Shaved or Not?

[12c_Comic]

I just notice this copy of AMS #20 CGC at Heritage and wonder if this comic is shaved or were there copys "with bad hair cuts"......

 

 

Herttiage copy of AMS #20 CGC

[fantastic_four]

Are you talking about the slant on the right side? There are a bunch of copies with bad haircuts like this!

[Rickdogg]

Jenna Jameson

[12c_Comic]

Are you talking about the slant on the right side? There are a bunch of copies with bad haircuts like this!

 

Yes,did some copys back then in the silverage have these bad cuts from the "Press" or could the grader missed this all together..

[Arty]

Jenna Jameson

 

So is it shaved or not?

[Rickdogg]

According to my emperical data....

 

 

YES!!!

[fantastic_four]

Yes,did some copys back then in the silverage have these bad cuts from the "Press"

 

Yes

[12c_Comic]

Would you consider this maybe from the press,as it is very slight?

 

AMS #4 CGC

[fantastic_four]

Maybe!

 

I'm sure there were MUCH worse miscuts than that, and DiceX can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was the job of the press operators to spot books with significant defects and dispose of them. I guess something like this Spidey 4 is subtle enough to slip through.

[DiceX]

Maybe!

 

I'm sure there were MUCH worse miscuts than that, and DiceX can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was the job of the press operators to spot books with significant defects and dispose of them. I guess something like this Spidey 4 is subtle enough to slip through.

 

Binder operator's job. The bad trim didn't happen on the press.

As for defects, it would probably have to have been pretty bad to toss a book.

Like, when the binder jams and books looking like hamburger meat.

 

No doubt the tolerance for error was much much greater than the little off trim on the Spidey 4.

This would have passed through without a second thought.

[fantastic_four]

Do you know whether the books were trimmed after being bound and folded back in the 60s, and if not, do you know whether it's done today?

[DiceX]

They were bound, folded, then trimmed.

Same thing today, but a little different on the method.

[fantastic_four]

Do you know which edges they were trimmed on in the early 60s? Marvels have overflash up top, so I assume they weren't trimmed there...so was it just the right and bottom? And if they were trimmed on the right, why do the innermost pages at the centerfold poke out farther than the exterior pages on most, but not all, copies?

[DiceX]

Do you know which edges they were trimmed on in the early 60s? Marvels have overflash up top, so I assume they weren't trimmed there...so was it just the right and bottom? And if they were trimmed on the right, why do the innermost pages at the centerfold poke out farther than the exterior pages on most, but not all, copies?

 

I think I've answered these before, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

So here goes...

 

The books were trimmed at the same time on top and bottom.

Then the book was trimmed on the face. (Right side)

This is the reason for some books to be out of square because they may have shifted slightly before the second cut.

 

I'm still looking for a proper answer for the pages being uneven.

Right now, best guess is that the paper shrinkage causes it.

Newsprint was such a trash paper to print on and would shrink for many years after the book was printed.

Thus sometimes causing paper to be shorter than the cover.

Other times the paper on the outside shrinks more because it has more contact with air and humidity. (which cause newsprint to shrink)

 

Look for some of the other posts, because I may have gone into more detail.

[Perry-migration]

Speaking of small books, here's my nomination for this month's prize-winner. The book is so tiny left to right that two spacers, one on each side positioned to their limits had to be incorporated and the book still isn't being held snugly!

 

 

web page

 

Are there any lower limits to actual size that at some point CGC will not validate a blue label? This one's about a half inch narrower than average and has absolutely no typical factory cut symmetry to the page ends themselves.

 

Seems there used to be many CGC books with normal Marvel chips and pre-chips approx. 1 year ago. Steadily, over the last year, the number of slabbed books that are drastically narrow have increased while at the same time, CGC slabbed Marvels with chips have all but disappeared like an endangered species.

 

Where chips and pre-chips were at one time a very common trait on early Marvels (pre-1966) in the hobby marketplace, in surfing any particular weekend's offerings on Ebay, the results are the opposite of what should be seen. Slabbed (and for that matter..raw) books with chips and pre-chips are the rarity.

 

 

[Aces]

That ST 102 looks trimmed to me.

Only a small 1/16" overwrap at the top yet the comic code stamp is well cut into...

And a counterclockwise tilt in the wrap (more white showing at bottom spine than top) should make more of the top right show, not less!

[Perry-migration]

Dice:

 

I'm not a printer, but as a possible explanation, how does this sound? Please try and follow me, I don't know printer's terms.

 

If you take any periodical, open it to the centerfold and press the spine downward, flat to the underlying surface, all the pages are the same size. Yet, when you eliminate the pressure and the natural spring/resiliance of the spine fold is restored, the book will double bow back upwards, like so:

 

Now, closing the book of equal size pages (already established by that table top experiment), there is a natural spatial displacement when the book is folded back closed normally, of each successive page. The outside of the spine of the cover will be slighter to the left of the cover and staples than the cover itslef. The next leaf (4 reading pages) will be positioned slightly to the left of the following leaf, displaced slightly by the thickness of the paper of the preceeding leaf, etc. etc.. Until you reach the centerfold, that will be definitely displaced to the right by all the pages, the cover, and any slack in the stapling of these leaves.

 

Naturally, this constant displacement of equal size pages folded at the spine will result in the same displacement on the right. Greatly enhanced, on the left (spine) you have pages stacked up against each other thusly: (((((((, of course, packaged much tighter. The centerfold is pushed farthest to the right by all the preceeding pages so on the right edge, the centerfold should stick out longer than the rest of the pages, giving us the familiar Marvel arc we typically note on the right edge of books which is the opposite of: ((((((((( , which is: )))))))).

 

The shortest page on the right should be the cover since it initiates the series of leafs as the further-most point to the left, and so on. The longest page on the right should be the centerfold since it was pushed to the right the farthest on the spine end.

 

Sometimes loose staples will cause even a greater displacement left to right of successive pages and add to the page's right edge bevel.

[Perry-migration]

Chips are usually not uniformly distributed along an entire edge, or at a uniform width. On most chipped books I've seen, the weight of the chips (if more than 1) is usually on the bottom or top (I'm convinced that these early Marvels were cut on the right cover's edge with an upstroke, rather than down because of the form they all seem to share).

 

Now this 102 is CGCed blue and they're the experts so I'm not disputing their call. Just postulating a scenario on a book similar to this one.

 

It's possible that there might have been 1 or 2 thin pre-chips on the bottom half of the front cover right edge and some more aggressive, invasive (wider) full chips (pieces) missing further up towards the top half of the right edge.

 

IF (and that's a BIG if) this book were trimmed (and I'm not saying it has been), that could account for the dis-symmetry you're noticing in the spine fold vs. the right edge's assymetry to each other.

 

A book could be angle-trimmed on the right edge and yield a look like this one. The angle necessitated by the depth and position of the chips, and the mistake to try removing all traces of them yielding a totally unnatural look like this particular issue that should scare the BeJesus out of anyone who fears trimming.

 

I'm sure CGC had their hands full with this call. Not an easy one! And I don't necessarily disagree with it. I can't. I'd have to know far more about the printing, exactly how the machinery operated, and what anolomies might be expected in normal production to be absolutely sure, one way or the other.

 

All you can do in cases is like this is say, "It looks like it is, or it isn't". Decide on which side of the fence you sit on, either pass or play based on your own beliefs, and leave it up to the experts to slab it blue, purple, or not at all.

[fantastic_four]

If you take any periodical, open it to the centerfold and press the spine downward, flat to the underlying surface, all the pages are the same size.

 

Are you sure this is correct? I haven't done a lot of page width comparisons yet, but if Dice is right that they trimmed the books after being folded, then since prior to that edge trimming the interior pages poked out to the right of the cover just as you described, after the factory trim occurred, that would mean that interior pages are narrower than the cover by 1/64" or perhaps 1/32".

[DiceX]

Dice:

 

I'm not a printer, but as a possible explanation, how does this sound? Please try and follow me, I don't know printer's terms.

 

If you take any periodical, open it to the centerfold and press the spine downward, flat to the underlying surface, all the pages are the same size. Yet, when you eliminate the pressure and the natural spring/resiliance of the spine fold is restored, the book will double bow back upwards, like so:

 

Now, closing the book of equal size pages (already established by that table top experiment), there is a natural spatial displacement when the book is folded back closed normally, of each successive page. The outside of the spine of the cover will be slighter to the left of the cover and staples than the cover itslef. The next leaf (4 reading pages) will be positioned slightly to the left of the following leaf, displaced slightly by the thickness of the paper of the preceeding leaf, etc. etc.. Until you reach the centerfold, that will be definitely displaced to the right by all the pages, the cover, and any slack in the stapling of these leaves.

 

Naturally, this constant displacement of equal size pages folded at the spine will result in the same displacement on the right. Greatly enhanced, on the left (spine) you have pages stacked up against each other thusly: (((((((, of course, packaged much tighter. The centerfold is pushed farthest to the right by all the preceeding pages so on the right edge, the centerfold should stick out longer than the rest of the pages, giving us the familiar Marvel arc we typically note on the right edge of books which is the opposite of: ((((((((( , which is: )))))))).

 

The shortest page on the right should be the cover since it initiates the series of leafs as the further-most point to the left, and so on. The longest page on the right should be the centerfold since it was pushed to the right the farthest on the spine end.

 

Sometimes loose staples will cause even a greater displacement left to right of successive pages and add to the page's right edge bevel.

 

What you are describing here is called "shingling".

That is...When a book is folded and trimmed on all three sides, then opened back up, the individual pages of the centerfold are smaller than the pages of the cover.

This is caused by the thickness of the pages stacked on top of each other cause the inside pages to be shorter.

 

However, you are also trying to describe the fact that *most* comics from the 80's and back, when opened, the inside pages are the same size as the cover.

Thus, when closed, the inside pages stick out a bit from the pages towards the outside.

 

This is what I was trying to describe in the prior post as the comic body pages have actually shrunk over time.

The outermost pages have shrunk more than the innermost pages.

Time, temperature and humidity causes the old newsprint to shrink.

I'm sure you have a book with the inner pages that are quite a bit smaller than the cover pages. This is because the body pages are newsprint and the cover is a nice coated stock that is less likely to shrink.

 

At least, this is my belief.

I know for a fact that the books were folded first, then trimmed on three sides.

The older books were made of a single sheet of paper that was folded up, cover wrapped around it, stitched, then trimmed on three sides.

(The single sheet of paper is another story. I may elaborate later.)

Since the pages were originally trimmed even with the edges of the cover on a folded book, the only thing that can change that evenness is paper shrinkage.

(Or someone with an exacto blade and a ruler.)