Why does Top-Notch Comics #2 get NO respect from Overstreet?

[Shield]

From last year's Overstreet guide, issue #32 - Marvel Mystery Comics #4 has the following notes (among others) "First Nazi WAR cover on a comic book & First German Flag (Swastika) on cover of a comic (02/40)

 

Currently, Top-Notch Comics #2 is listed as "First Appearance Nazis swastika on cover" and NOT first Nazi "WAR" cover, which it clearly is. I was the one who mentioned this to CGC, and they contacted Overstreet to make the change.

 

Now, I'm sure you've read about me stating this in the past before, as this topic is akin to "Cleaned and pressed is the way to go" for Ablue.

 

So, being my birthday and all and owing/having owned at one point Pep Comics 1-65, I decide to maybe purchase a Captain America golden age reprint book or something. I pull out the 2003 guide, and notice the following concerning Cap #4:

 

First full pg. panel in comics

 

Hmm, I think. That's not correct; I remember an early Top-Notch having a full page panel because I remember the author signing the page with "'39" as in 1939 at the bottom.

 

Sure enough! First page panel in comics belongs to Top-Notch Comics #2!

 

The 2nd to the last page of the "Scott Rand" story is a full page, wouldn't you all agree? This trumps Cap #4 by about a year and a half...!

 

 

 

So, why no respect Overstreet? Is it just not that many people read MLJ, or is it as simple as history being written from the standpoint of the victors (i.e. Cap is still in print, Scott Rand strip died in the 40's)

 

Please answer 2 questions:

 

1. Why isn't Top-Notch #2 the first Nazi WAR cover?

2. Why isn't this the first full page panel in comics?

 

 

Scans/pics to follow:

 

 

[Shield]

Scott Rand full page panel, Feb 1940 issue of Top-Notch Comics

 

[Shield]

 

 

 

[Shield]

[Arty]

Besides The Wizard there are also fighters attacking that German bomber.

 

So this clearly is a war cover.

[shiverbones]

yeah that is pretty clear! No controversy here like the Superman "radiation" oil well!

[Timely]

Your evidence for the Top Notch #2 being the first war cover is valid, but incorrect. There are several other earlier books that also qualify, such as Action Comics #10 (3/39), Action comics #11 (4/39), Action Comics #17 (10/39), Amazing Man #6 (10/39) and Amazing Comics #8 (12/39). I'm sure there are other examples, but those come to mind.

 

Timely

[Shield]

 

 

[Shield]

Your evidence for the Top Notch #2 being the first war cover is valid, but incorrect. There are several other earlier books that also qualify, such as Action Comics #10 (3/39), Action comics #11 (4/39), Action Comics #17 (10/39), Amazing Man #6 (10/39) and Amazing Comics #8 (12/39). I'm sure there are other examples, but those come to mind.

 

Timely

 

I'm talking about the first NAZI war cover. Can you show me a swastika or any identifying information on any of those covers? They're just generic war covers, not specificially identifying the Germans whatsoever. I just looked them up in the Gerbers, and couldn't find anything.

 

Plus, the war officially started 09/01/1939 after Germany invaded Poland, so the first 3 Actions couldn't be examples of WWII covers if the war hadn't yet started. For all we know they could be any type of war/conflict, even WW I. Note the WW I era tank on one of those Action Comics.

[Mushroom]

[Timely]

It's true that WWII began on September 3rd, 1939, however war had already been luming in Europe for well over a year, with Germany's conquest of Austria on March 13, 1938. It's obvious that those submarines(u-boats) and tanks in Action Comics and Amazing Man are German. I don't need a flying swastika on the side of them to understand what I are seeing, do you? What do you other members think?

Is that a German war tank on the cover of Action Comics #17 or a tank from Mexico?

 

Timely

[Timely]

Here's another point, what other country back in 1939 even had a submarine???

 

Timely

[Shield]

It's true that WWII began on September 3rd, 1939, however war had already been luming in Europe for well over a year, with Germany's conquest of Austria on March 13, 1938. It's obvious that those submarines(u-boats) and tanks in Action Comics and Amazing Man are German. I don't need a flying swastika on the side of them to understand what I are seeing, do you? What do you other members think?

Is that a German war tank on the cover of Action Comics #17 or a tank from Mexico?

 

Timely

 

My records show September 1st having the war starting, 4 A.M.

 

Source One:

 

http://timelines.ws/20thcent/1939.HTML

 

"1939 Sep, 1, 4:40 a.m., World War II began. The Germans attacked Poland with their strategy of Blitzkrieg, or lightning war. The war started at dawn with salvos from the cruiser Schleswig-Holstein at the Polish garrison in (Danzig) Gdansk. "

 

Source Two: (The History Channel)

 

http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-bin/today_relocate.cgi?month=09&day=01&section=thisday

 

"At 4:45 a.m., some 1.5 million German troops invade Poland all along its 1,750-mile border with German-controlled territory. Simultaneously, the German Luftwaffe bombed Polish airfields, and German warships and U-boats attacked Polish naval forces in the Baltic Sea. Nazi leader Adolf Hitler claimed the massive invasion was a defensive action, but Britain and France were not convinced. "

 

 

Sure we can get into the annexation of Austria, or the fall of Sudentland/Checkslovokia in 1938. However, Hitler marched into these territories and nary a bullet was fired, remember? He claimed to be "liberating" these regions due to the large German populace.

 

Now, let's discuss the tanks.

 

Here's a nice page that list all the WWII German tanks.

 

http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/military/weapons-german-tanks.html

 

Here's a picture of them all:

 

 

 

 

Now, here's German tanks from World War I

 

Source:

http://www.billybishop.net/cptanks.html

 

 

 

And, in closing, here's the "tank" Supes is battling in Superman Comics #17. Note the crude turrets and drive train.

 

 

Your question should've been posed as this: Is that a tank from Mexico, or a World War I tank Superman is battling?

 

Show me where I'm wrong, if you don't mind.

[PovertyRow]

Shield, I like your style and your argument does hold water! I tend to agree with ya.

[Shield]

Here's another point, what other country back in 1939 even had a submarine???

 

Timely

 

Plenty of countries. Submarines have been around since World War One! I think you're a bit confused here, Timely, and you may need to brush up on your 20th century trivia after that last line....sort of embarrassing, don't you think?

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/online/submarines/ww1.htm

 

The First World War 1914 - 1918

 

"The Royal Navy entered the First World War with the world's largest submarine service, 62 boats, though only fifteen were ocean-going, the rest being coastal boats unsuitable for long distance patrols. Submarines were the first British naval units to go out to face the enemy in 1914 and the last to return to port in 1918. During the war, British submarines saw action in three main areas: the North Sea, the Baltic and the Dardanelles. C, D and E class boats carried out the majority of operations.

 

Throughout the war, submarines patrolled the Heligoland Bight off the German North Sea coast as part of the Royal Navy's blockade of the German High Seas Fleet. The lack of success in the joint action with surface forces on 28 August 1914 (the Battle of the Heligoland Bight) proved that the submarine was best used as a lone weapon. Thereafter, the rest of the war was spent in long periods of uneventful reconnaissance punctuated by attacks on German ships on the few occasions when they ventured to sea. For a short period in 1915, when it was believed that the best anti-submarine weapon might be another submarine, four C class boats were deployed on anti-U boat duties off Britain's east coast, in combination with trawlers as bait. Two U boats were destroyed, but the loss of C29 in a minefield on 29 August put an end to the operation. From March 1916, increasing numbers of submarines were fitted out as minelayers to operate in the hazardous waters near the German coastline. One of the strangest encounters occurred on 4 May 1916 when E31 succeeded in using its gun to destroy a low-flying Zeppelin."

 

 

 

 

Timely, it's ok if you're not into WWII as much as I am, and that's not really the point of all of this.

 

Here's the point. My take is displaying Supes going against tanks, boats, planes, et al. was merely to showcase his super-strength, nothing more, nothing less.

 

I openly challenge you to find a comic with a swastika on the cover in print before Top-Notch Comics #2, January 1940, which would've made it on the stands in late October/early November 1939. I never claimed this book was the first to depict war. It's just the first one that actually identified a real-life enemy, which was the Nazi's. MLJ just was first, that's all.

 

[Mushroom]

Shield, I like your style and your argument does hold water! I tend to agree with ya.

 

That goes double for me....

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Some very compelling arguments, and I like all the verifying visual evidence as well. Since I know nothing personally about any of these specific comics, I've been intrigued by the conversation. As for getting things sorted out in the Guide, the best I can recommend is that someone actually send in some xeroxes of everything for our records with a letter running down the salient points of this discussion. Then we'll have something in hand for Bob to give a once-over and hopefully we can make the Guide even more accurate next time around.

 

But I do want to caution that it's unlikely this would get into the next one due out in a little while due to our production schedule. Possible but unlikely.

 

To be perfectly honest, I've always felt that when we refer to something from that era as a "war" cover, it came from an American-centric perspective, or at least an abbreviation for "World War II," which of course did not exist as such until the US entered the war. So nothing before Pearl Harbor could technically be a "WWII" or "war" cover. But I think now we're really splitting hairs, a common past-time here anyway .

 

[ghoulaid]

"Sure enough! First page panel in comics belongs to Top-Notch Comics #2!"

 

Hmm... not correct either. Speed #1 has not one but 2 full page panels, not counting the splash page. It's from October 1939. Earlier than Top-Notch #2 by 3 months but WAY earlier than Cap #4.

 

Happy Birthday by the way!

[Shield]

Very cool! Do you have a scan you can submit? Love to see it!

[Shield]

Some very compelling arguments, and I like all the verifying visual evidence as well. Since I know nothing personally about any of these specific comics, I've been intrigued by the conversation. As for getting things sorted out in the Guide, the best I can recommend is that someone actually send in some xeroxes of everything for our records with a letter running down the salient points of this discussion. Then we'll have something in hand for Bob to give a once-over and hopefully we can make the Guide even more accurate next time around.

 

I will gladly do that. Can you PM me the address to send it in to?

 

To be perfectly honest, I've always felt that when we refer to something from that era as a "war" cover, it came from an American-centric perspective, or at least an abbreviation for "World War II," which of course did not exist as such until the US entered the war. So nothing before Pearl Harbor could technically be a "WWII" or "war" cover. But I think now we're really splitting hairs, a common past-time here anyway .

 

With all due respect, I wholeheartedly disagree. World War II however was just that; a WORLD WAR. It started in September 1939 and ended in September 1945. Any comic book covers published in this time period that relate to the world conflict is in fact a World War II cover.

 

So, by your own account then, Captain America #1 socking Hitler in the jaw isn't a World War II cover (March 1941)? Good luck selling that one to Timely fans.