Which grading subcategories are worth assigning a value to?

[fantastic_four]

CGC assigns one overall grade, and they also assign a grade to one subcategory of the main grade--page whiteness. The Beyonder has been promoting a "Quality of Production" subcategory as a useful one to assign a grade to. My question here is--for books that are worth it for both a buyer and a seller to describe in as much detail as possible, are there other subcategories that you think a grader should assign values to?

 

Before you answer, consider the subcategories used by the following companies:

 

Pop Culture Certified subcategories: (sample at http://www.popculturecertified.com/SAMPLE/000001.html )

 

• Initial overall look of the comic book, front and back covers
• Check Cover tightness, corners check
• Inspected cover, binding tightness, tears
• Centering, overall manufacturer production
• Inspect for Folds, bending, creases, including subscription creases
• Check for Markings or Wear on Cover
• Check for Markings on Inside
• Page Count, page completeness check
• Suppleness/Brittleness check - cover
• Suppleness/Brittleness check - internal pages

NewKadia subcategories (sample at http://newkadia.safeshopper.com/images/bq0jplx8.gif )

• Free of tears at staple?
• Inside pages
• Flat
• Cover free of tears
• Cover corners sharply cut
• Cover colors reflect
• Cover clean

Also, to get more of a feel for the probability that more grading subcategories could--or at least should--be a part of the future of comics grading, check out this baseball card that DiceX posted as an example of how card grading has gone in this direction:

So, taking these as an example...which subcategories would you add to the current popular standard of presenting overall grade and page whiteness? I think there are several subcategories that should be added, but I haven't figured out what the most general, succinct ones should be yet. There's only one major subcategory I feel strongly should be added, of which page whiteness is only a part--a grade for the entire interior, not just the page preservation.

[ubiquiti]

CGC assigns one overall grade, and they also assign a grade to one subcategory of the main grade--page whiteness. The Beyonder has been promoting a "Quality of Production" subcategory as a useful one to assign a grade to. My question here is--for books that are worth it for both a buyer and a seller to describe in as much detail as possible, are there other subcategories that you think a grader should assign values to?

 

Before you answer, consider the subcategories used by the following companies:

 

Pop Culture Certified subcategories: (sample at http://www.popculturecertified.com/SAMPLE/000001.html )

 

• Initial overall look of the comic book, front and back covers
• Check Cover tightness, corners check
• Inspected cover, binding tightness, tears
• Centering, overall manufacturer production
• Inspect for Folds, bending, creases, including subscription creases
• Check for Markings or Wear on Cover
• Check for Markings on Inside
• Page Count, page completeness check
• Suppleness/Brittleness check - cover
• Suppleness/Brittleness check - internal pages

NewKadia subcategories (sample at http://newkadia.safeshopper.com/images/bq0jplx8.gif )

• Free of tears at staple?
• Inside pages
• Flat
• Cover free of tears
• Cover corners sharply cut
• Cover colors reflect
• Cover clean

Also, to get more of a feel for the probability that more grading subcategories could very well be a part of the future of comics grading, check out this baseball card that DiceX posted as an example of how card grading has gone in this direction:

So, taking these as an example...which subcategories would you add to the current popular standard of presenting overall grade and page whiteness? I think there are several subcategories that should be added, but I haven't figured out what the most general, succinct ones should be yet. There's only one major subcategory I feel strongly should be added, of which page whiteness is only a part--a grade for the entire interior, not just the page preservation.

Edge check...

I know that's not really a category...But grading like the 2 examples you cited...and many, MANY sellers on ebay tends to focus way too much on the corners and not enough on the edges. I have gotten many comics on eBay with nice, sharp corners, but with dings, bumps, chips, bow creases, etc on the edges..

It just seems to be largely overlooked, and is really just as important as the corners or the spine.

[drbanner]

Centering (fold, staple placement)

Cut (is the book the right size? Square?)

Writing (date stamps, arrival dates, prices, etc.,.)

Color/Gloss

Cover grade

Interior grade

Page whiteness

 

Obviously, as you pointed out, the catch is that this level of detail should be done "for books that are worth it". The benefits of (documenting) multi-tiered grading aren't realistic for inexpensive books...

[fantastic_four]

Centering (fold, staple placement)

Cut (is the book the right size? Square?)

 

To save time, do you think those two could be rolled up into Beyonder's more generic QP designation? And...how would you assign a grade to those subcategories? Letter? Number--and if so, how many numbers?

 

 

Writing (date stamps, arrival dates, prices, etc.,.)

 

Wouldn't this fall under either cover or interior grade, depending upon where the marks were? And if you assigned a grade just to writing, how would you do it? 0.5 to 10.0 scale or something else?

 

 

Color/Gloss

 

Wouldn't this be a part of the cover grade?

 

 

 

Interior grade

Page whiteness

 

Isn't page whiteness a part of the interior grade, or is interior grade everything except the whiteness?

 

These questions of how specific the subcategories should get is the main reason I'm still uncertain as to what they should be.

[drbanner]

The answer to all these questions depends on the degree of resolution you want. Realistically:

 

- Centering (fold, staple placement)

- Cut (is the book the right size? Square?)

 

To save time, do you think those two could be rolled up into Beyonder's more generic QP designation? And...how would you assign a grade to those subcategories? Letter? Number--and if so, how many numbers?

 

Yes, you could roll centering/cut into one QP/Eye Appeal "grade". As for how many degrees of resolution...4?

 

- Writing (date stamps, arrival dates, prices, etc.,.)

 

Wouldn't this fall under either cover or interior grade, depending upon where the marks were? And if you assigned a grade just to writing, how would you do it? 0.5 to 10.0 scale or something else?

 

Writing - my thinking is that a NM book with a date stamp/arrival date/Joe Blow written on the cover should somehow be graded as a NM book with a date stamp/arrival date/Joe Blow written on the cover, and not graded as a NM-. So your options are a distinct grade for writing (4 degrees?, or some type of method to differentiate between date stamps/arrival dates and other writing), or roll it into the QP/Eye Appeal grade above.

 

- Color/Gloss

 

Wouldn't this be a part of the cover grade?

 

 

Color/gloss could be rolled into the cover grade (and I saw your other post and agree it would be difficult to compare/quantify), or the QP/Eye Appeal grade. I've personally bought multiple/unread copies of 70's books with different cover colors on the same book, notably blue/purple DC covered books like Batman 251 and several of the House of Mystery 100 pagers, so color quality varies within a run. It's not just a matter of books starting out the same and color fading over time dependent on storage conditions, so it's a tough one to quantify/qualify.

 

- Interior grade

- Page whiteness

 

Isn't page whiteness a part of the interior grade, or is interior grade everything except the whiteness?

 

The latter...one grade for "structure" and a separate indicator of "page quality".

 

If CGC's reading this (and I'm guessing someone is), I'm sure they're laughing (or shaking their heads) at the amount of work it would take to break the grade into just 4 separate values. To make it workable, you have to make it realistic...

[RandomSidekick001-migratio]

Kind of a tangent, but how many of these third-party grading companies are there anyway, and do any of them come close to CGC in terms of recognition and "authority"? If not, is it because CGC has a better grading system and/or more endorsements by big-name people in the industry, etc., or is it just a question of better marketing and a longer track-record?

 

- SK

[drbanner]

I believe as of today there are 2 others - CGG and 3PG, but CGC borrows a note from hammer and says to the wannabes "Can't touch this!" They're established and accepted...

[fantastic_four]

If CGC's reading this (and I'm guessing someone is), I'm sure they're laughing (or shaking their heads) at the amount of work it would take to break the grade into just 4 separate values. To make it workable, you have to make it realistic...

 

Increased grading time is the #1 problem with any further resolution in grading beyond overall condition, but I tend to think that graders already make mental notes as to the condition of parts of the big picture of grade, it's just that they don't have a standard grading scale for each subcategory or a standard set of guidelines for assigning grades to those subcategories. However, I think that if you standardize the subcategories, devise scales for them, and develop very well-defined guidelines for assigning grades to the subcategories for all of the most common defect types and severities, then the time in crease in grading any one book wouldn't be any greater than 30 seconds, and possibly less--assuming the grader understands the system and assuming that the system is well-designed.

 

Step one is coming up with the subcategories. I'll think about yours for a few days and post specific opinions later.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Color/gloss could be rolled into the cover grade (and I saw your other post and agree it would be difficult to compare/quantify), or the QP/Eye Appeal grade. I've personally bought multiple/unread copies of 70's books with different cover colors on the same book, notably blue/purple DC covered books like Batman 251 and several of the House of Mystery 100 pagers, so color quality varies within a run. It's not just a matter of books starting out the same and color fading over time dependent on storage conditions, so it's a tough one to quantify/qualify.

 

 

(the book on the right isn't faded......)

[drbanner]

Ever seen this FF? From the 23rd Edition of the OS Price Guide (1993) - "...the first ever 100 point scale...Grading is now a science and no longer an "eye of the beholder" art." A 24 - point checklist with separate "manufacturing defects" and "post-manufacturing defects". Note the separate resto checklist. Looks like what you're thinking grading will gravitate towards, but I wonder why it was abandoned?

 

PCE also had on-line sales data with grades, asking prices, bid prices, etc.,. Ahead of their time?

 

[fantastic_four]

I did take note of Roter pitching CGSA on his web site a few years ago but didn't realize he was advertising himself as a grading and restoration detection service so much earlier than CGC did. That grading certificate looks interesting...I think I'll try to blow it up from my copy of the guide so I can see the grading categories, or just ask Rob about it directly.

 

As to why it didn't catch on...I can think of half a dozen reasons that I don't want to publicly speculate about, but I may ask him why he thinks it didn't go further.

[THE_BEYONDER]

off-center cut.......

 

spine roll (less than) 1/8.....

 

[fantastic_four]

Click here for a clearer image of the PCE grading certificate

 

One reason I don't mind putting forth as to why it didn't "catch on" is because he may have wanted to keep it ownership of the system for himself...I only thought of that after I noticed the copyright notice at the bottom of the page.

[sfilosa]

I'll tell you why it didn't catch on.

 

Because I bought several Pedigree books (including White Mountain, Gaines and Circle Eight, etc.) from him. All were in some form of NM on his grading scale. I would say one of the White Mountain books that I bought (and just recently sold) would get around a FN to FN+ grade if CGC'd.

 

Just like most dealers at that time, if a book was a pedigree book (and he sold a ton), it had to be NM or better.

 

In other words, he would justify ten creases (be it spine stress, corner creases, etc.) still being on a NM book if it had full gloss and white pages.

 

 

Regarding the Quality of Production, I wish CGC would put a STAR by the grade if the book was perfectly center, had no arrival dates, no ink distribution marks, no printer's creases, etc.

 

That's all I would need them to do, since these Manufacturing / Distribution anomalies, are NOT Factored into the grade. Anything that is already factored into the grade (i.e. wear and tear, loss of color or gloss, etc.) doesn't need anymore explanation as it would just make things more confusing (in my opinion).

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Regarding the Quality of Production, I wish CGC would put a STAR by the grade if the book was perfectly center, had no arrival dates, no ink distribution marks, no printer's creases, etc.

 

That's all I would need them to do, since these Manufacturing / Distribution anomalies, are NOT Factored into the grade. Anything that is already factored into the grade (i.e. wear and tear, loss of color or gloss, etc.) doesn't need anymore explanation as it would just make things more confusing (in my opinion).