Shaved or Not?

[DiceX]

that would mean that interior pages are narrower than the cover by 1/64" or perhaps 1/32".

 

That is correct. Originally, they were.

Until the paper shrinks.

See the above post.

[BachelorOfComix]

Nice Dice. I like the new avatar.

 

[PovertyRow]

This is what I was trying to describe in the prior post as the comic body pages have actually shrunk over time.

 

Actually, when the pages are cut while lying flat, the outer pages will stick out more than the inner ones, with the centerfold sticking out most of all, when the book is folded. It is simply due to the fact that the outside pages are wrapped around a larger number of inner pages. So they are essentially "pulled back" and what you end up with is a "vee" when looking along the right edge.

 

Try it for yourself at home. Get some 8 1/2 x 11 paper - say 8 or 10 pages of it. They are all cuit to the same size. So just square tghem up and fold them right down the middle. Make a really sharp fold. Then look at how the outer pages are a bit shorter at the edge than the inner pages. It is just the bulk of the inner pages making that shortness.

 

Many a trimmed comic have been discovered because someone just flattened the book down while it was folded and sliced down the edge. This results in no "vee" and all the pages are even when the book is closed.

[Warlord]

This is what I was trying to describe in the prior post as the comic body pages have actually shrunk over time.

 

Actually, when the pages are cut while lying flat, the outer pages will stick out more than the inner ones, with the centerfold sticking out most of all, when the book is folded. It is simply due to the fact that the outside pages are wrapped around a larger number of inner pages. So they are essentially "pulled back" and what you end up with is a "vee" when looking along the right edge.

 

Try it for yourself at home. Get some 8 1/2 x 11 paper - say 8 or 10 pages of it. They are all cuit to the same size. So just square tghem up and fold them right down the middle. Make a really sharp fold. Then look at how the outer pages are a bit shorter at the edge than the inner pages. It is just the bulk of the inner pages making that shortness.

 

Many a trimmed comic have been discovered because someone just flattened the book down while it was folded and sliced down the edge. This results in no "vee" and all the pages are even when the book is closed.

 

Didn't DiceX explain that the books are cut/trimmed WHILE folded? So that a natural, freshly printed/cut book would NOT have a "vee" and all the pages are even? And then the conjecture was that different aging of the paper would result in varying amounts of size change... potentially resulting in a "vee"?

 

I'm soooo confused!!

[fantastic_four]

Didn't DiceX explain that the books are cut/trimmed WHILE folded? So that a natural, freshly printed/cut book would NOT have a "vee" and all the pages are even? And then the conjecture was that different aging of the paper would result in varying amounts of size change... potentially resulting in a "vee"?

 

I'm soooo confused!!

 

You're not confused, I think Pov is.

[PovertyRow]

Didn't DiceX explain that the books are cut/trimmed WHILE folded? So that a natural, freshly printed/cut book would NOT have a "vee" and all the pages are even? And then the conjecture was that different aging of the paper would result in varying amounts of size change... potentially resulting in a "vee"?

 

I'm soooo confused!!

 

You're not confused, I think Pov is.

 

I will always acquiesce to greater knowledge but I do believe the books were folded after cutting. Folding would mean the pages are in reader order. How sheets of pages could be assembled in reader order and folded before being cut is beyond me...anyway...

 

"Shingling" is a process used by strippers (printing strippers - craftsman) to compensate for "creep".

 

"Creep" is the term used for where the middle pages extend beyond the outside opf the folded set, as I described in my at-home paper test.

[fantastic_four]

Let's say this foreslash is a rough, ASCII visual representation of a slanted, miscut right edge: /

 

If a book were cut before being folded with a slanted miscut, then the front half would slant like this: / and the back half would also slant the same way: /

 

When you folded the second half of the book over, all of those pages turn around backwards by 180 degrees. This makes the back half reverse its slant to be like this: \

 

Now, the front cover slants like this: /

And the folded-over back half of the book slants like this: \

 

However, every miscut Marvel I've seen has both the front and back slanting the same way, and this suggests to me that they cut the edge after it was folded. Example:

 

 

 

[DiceX]

I will always acquiesce to greater knowledge but I do believe the books were folded after cutting. Folding would mean the pages are in reader order. How sheets of pages could be assembled in reader order and folded before being cut is beyond me...anyway...

 

Don't doubt me on this. I wouldn't tell you something that ain't so.

If you want proof, plan a trip to see me for the weekend and I'll give you proof.

Live in front of your eyes.

Believe me. I know what I'm talking about.

 

Until then, I'll work a tutorial to display in the comfort of your home.

Hopefully I'll have it to show you soon.

 

"Shingling" is a process used by strippers (printing strippers - craftsman) to compensate for "creep".

 

Shingling and Creep are two different things.

Shingling is what you are describing with the inside pages being pushed from the spine by the thickness of the paper stacked on top of each other at the fold of the book.

Creep is when the pages are pushed in a radius at the axis of the top or bottom of the spine. This is from the pages being built from one large sheet of paper and folded to create a book.

 

On a 32 page book of thin newsprint, the Creep will be hardly noticed.

 

[DiceX]

Let's say this foreslash is a rough, ASCII visual representation of a slanted, miscut right edge: /

 

If a book were cut before being folded with a slanted miscut, then the front half would slant like this: / and the back half would also slant the same way: /

 

When you folded the second half of the book over during the folding, all of those pages turn around backwards by 180 degrees. This makes the back half reverse its slant to be like this: \

 

Now, the front cover slants like this: /

And the folded-over back half of the book slants like this: \

 

However, every miscut Marvel I've seen has both the front and back slanting the same way, and this suggests to me that they cut the edge after it was folded.

 

FF, you are correct.

[PovertyRow]

Until then, I'll work a tutorial to display in the comfort of your home.

 

Excellent - I look forward to seeing this.

 

PS - I was also a pre-press manager but before the days of digital. We actually exposed negatives under UV light with multi-burn flats hand cut by strippers. The ymck negs were even acid etched by hand and stippled by hand. Now the closest we ever came to a comic book was a 16 - 32 page 4-color sales circular (such as department stores put out today). So anything you can tell me on comic book press production would be useful.

[Bronty]

So the individual sheet were folded, then cut, then assembled and stapled into a book? Is that the order?

 

I ask because it strikes me that if the cut stage were after the assembly/staple stage, the "v" on the right hand edge (when laid flat), or what I think you are referring to as shingling, would exist in that case right?

[DiceX]

See my new thread for the tutorial.

I thought it may be easier for search purposes if it was in a new thread.

 

(Give me 5 minutes to set it up)

[PovertyRow]

See my new thread for the tutorial.

I thought it may be easier for search purposes if it was in a new thread.

 

(Give me 5 minutes to set it up)

 

5....4...3...2....1

 

Rats - nothing yet - time to uphold the time-honored tradition of grabbing a drink at the usually very handy nearby bar!

[DiceX]

See my new thread for the tutorial.

I thought it may be easier for search purposes if it was in a new thread.

 

(Give me 5 minutes to set it up)

 

5....4...3...2....1

 

Rats - nothing yet - time to uphold the time-honored tradition of grabbing a drink at the usually very handy nearby bar!

 

It's up, you sot.

[PovertyRow]

See my new thread for the tutorial.

I thought it may be easier for search purposes if it was in a new thread.

 

(Give me 5 minutes to set it up)

 

5....4...3...2....1

 

Rats - nothing yet - time to uphold the time-honored tradition of grabbing a drink at the usually very handy nearby bar!

 

It's up, you sot.

 

 

PS - not sure how it is today but did you even notice that no matter how far out in the country the printing plant is, a bar is usually within walking distance?

[DiceX]

PS - not sure how it is today but did you even notice that no matter how far out in the country the printing plant is, a bar is usually within walking distance?

 

That's funny because the night shift gets off work at 7am and there is a local bar that opens up at the same time.

It's packed full of printers by 7:15.

 

Who'da thought a bar has it's best business hours from 7am to noon?

[PovertyRow]

PS - not sure how it is today but did you even notice that no matter how far out in the country the printing plant is, a bar is usually within walking distance?

 

That's funny because the night shift gets off work at 7am and there is a local bar that opens up at the same time.

It's packed full of printers by 7:15.

 

Who'da thought a bar has it's best business hours from 7am to noon?

 

Yep - now I spent most of my time in pre-production. In those days we had a Hell 300 scanner for several years and finally added, a couple of years before I left, a Crossfiled 645. That was the first foray into anything "digital" - am curious about the state of digital pre-press today. I assume it makes things like acid etching and hand stippling and opaquing out the dust spots a thing of the past?

[DiceX]

Yep - now I spent most of my time in pre-production. In those days we had a Hell 300 scanner for several years and finally added, a couple of years before I left, a Crossfiled 645. That was the first foray into anything "digital" - am curious about the state of digital pre-press today. I assume it makes things like acid etching and hand stippling and opaquing out the dust spots a thing of the past?

 

I can't remember the last time I saw dirt on a plate.

It's all done with heat now. Dust doesn't show anymore.

 

I got in just as the acid etch was going away. (luckily)

That stuff stunk all to be damned.

(Reminds me of the Mudbone skit about Miss Rudolph, the Voodoo Lady.)

[PovertyRow]

I got in just as the acid etch was going away. (luckily) That stuff stunk all to be damned.

 

No kidding. You should have seen the owner. He was constantly rubbing his eyes and snorting out his nose!

[DiceX]

You should have seen the owner. He was constantly rubbing his eyes and snorting out his nose!

 

There was a guy I worked with when I first started.

He never used safety equipment, and thought nothing of sticking his hand in a drum of etch without gloves.

His nicknames were "Swamp Thing" and "Brundle Fly".

 

One night during lunch break while everyone was enjoying a quick meal and conversation, part of his ear fell off and onto his lunch.

Needless to say, everyone was in the floor holding their sides and gasping for air.

I thought my side was going to crack open from the laugh.

This was the night "Swamp Thing" died and he was dubbed "Brundle Fly".