"First" Archie on ebay but possiblly "Restored"? GASP

[bluechip]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260170263311&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

 

 

The link above is to a copy of Jackpot 4 and sums up a few things wrong with the hobby. It is somewhat deceptive in that, although it mentions Pep 22 (pointing a "savvy collector" toward the guide), it also says this is the first appearance of Archie. Which it isn't.

 

But what else is wrong is that despite the deceptive description it will probably still go for less than its worth because on the one hand people who check the guide will see it is listed ridiculously low and assume that it's not worth more. Those who know it's worth more will avoid it because of the "restoration" -- which is also silly because the repaired cracks are still visible, so it's not like anything's hidden. And anybody who buys it will feel the underbidder didn't knnow what they were doing.

 

In all this sums up a lot of what's wrong with the hobby and you see one or more things going on in a lot of listings. Wrong guide prices, wrong designation of "restored," and dealer description that deceives.

 

 

[The Black Hand ®]

I would avoid it because it's overgraded, too. He calls it a f/vf. The books a vg/vg+ at best. The spine is bad, the corners are rounded and the pages look to be cream at best.Would CGC grade this a f/vf? Anyway, thanks to Shield and his meticulous research, we know the order of Archie's first four appearances. Pep 22,23,24 and Jackpot 4. I get so tired of people trying to hype Jackpot four as Archie's first appearance. If you wanna stretch the truth, it's his first appearance in Jackpot.

What makes this even more bothersome is that Jackpot four is a great book on it's own. It has a cool cover, it has the first image (albeit a tiny circle head) of Archie on a cover (I consider Pep 36 to be the first true full size action image)and all the stories in the book are first rate. So this book would have had a decent shot even if it was marketed correctly. I'm sure the seller can always say that by first appearance he meant first cover image or first in Jackpot. But the overgrading is what really gets me.

[Ivanko]

Buying smart is an education process.

 

There will always be people willing to mislead others in order to make a sale; not just comics but cars, homes, watches, etc.

 

I wouldn't say it's isolated with our hobby, but the world in general.

[Ze-man]

Is this the perfect auction listing?.. by all means no. The book is indeed over graded and is somewhat mislabeled/misleading as the "First" Archie .

 

But the restoration was disclosed( and one is free to write the seller and ask specifics if they want details if the dealer even knows aside from the tear seals), the scans are large and they even mention PEP #22 in their auction description for people to connect whatever dots they feel free to connect, and bid accordingly.

 

I think this books is selling for exactly what it is worth. $350-500 depending on ones acceptance of restored books. Because it IS a great book in it's own right as TBH already pointed out.

 

I can understand and respect peoples frustration over keyword spamming and such, but I dont really think this is the poster child auction of whats wrong with our hobby or the world for that matter.

 

Ze-

[Shield]

I might go after this book, if the price is right. I bought a lightly restored VF copy back in 02 from Motor City comics that I loved. I sold it though, and wouldn't mind another copy. This book was on the stands just after Pep 24 - roughly 12/22/41. Pep 24 was on the stands the week prior.

 

So, it's tied for the 4th Archie appearance with Pep 25, after Pep 22-24. From all the research and arrival dates I've seen, I'd say if you had a time machine you could buy the following:

 

09/23/41 - Jackpot 3

10/17/41 - Pep 22

11/17/41 - Pep 23

12/17/41 - Pep 24

12/22/41 - Jackpot 4

 

If anyone has a time machine and would be willing to take me to these 5 dates in history, I can scrape up the .50 to buy these books. Let's go to Germany first around 03/33; I have a bullet I'd love to fire at der fuhrer.

[G.A.tor]

I might go after this book, if the price is right. I bought a lightly restored VF copy back in 02 from Motor City comics that I loved. I sold it though, and wouldn't mind another copy. This book was on the stands just after Pep 24 - roughly 12/22/41. Pep 24 was on the stands the week prior.

 

So, it's tied for the 4th Archie appearance with Pep 25, after Pep 22-24. From all the research and arrival dates I've seen, I'd say if you had a time machine you could buy the following:

 

09/23/41 - Jackpot 3

10/17/41 - Pep 22

11/17/41 - Pep 23

12/17/41 - Pep 24

12/22/41 - Jackpot 4

 

If anyone has a time machine and would be willing to take me to these 5 dates in history, I can scrape up the .50 to buy these books. Let's go to Germany first around 03/33; I have a bullet I'd love to fire at der fuhrer.

great info...

gator

[Straw-Man]

Let's go to Germany first around 03/33; I have a bullet I'd love to fire at der fuhrer.

 

man, wouldn't that have made a great schomburg cover!

[G.A.tor]

Let's go to Germany first around 03/33; I have a bullet I'd love to fire at der fuhrer.

 

man, wouldn't that have made a great schomburg cover!

[shiverbones]

of course though, if you killed hitler, there would likely be no pep & jackpot books to buy when you got to 1941...

[Shield]

of course though, if you killed hitler, there would likely be no pep & jackpot books to buy when you got to 1941...

 

Good point. However, I think like 53 million people died because of WWII, and I don't own a Pep 22 or Jackpot 4 anyway, so ....

[shiverbones]

well of course I don't think it's more imporant to let him live for funnybooks sake, just that part of the point of that post was to go back in time & buy them.

[The Black Hand ®]

of course though, if you killed hitler, there would likely be no pep & jackpot books to buy when you got to 1941...

 

Good point. However, I think like 53 million people died because of WWII, and I don't own a Pep 22 or Jackpot 4 anyway, so ....

 

How many times do I have to tell you not to mess with time. Who knows what type of dictator might have emerged in his place. Maybe one who might have decided not to invade Russia in the winter. Maybe one with brains as well as charisma.

Myself, I'd settle for going back to about a week before the Church's contacted Chuck.With a moving truck and a wad of cash.

[mr.schomburg]

So I emailed the seller via message ebay, and gave him my thoughts as to the first appearance of Archie, and also politely told him the book looked far from a F/VF, and more like a VG/VG+, very politely.

 

This is the response, nice enough guy...dropped Jerry B's name and claimed to have the Penn copies of the Archie runs. I can understand his feelings on the timeline, but the grade astounds me. With out further rambling, his response:

 

"Hello Paul,

Thanks much for taking the time to write. I believe that hearing other's opinion's are always important.

The book is a solid restored fn/vf. It's tight and the page quality is wonderful. As far as the dating, it is my opinion that Pep 22 was indeed on the stands when Jackpot 4 hit. As a serious collector of Golden Age MLJ's, (we still have the nm/m runs of the Western PA copies, including the Pep 22, 23 and Jackpot 4 and Archie 1) I remember fondly my conversation with Jerry Bails about these two comics and the dates that they were on the stands. While I was not old enough to be on the newsstands in 1941 and make the call myself, the opinion of Jerry means the world to me. He was one of the best guys in our hobby.

Thanks again, it is appreciated."

 

 

Just thought this interesting to share.

Paul

[Shield]

So I emailed the seller via message ebay, and gave him my thoughts as to the first appearance of Archie, and also politely told him the book looked far from a F/VF, and more like a VG/VG+, very politely.

 

This is the response, nice enough guy...dropped Jerry B's name and claimed to have the Penn copies of the Archie runs. I can understand his feelings on the timeline, but the grade astounds me. With out further rambling, his response:

 

"Hello Paul,

Thanks much for taking the time to write. I believe that hearing other's opinion's are always important.

The book is a solid restored fn/vf. It's tight and the page quality is wonderful. As far as the dating, it is my opinion that Pep 22 was indeed on the stands when Jackpot 4 hit. As a serious collector of Golden Age MLJ's, (we still have the nm/m runs of the Western PA copies, including the Pep 22, 23 and Jackpot 4 and Archie 1) I remember fondly my conversation with Jerry Bails about these two comics and the dates that they were on the stands. While I was not old enough to be on the newsstands in 1941 and make the call myself, the opinion of Jerry means the world to me. He was one of the best guys in our hobby.

Thanks again, it is appreciated."

 

 

Just thought this interesting to share.

Paul

 

Well, here's some scans of books with arrival dates that I have - feel free to decide for yourself. I have every single MLJ book scanned, and I'm aware of the house ads that are in each book. I need to revise my arrival date of Jackpot #4 to 12/19/41, so it's basically tied with Pep 24:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shield]

Oh, and here's another Jackpot 3 (arrival date 09/26) that I owned, which is why I felt it came out slightly after the Pep issues (this would've been out about a week after Pep 21).

 

Shawn

 

[Shield]

Oh, and here's another Jackpot 3 (Quarterly book) (arrival date 09/26) that I owned, which is why I felt it came out slightly after the Pep issues (this would've been out about a week after Pep 21).

 

Shawn

 

 

 

Here's a Pep 21 (monthly book) with an arrival date of 09/16 or 09/6

 

[Bronty]

Well if the seller knew Bails decades ago maybe he's still using decades-ago grading too. Seriously.

[143ksk]

At this point, I really don't think there's any question that Jackpot 4, although the first cover appearance of Archie, is his 3rd appearance overall (tied with Pep 24). Great research Shield (thumbs u

[Shield]

At this point, I really don't think there's any question that Jackpot 4, although the first cover appearance of Archie, is his 3rd appearance overall (tied with Pep 24). Great research Shield (thumbs u

 

Thanks man. If I get time today I'll post a summary of what house ads were in each book (like Jackpot 4 has ads for the March 1942 books, like Top-Notch #25). Since I probably should do some work for my employer at some point, it might not be today.

 

I decided to pass on that Jackpot #4 on ebay - I'd rather spend a bit more and get a better copy.

[bluechip]

At this point, I really don't think there's any question that Jackpot 4, although the first cover appearance of Archie, is his 3rd appearance overall (tied with Pep 24). Great research Shield (thumbs u

 

Wow. All this is more than I ever knew. I remember comparing the look of Archie in the early Peps compared to Jackpot 4, and if memory serves Archie was reaaaaly young in Pep 22 and almost as young in Pep 23 and Jackpot 4, then seemed to get a bit older in Pep 24. But I don't have them accessible right now so I can't verify.

 

It is worth mentioning that the cover image of Archie is adapted from tshe Pep 22 story and it says new feature on the front, so it's possib;le it was planned as the first appearance then they liked it so much they moved it up to Pep 22. They ran some of these early stories out of order, as I seem to recall (again if memory serves) that after Veronica appeared in Pep 26 she disappeared again a couple times before returning permanently