, with restored books seeming selling at record lows over the past few years now seems to be the time to buy before they increase, especially slight and moderately restored copies.

 

West

[Ivanko]

There is no middle position. If he bought an unrestored 7.5 Superman 1 and unrestored 8.5 Detective 27, I`d congratulate him for entering the hobby in the right way, getting good advice and making great decisions.

 

If he bought restored copies of the same books, he made a terrible decision and got terrible advice (I`m assuming he didn`t get them for bargain basement prices). For the cash he probably had to splash out to get those pieces of PLOD toxic waste plus the ashcan, he could`ve acquired some fantastic big ticket high grade unrestored GA keys.

 

IMO, I have to disagree with you on this. There is nothing wrong with buying restored books, as long as you know what you are getting. In fact, with restored books seeming selling at record lows over the past few years now seems to be the time to buy before they increase, especially slight and moderately restored copies.

 

West

 

ESPECIALLY so with GA keys.

[metropoliscomics]

There is no middle position. If he bought an unrestored 7.5 Superman 1 and unrestored 8.5 Detective 27, I`d congratulate him for entering the hobby in the right way, getting good advice and making great decisions.

 

If he bought restored copies of the same books, he made a terrible decision and got terrible advice (I`m assuming he didn`t get them for bargain basement prices). For the cash he probably had to splash out to get those pieces of PLOD toxic waste plus the ashcan, he could`ve acquired some fantastic big ticket high grade unrestored GA keys.

 

IMO, I have to disagree with you on this. There is nothing wrong with buying restored books, as long as you know what you are getting. In fact, with restored books seeming selling at record lows over the past few years now seems to be the time to buy before they increase, especially slight and moderately restored copies.

 

West

 

I agree with West. Restored books are OK as long as they are priced a fair market value. I would draw the line with CGC Extensive Restoration. Books with this level of restoration are just an illusion. Sure the book might look nice but that is just a function of how much restoration went into creating that appearance. I would see a CGC Fine Sup #1 with Ext .R and a VF Sup #1 Ext R. as pretty much the same book.

 

S

[TheWatcher]

So given a client with a fairly big budget who seems to want to buy the best of the best, why steer him into PLODs? Instead of a PLOD 8.5 Detective 27, why not steer him into buying the unrestored 6.5 copy that was on sale recently?

 

 

It's diffrent for GA keys, especially these two. There are so few unrestored copies of these two books that chances are the only ones readily available will be restored. And the unrestored copies are buried in collections and not budging any time soon. Like others have stated, it's the level of restoration that's the key. If you can get a (preferably) slightly or (dependent on work done) moderately restored book, then consider that a success. Also depends on what you pay, of course.

[Filter81]

Aman,

 

I have no problem with the discussion. If people want to talk about the Merits of Ashcans, or the advantages/disadvantages of restored vs unrestored books... well... this is a comic book mesage board after all and everyone has a right to their opinion. It was when one individual began to personally attack me for absolutely no reason without any knowledge of what it was he was talking about that I got upset last night.

 

As far as debating restored v unrestored, thats actually a topic that anyone who knows me well knows that I enjoy discussing. (And one of the first things I told Matt when we started talking was that I personally think there is still an investment opportunity when it comes to restored books. But to be prepared, because there are a number of people in this hobby that will never purchase a restored book under any circumstances. Fortunately it doesn't take a 100% market consensus for a book to sell.. it only takes one buyer.

 

I agree with you that restored books are not likely to triple in value in the next five years again. That was almost certainly a one-time thing. Where I disagree is your assumption that PLODs have already fully recovered. I think they still have a ways to go. (Remember, at one point restored books almost sold at prices even to unrestored books. These 20%, 25%, 30%, 35% numbers we use to determine the value of restored books are all arbitrary.

 

Books with one dot of color touch in a purple label are still selling for sometimes 35%-40% of unrestored book value. (Should one dot of color touch invisible to the naked eye in a corner somewhere really drop the value of a book by more than 50%? As opposed to say 15%-25% which to me sounds more reasonable to me)

 

On the other end of the spectrum, Extensively restored books are selling for 20%-30% of guide. In some cases this seems about right to me. But what about on the major keys where unrestored copies are selling for 2x or 3x guide value? (This means that even if a restored book is selling for 25%-30% of guide value, if may still only be currently selling at 10% or less of unrestored market value. To me this still seems too low.

 

Or, lets take for instance (since it was mentioned up above), a restored Detective 27 in 8.5. Aside from the Allentown copy (which will likely never be for sale) I don't know of any unrestored Detective 27s anywhere in high grade. So putting aside the fact that there are no mid grade unrestored Detective 27s currently available.... there may NEVER be a High grade unrestored Detective 27 available for sale. In a case like that... I feel a restored 8.5 detective 27 has some additional appeal. Because believe it or not... there are some people out there who only like to collect high grade. (And when unrestored high grade copies of a book are not available, they will turn to a restored copy when they otherwise might not buy restored books)

 

I'm certainly not trying to push this opinion on anyone, but I personally believe that the right restored books purchased at the right price can still make excellent investments. And in Some cases.. actually make better investments than unrestored books at the moment.

[Filter81]

 

I agree with West. Restored books are OK as long as they are priced a fair market value. I would draw the line with CGC Extensive Restoration. Books with this level of restoration are just an illusion. Sure the book might look nice but that is just a function of how much restoration went into creating that appearance. I would see a CGC Fine Sup #1 with Ext .R and a VF Sup #1 Ext R. as pretty much the same book.

 

S

 

Stephen,

 

This is great news! I assume that later today your website will be updated so that all the extensively restored VFs on your site will be repriced at restored Fn prices? Please let me know when this happens, as I am currently looking to purchase some books for my collection.

 

By the way, any luck getting a scan of that Ashcan?

 

Thanks!

[Foolkiller]

I agree with the underlying point which is that restored books are, especially with slight (P) or even slight (A) resto are undervalued books in the market place right now.

 

To me, buying a restored Tec 27 or Action 1 (especially if, as Steve Fishler points out, not extensive) then I think they are good, solid long term investments. To me, Tec 27 and Action 1 transcend our hobby. The same can be said for Amazing Fantasy 15. Brave and the Bold 28 does not have that status, nor does FF 1. Batman, Superman and Spider Man are such cultural icons that people are interested in their first appearances as historical finds.

 

If you know what you are buying (unlike the Tec 27 now in question) and you pay a fair market value for these books, then I think it will be a good investment down the road.

[Filter81]

To me, Tec 27 and Action 1 transcend our hobby.

 

I couldn't agree more on this. I believe it has reached a point where you don't have to be a comic collector to want to own the first appearance of Superman or Batman. Which basically means more demand but still a limited supply. I think right now any Action 1 or Detective 27 (whether its high grade, low grade, restored, or unrestored) has the potential to be a great investment as long as they are purchased at the right price and with full disclosure.

 

 

 

 

[sacentaur]

Restored books are OK as long as they are priced at fair market value and the seller engages in full disclosure.

 

S

 

Fixed that for you-

 

[sacentaur]

I've gotten to know Matt really well over the past month or so. And while it is true that he has a lot of money to spend, he is a very smart guy!

 

Adam, Matt is in very good hands dealing with you.... but please make sure he is aware of the Nic Cage scenario; I'd hate to see yet another big money collector/investor fall victim to ___________________.

 

[metropoliscomics]

I've gotten to know Matt really well over the past month or so. And while it is true that he has a lot of money to spend, he is a very smart guy!

 

Adam, Matt is in very good hands dealing with you.... but please make sure he is aware of the Nic Cage scenario; I'd hate to see yet another big money collector/investor fall victim to ___________________.

 

You mean the Nic Cage scenario where he was supplied with a letter for each individual book he bought. A letter that stated if a book was unrestored or restored and gave details of what that restoration was. You mean that scenario?

 

Would anyone like to view the letters? I have the copies.

 

S

[Aman619]

I agree with the underlying point which is that restored books are, especially with slight (P) or even slight (A) resto are undervalued books in the market place right now.

 

To me, buying a restored Tec 27 or Action 1 (especially if, as Steve Fishler points out, not extensive) then I think they are good, solid long term investments. To me, Tec 27 and Action 1 transcend our hobby. The same can be said for Amazing Fantasy 15. Brave and the Bold 28 does not have that status, nor does FF 1. Batman, Superman and Spider Man are such cultural icons that people are interested in their first appearances as historical finds.

 

If you know what you are buying (unlike the Tec 27 now in question) and you pay a fair market value for these books, then I think it will be a good investment down the road.

 

right. Given the sentiments for and against buying restored copies of important and scarce GA key books, all of this boils down to two pieces of important data:

 

what level of restoration the Action and Tec had that he bought. and

what were the purchase prices.

 

With that info all of us can judge for ourselves the merits of the deal going forward. But of course I dont expect the info, nor is it any of our business unless its offerred.

 

But yes, bottom line, I agree, taking the level of resto and price paid into consideration, buying expensive restored Action 1s and Tec 27s CAN have an upside. Equal to a HG unrestored copy? no. But not exactly like throwing cash down a dark black hole.