Shill Bidding

[Artemaria]

As everyone knows, lately our little hobby has garnered some attention, and with that attention, speculation that there's been some shills bidding on some of the higher profile items (there has been rampant discussion on another board of suspicions surrounding a particular $44K page).

 

If true, this is a sad development, and one that I think we should try to protect against.

 

But, in view of the fact that on eBay (and in some other forums as well) most of the bidding occurs in the last few minutes -- or seconds -- how do you know that shill bidding has or will take place?

 

Also, isn't there a potential downfall for the seller, if they are engaging in shill bidding, that they may be left holding the bag? Thus, doesn't shill bidding have numerous potential downfalls for everyone?

 

Other than not buying stuff - how does one protect against shill bidding?

 

Thanks in advance for what I anticipate to be the usual well reasoned and thoughtful commentary.

 

- A

 

 

 

 

[Pirate]

I don't see how you can protect yourself unless you deal with people you know. I always try to bid at the last second if possible as one way to deter, but that doesn't stop the yahoo's who like to bid early and often.

[irchooker]

Shilling does happen fairly frequently, IMO. With ebay I think it's how you perceive the shilling (much easier under the previous bidding system with named bidders).

 

My best recalled example of shilling was about 2 years ago. A Grendel cover, painted by J.K. Snyder III for the Dark Horse reprints of the series, was on ebay 4 times over a period of about 4 months. I had the auction shut down the third time, but ebay refused the last time and it sold. It was obvious that the first 2 times someone had sold the piece to themselves. Identity A sold the cover to Identity B, then back to A again. The person actually sold a few things between the identities, but what was most interesting was the fact that these 2 'people' would constantly bid on each others auctions, in fact Identity B only bid on Identity A auctions, yet never (rarely) win. Of course, this was back when you could see the bid ID's. I actually compiled a giant list of bidding oddities and sent it to ebay, who then shut down the auction the third time. Not the fourth, which was odd, I thought. I did write the winner to tell them what I thought, but they must have been okay with the price paid.

 

The best way to deal with shilling is exactly the same as the advice anyone would give about sniping: bid the amount you would be willing to pay and no more. Yes, paying more than you have to due to shilling is horrible -- and likely a crime depending upon the jurisdiction -- and will likely you off, but if you determine that the market value for a piece is X and you have to pay X, so be it. Sadly, treating an 'open' auction like a closed offer process goes against the notion of 'open', but that's the way it is.

[Artemaria]

Shilling does happen fairly frequently, IMO. With ebay I think it's how you perceive the shilling (much easier under the previous bidding system with named bidders).

 

My best recalled example of shilling was about 2 years ago. A Grendel cover, painted by J.K. Snyder III for the Dark Horse reprints of the series, was on ebay 4 times over a period of about 4 months. I had the auction shut down the third time, but ebay refused the last time and it sold. It was obvious that the first 2 times someone had sold the piece to themselves. Identity A sold the cover to Identity B, then back to A again. The person actually sold a few things between the identities, but what was most interesting was the fact that these 2 'people' would constantly bid on each others auctions, in fact Identity B only bid on Identity A auctions, yet never (rarely) win. Of course, this was back when you could see the bid ID's. I actually compiled a giant list of bidding oddities and sent it to ebay, who then shut down the auction the third time. Not the fourth, which was odd, I thought. I did write the winner to tell them what I thought, but they must have been okay with the price paid.

 

The best way to deal with shilling is exactly the same as the advice anyone would give about sniping: bid the amount you would be willing to pay and no more. Yes, paying more than you have to due to shilling is horrible -- and likely a crime depending upon the jurisdiction -- and will likely you off, but if you determine that the market value for a piece is X and you have to pay X, so be it. Sadly, treating an 'open' auction like a closed offer process goes against the notion of 'open', but that's the way it is.

 

This is, of course, great advice, and likely will help me sleep at night.

 

But a potential problem is that you may not win too many auctions with such caution.

 

On the other hand you won't find yourself hunched over a toilet, heaving your guts out because you won an auction at a very high cost thinking "Good Lord, I can't believe I spent so much money on this piece of crapola!"

 

This is a rough hobby.

 

- A

[mister_not_so_nice]

On the other hand you won't find yourself hunched over a toilet, heaving your guts out because you won an auction at a very high cost thinking "Good Lord, I can't believe I spent so much money on this piece of crapola!"

 

This is a rough hobby.

 

- A

 

Are you kidding? That's how I know I've got a real "keeper"

[Tatterdamillion]

Double bagging it helps.

[Artemaria]

On the other hand you won't find yourself hunched over a toilet, heaving your guts out because you won an auction at a very high cost thinking "Good Lord, I can't believe I spent so much money on this piece of crapola!"

 

This is a rough hobby.

 

- A

 

Are you kidding? That's how I know I've got a real "keeper"

 

Apparently, I've been going about this all wrong. Thanks for the mid-course correction.

 

- A

[malvin]

 

But a potential problem is that you may not win too many auctions with such caution.

 

 

This is a rough hobby.

 

- A

 

Remember what the wise man said:

 

Do not cherisk your recent ebay winnings, for you are the one who was willing to pay the most for it

 

Never overspend and be patient and buy things at the right price!

 

Malvin

[Mighty Hal]

Malvin, you've said some wise things. But "don't cherish your ebay winnings" isn't one of 'em. Sure, it means that you bid the most. But it also means that you won the prize.

 

Like Artemaria, I've found myself staring blankly at a computer screen, surprised that I bid THAT MUCH on a piece of OA. And, yeah, I've overspent and wondered exactly when my mind decided that my bank account no longer mattered. But the feeling fades quickly.

 

The feeling that hasn't faded yet? When I failed to bid what I really would have paid for that Terry Moore panel page...and that David Finch splash...and that Jae Lee cover. Instead, I bid the safe, sane, ultimately lower price -- and failed bid. The lost pieces are the ones that keep me up at night.

 

(Artemaria, no way to absolutely stop shills. Just no way unless irchooker is on the case. Regrets.)

 

 

[Artemaria]

Malvin, you've said some wise things. But "don't cherish your ebay winnings" isn't one of 'em. Sure, it means that you bid the most. But it also means that you won the prize.

 

Like Artemaria, I've found myself staring blankly at a computer screen, surprised that I bid THAT MUCH on a piece of OA. And, yeah, I've overspent and wondered exactly when my mind decided that my bank account no longer mattered. But the feeling fades quickly.

 

The feeling that hasn't faded yet? When I failed to bid what I really would have paid for that Terry Moore panel page...and that David Finch splash...and that Jae Lee cover. Instead, I bid the safe, sane, ultimately lower price -- and failed bid. The lost pieces are the ones that keep me up at night.

 

(Artemaria, no way to absolutely stop shills. Just no way unless irchooker is on the case. Regrets.)

 

 

Hal -

 

You hit the other side of the questions, which is why shill bidding works.

 

Assuming you are employed, you can always make more money, but you just can't get those pages back. Sometimes I've seen a page come again, but for some reason, it doesn't work out (I've already committed money to another page, etc.).

 

But that desire to get that one of a kind artwork that contains a memory of a really happy time earlier in your life when these four color books meant so much. That's a powerful motivator. And maybe you're right, when you are reaching for that, your bank account doesn't matter.

 

And yet, it does not make it any easier, when either the page slips away, because someone spent as much as they would on a car for it, or because you couldn't go to that next level that someone either legitimately or illegitmately was pushing the page.

 

It's an interesting dynamic that just gives me pause having not been in the hobby as long as many of the others on the board.

 

I guess another question is, how long have people experienced shill bidding?

 

- A

[vodou]

I guess another question is, how long have people experienced shill bidding?

 

Since the beginning of eBay and before!

 

The early days of eBay were very different. You could leave feedback for anybody, no transaction required. Also if I remember correctly every feedback originally counted, so dupes didn't matter. Back then Comicart-L folks used to leave feedback for each other, upon request, for deals that happened outside of eBay, just for fun, etc. It was a freeforall. Shilling was all over the place and there wasn't much of a mechanism for reporting as eBay was just a phone number (rings and rings and rings) and e-mail addy that was rarely if ever responded to.

 

Pre-eBay, you'd see something in CBG or hear about it privately and get into a phantom-bidding war. In other words the seller would ask for an offer, then tell you somebody was higher. "Do you want to counter-bid?" On and on it goes, meanwhile you may actually be the only bidder! This still happens today.

 

It all boils down to putting a realistic price on things, what you can afford and what you can afford to live without (food, decent shelter, etc.) and then putting your best bid forward...late in the game.

 

[Artemaria]

Michael -

 

Thanks for the history lesson, your discussion about the early days of eBay are particularly interesting. Makes me think that eBay has gotten better in addition to getting worse.

 

As for the phantom bidder with a person on a phone. I've had my suspicions. But now they are confirmed. Thanks for feeding into my paranoia!

 

Best regards.

 

- A

 

P.S.: By the way, what does Aelhra mean?

[malvin]

Malvin, you've said some wise things. But "don't cherish your ebay winnings" isn't one of 'em. Sure, it means that you bid the most. But it also means that you won the prize.

 

Like Artemaria, I've found myself staring blankly at a computer screen, surprised that I bid THAT MUCH on a piece of OA. And, yeah, I've overspent and wondered exactly when my mind decided that my bank account no longer mattered. But the feeling fades quickly.

 

The feeling that hasn't faded yet? When I failed to bid what I really would have paid for that Terry Moore panel page...and that David Finch splash...and that Jae Lee cover. Instead, I bid the safe, sane, ultimately lower price -- and failed bid. The lost pieces are the ones that keep me up at night.

 

(Artemaria, no way to absolutely stop shills. Just no way unless irchooker is on the case. Regrets.)

 

 

Hal, it all depends on your budget. For me, if I like the page (or specifically the comic story), I can spend up to $150 even if I am overpaying. It is basically money that I can afford to throw away without crying. Once the numbers get bigger, I can't afford to go stupid anymore.

 

On your other point, the wise man has another saying:

 

"Do not mourn the art that slip through your hands. Another piece is always around the corner and you will be thankful that you have the cash on hand to purchase it when it appears"

 

I've missed out on alot of art, but soon enough, there is always something that catches my eye. So don't worry if you miss out on art, there are plenty of fish out there!

 

Mavin

[Mighty Hal]

True, Malvin, there is always another piece that will catch the eye. Sadly (because my bank account and I can't afford it), I want the new pieces...AND the ones that got away....

[malvin]

True, Malvin, there is always another piece that will catch the eye. Sadly (because my bank account and I can't afford it), I want the new pieces...AND the ones that got away....

 

Well, I don't know the exact saying but basically you can't have it all! We aren't all Bill Gates (or Eric Roberts in our hobby). We all have to pick and choose and I'm really happy with what I ended up with, even considering the ones that got away.