Official Foxing Thread

[Zonker]

I'd like some insight into "foxing," either from your own experience, or from a paper chemist's point of view:

 

Recently I liberated my childhood collection from Mom & Dad's house. Some nice surprises, some not after 20+ years of benign neglect.

 

One thing that surprised me was a number of examples of books I had bagged two to a bag where 1 copy now had significant foxing, but the other was clean.

 

So my questions:

1- would you have expected any foxing to migrate from 1 book to another after being stored back-to-back in the same bag for 20 years?

2- in the cases mentioned, are my apparently-clean copies now doomed to eventually display foxing?

3- any way to reverse the process? (Wonderbread? Naptha VMP?)

 

Thanks in advance...

Zonker

[minutekev@50]

That's weird with one book possesing some foxing and the other not. And they were stored in similar conditions? Are the majority of these books silver and bronze comics or modern comics?

My experience with foxing is this: Over the past decade or so, most of my comics were stored stacked inside a large wooden cabinet in my bedroom. It was a combo-type furniture piece because I had my TV on top of this cabinet. Anyway, I know this wasn't the best way to store them but I just didn't have the time or the dime to spend on boxes, bags, etc. Plus I was in the Navy for four years and away from home, then I just sort of lost interest in my collection, moved away, etc.

Anyway, once I got serious about my collection again, I moved them into boxes and bags and placed them in my closet. I found that the books whose spines were closer to the back of the cabinet picked up some foxing. Not all, but some. Specifically the ones with white or light covers. And most of these were moderns. The older books (like my ragged out Bronze Hulks, a couple of crumpled Spideys and Batmans, etc.) were void of foxing. Weird, huh?

 

[Zonker]

Yes, your experience is as weird as mine!

 

The books I was thinking of were early Bronze and late Silver, bought 2nd hand 10-20 years ago or so. I'd have expected some books to have more foxing than others based on which box they were in, or how far into the stack within the box they were. But it was really puzzling that 2 books within the same bag looked so different. They were stored in cardboard boxes (not necessarily acid free) and polyethylene bags (not Mylar).

 

Maybe the book's foxing was already there when I put them in the bag? (I was even less condition-conscious back then). In that case it's a pretty good news story that the foxing did not migrate from book to book over the last decade or so.

 

Someone earlier described foxing as a fungus, so I'd expect moisture to be the biggest culprit in its growth/transmittal. Any other variables I'd need to control?

 

[joe_collector]

Someone earlier described foxing as a fungus, so I'd expect moisture to be the biggest culprit in its growth/transmittal. Any other variables I'd need to control?

 

Moisture is the big one, and it always pays to watch out for collections bought from Florida. Trust me, I know.

 

That's why the best books are from Canada or the upper USA.

 

Other than that, bagging, sealing and packing the books tight is usually enough to keep the bad fungus out. A board also helps, as would anything that could absorb moisture and keep the environment dry.

 

From what you're saying, I'd estimate the foxing was there when you bought the comics, and the reason it didn't spread is because foxing is the remains of the fungus. I guess it grows, dies, and then leaves a messy splotch.

[Zonker]

 

From what you're saying, I'd estimate the foxing was there when you bought the comics, and the reason it didn't spread is because foxing is the remains of the fungus. I guess it grows, dies, and then leaves a messy splotch.

 

Thanks J_C...very interesting. Any way to determine active fungus/foxing from

residual or stable or dead foxing?

[ninanina]

 

foxing is the remains of the fungus. I guess it grows, dies, and then leaves a messy splotch.

 

So, the fungus needs moisture to grow. Take away the moisture, and the fungus dies. So, if you take the comic out of the moisture, the foxing pretty much just stays there?....

 

or is it still allive and growing very very slowly?

 

I am wondering 'cause a dealer told me once a comic has foxing on it, it will continue to spread no matter what.

[joe_collector]

I am wondering 'cause a dealer told me once a comic has foxing on it, it will continue to spread no matter what.

 

I don't think that's really true, though just to be sure, I wouldn't be rubbing a foxed cover up against a NM Amazing Fantasy 15 anytime soon.

 

There are many Pedigrees that had foxing present in the 40's and they remain the same today. It's a residue from a once-live fungus, nothing more, nothing less.

[PovertyRow]

Actually the true cause of foxing is still being investigated and is not fully understood. It is not just a fungus attack. It is also a chemical reaction, ascribed to the reaction of iron and acids. Now this may provide an environment that can assist in a fungal growth, but many examinations of foxed areas reveal relatively small (and sometimes almost non-existent) sings of fungus.

 

My instinct - and it is only an instinct, is that since there seems to be a general consensus that an iron/acid reaction is in part at fault, it may be possible to have a book with foxing not infect another book, should that book not have the qualities to encourage the chemical reaction. But...it is also conceivable that the acid and maybe the iron (bit that seems to be more ingrained) might migrate to another book - but perhaps only to the very outer sheets that are in contact with an infected book.

 

The jury is still out on foxing.

[greggy]

Actually the true cause of foxing is still being investigated and is not fully understood. It is not just a fungus attack. It is also a chemical reaction, ascribed to the reaction of iron and acids. Now this may provide an environment that can assist in a fungal growth, but many examinations of foxed areas reveal relatively small (and sometimes almost non-existent) sings of fungus.

 

My instinct - and it is only an instinct, is that since there seems to be a general consensus that an iron/acid reaction is in part at fault, it may be possible to have a book with foxing not infect another book, should that book not have the qualities to encourage the chemical reaction. But...it is also conceivable that the acid and maybe the iron (bit that seems to be more ingrained) might migrate to another book - but perhaps only to the very outer sheets that are in contact with an infected book.

 

The jury is still out on foxing.

Murray Heft wrote an article in an old overstreet or overstreet update giving us his take on this dirty flaw. He suggested that any books with foxing be segregated from the non-infected books. Plus, I recalled that he said that we should use a brush to brush off any spores. Of course, I have never segregated my books and luckily, it appears that no foxing has spread....YET!

[PovertyRow]

Murray Heft wrote an article in an old overstreet or overstreet update giving us his take on this dirty flaw.

 

Do you mean Tracy Heft?

[greggy]

Ooops....Murray was his dealer brother. My bad!

[PovertyRow]

Ooops....Murray was his dealer brother. My bad!

 

Ahhh - at least your using Murray a couple of times now makes sense! I was starting to wonder if there WAS a Murray Heft Restorer out there! (Or Conservator - whatever you like).

[garthgantu]

A few thoughts/observations:

- I for one dislike foxing pretty intensely, as defects go. I know some collectors who don't even factor it into the grade, they consider it so lightly.

 

- Is there any consistency to the 'state' of the books that had the foxing vs. those that didn't? Is it possible that, in their original position under the TV, all the books that developed foxing were the "lower" books, meaning assuming you had them stacked one on top of the other, and some level of moisture invaded the bags, gravity somehow played a part in where that moisture settled within each bag? If this isn't a viable explanation, then I would have to assume the foxing was present before you placed them in the cabinet - or at least the "ingredients" necessary to cause the foxing were already present.

 

- I'm not aware of any way of removing foxing... it seems to me that as a misguided youth, I tried to erase the foxing off a comic and quickly learned my lesson. Seems to me I've also encountered books in which the foxing was 'fresh' enough that some of the fungus could actually be wiped away with a cloth, but that some residue always remained.

 

*Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, over the 30 years I've been collecting, I've heard varying perspectives on whether it's even a good idea to SEAL polybags..? There seem to be two schools of thought on the subject:

- the school that says "sealing the bag will keep any significant moisture out, along with dust and excess air - sealing the bag is the way to go."

 

- the school that says "the amount of air that can enter an unsealed polybag - or a mylar with open top - is basically insignificant. By keeping the bag/mylar open, you enable any moisture that does enter to exit again via evaporation, rather than being trapped in the sealed bag. Leave bags and mylars open."

 

Any supporting or dissenting opinions on this? I keep all my bags and mylars open, with all books in acid-free short boxes. I haven't noticed any "deterioration," but then again I don't go back and look at the books with a critical eye very often...

[minutekev@50]

Another thing relating to foxing may have to do with the area of the country you live in...

For instance, I live in Alabama, known for its thick-headed rednecks and thick-humidity ...the books I had were stored in a cabinet, but since I was away my bedroom was rarely kept air-conditioned or cooled by my parents (save on energy bills) unless I was coming home for a weekend or so....

[minutekev@50]

Which perhaps JC already mentioned in his post about moisture...(humidity makes things sweat, duh! )

[ninanina]

A few thoughts/observations:

- I for one dislike foxing pretty intensely, as defects go. I know some collectors who don't even factor it into the grade, they consider it so lightly.

 

- Is there any consistency to the 'state' of the books that had the foxing vs. those that didn't? Is it possible that, in their original position under the TV, all the books that developed foxing were the "lower" books, meaning assuming you had them stacked one on top of the other, and some level of moisture invaded the bags, gravity somehow played a part in where that moisture settled within each bag? If this isn't a viable explanation, then I would have to assume the foxing was present before you placed them in the cabinet - or at least the "ingredients" necessary to cause the foxing were already present.

 

- I'm not aware of any way of removing foxing... it seems to me that as a misguided youth, I tried to erase the foxing off a comic and quickly learned my lesson. Seems to me I've also encountered books in which the foxing was 'fresh' enough that some of the fungus could actually be wiped away with a cloth, but that some residue always remained.

 

*Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, over the 30 years I've been collecting, I've heard varying perspectives on whether it's even a good idea to SEAL polybags..? There seem to be two schools of thought on the subject:

- the school that says "sealing the bag will keep any significant moisture out, along with dust and excess air - sealing the bag is the way to go."

 

- the school that says "the amount of air that can enter an unsealed polybag - or a mylar with open top - is basically insignificant. By keeping the bag/mylar open, you enable any moisture that does enter to exit again via evaporation, rather than being trapped in the sealed bag. Leave bags and mylars open."

 

Any supporting or dissenting opinions on this? I keep all my bags and mylars open, with all books in acid-free short boxes. I haven't noticed any "deterioration," but then again I don't go back and look at the books with a critical eye very often...

 

I do know that putting an early 80's comic in a sealed plastic bag protects it with no negative effects over the course of 20 years. Hope that helps with one of your questions, anyway. (Personal experience)

 

A Silver Age collection I purchased several years ago, had foxing on comics lower down into the pile. The books for the most part just had a little foxing on them. Most due to the storage conditions as the basement in the home was uninsulated and the humidity levels (especially in the winter) were pretty high. I remember, for example, seeing a stack of Tales of Supense comics where the top 20 - 30 issues were dry, but the lower comics were soaked, and I do mean soaked with moisture. My suspicion is the lower comics were damaged only because of the concrete floor in the basement - as some of these were stored on the floor. The damage was from humidity, not flooding or leaking walls. The owner told me specifically, her basement had no leaks.

 

Also, in another area of the house, he kept Daredevils and some of these (I do remember seeing several DD 168's) already had foxing on them. I seem to remember these were stored in an attic as they were newer comics.

[joe_collector]

Another thing relating to foxing may have to do with the area of the country you live in...

 

I never even had a clue what foxing looked like til a few years ago. I've never seen a book from this part of the country with any such damage. Maybe west-coast islanders like greggy might, but not on the mainland.

[PovertyRow]

- I'm not aware of any way of removing foxing...

 

To the best of my knowledge the only way of removing some foxing is bleaching, which I feel is a case of the cure being worse than the disease!

 

And PLEASE - you restoration experimenters - please don't go out and buy a bottle of Clorox Bleach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ninanina]

- I'm not aware of any way of removing foxing...

 

To the best of my knowledge the only way of removing some foxing is bleaching, which I feel is a case of the cure being worse than the disease!

 

And PLEASE - you restoration experimenters - please don't go out and buy a bottle of Clorox Bleach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

iknowiknowiknow....iknow...

 

Ok, here it is.....

 

bleach and wonder bread?

[PovertyRow]

bleach and wonder bread?

 

No please! no no no! Now had you said Hydrogen Peroxide/Plaster of Paris gas impregnation method I would say "hmmmmmm - not too shoddy" - but to parapharde Dirty Dee in Pootie Tang: "No bleach! NO BLEACH! Arrgghhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"