The Official The Walking Dead Discussion Thread 13 13

[artistlost]

I could of sworn James or anyone would come in and snipe that .

 

I only went to $675

 

People are sleeping right now.

 

Or has the bubble burst?!?!!

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Walking-Dead-Original-Art-Page-Issue-34-Page-7-Kirkman-Adlard1-/121206728104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c387be5a8&nma=true&si=5MkGoFc5%252BKV8OFTLK2fXmdaQ4F8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

that one? nice pick up!

 

 

There's the piece. Man!

No I didn't get that one. I was sleeping that night. James got that one. I got this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370951256384?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

 

That was me you outbid...I was bidding on it just not as strong as you.

 

Nice page and congrats!

 

mathew

Edited December 4, 2013 by artistlost

[nikocb]

Fair enough...

 

Something I was discussing on PM which is kind of related (or touches on this) is that I can't understand the interest in these scenes when it comes to the art. There are some less than savoury moments depicting children having been beheaded, rape, mother and daughter shot, torture and generally assorted nasty endings to quite a few characters without naming them all. I just don't get why there is still a high value on these pieces when they are essentially taken outside of the context of the story. It's just a page containing only this content. Yuk!

 

I can understand your take on things but I think they are fitting within the context of a tale of horror, the human condition and survival without society. It is getting less effective over time though... but it's hard to knock it just because it is distasteful. The grim reality of this planet is that similar and worse things happen every day and that is with society being in place... it makes some of TWD seem not that far fetched.

 

Like I said, other people can argue this much more eloquently than me but you can read about the backlash Mark Millar recently got for pretty much the same thing.

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-Kick--2-Creator-Mark-Millar-Rape-Comments-Have-So-Many-People-Angry-38950.html - that article puts it quite well but it was the first one google found for me so I'm sure there are better.

 

I think the argument of including rape so that the story remains realistic is problematic for a number of reasons but in this case I find it hard to believe that this extra bit of realism is needed in a zombie book.

 

By the way, the person who said that Kirkman wanted to make people angry by including the rape scene - that's pretty much the hallmark of a hack.

 

So is there ever a time, in your opinion, that using rape in a story isn't lazy or hacky?

Why don't I ever hear about Stieg Larsson getting criticized for his rape in TGWTDT?

[Katchoo]

It's a plot device, plain and simple. Girl in the fridge to the nth degree. It's as cheap of a ploy as the guy hiding in the shower with the knife. Lazy...

 

Sometimes I can't tell when people are being serious or sarcastic online but assuming you're serious...

 

 

It is pretty much refrigeration.

 

Michonne is a vastly lesser developed character, but it doesn't have anything to do with the rape scene being cut out. It has more to do with the producer for Season 2 and 3. He played played nicely with AMC but had no idea what the hell he was doing in translating the story and characters to television. He was finally replaced this season, and in my opinion, we have some of the best written, directed and... well...produced episodes of the series.

 

There is still a scene depicting the Governor's exerting his dominance over a woman through somewhat sexual means, but it is much much tamer than the comic and done more to mess with Glenn than anything else.

 

I'm getting more interested in watching the show now, just to see how they can take the comic and make something a bit different out of it.

 

I must be a simpleton, because I love every aspect of the story. It's lazy? Who gives a mess if it's lazy? It's supposed to be entertaining, not introspective or profound.

I know that I was effected emotionally by those scenes in the book.. because I thoroughly cared for the character. And that's the thing I think Kirman does best. He creates characters and makes you care for them. That's not an easy thing to do and I don't think it should be undervalued.

 

Rape is so entertaining! Do you really just not understand the argument at all?

[nikocb]

It's a plot device, plain and simple. Girl in the fridge to the nth degree. It's as cheap of a ploy as the guy hiding in the shower with the knife. Lazy...

 

Sometimes I can't tell when people are being serious or sarcastic online but assuming you're serious...

 

 

It is pretty much refrigeration.

 

Michonne is a vastly lesser developed character, but it doesn't have anything to do with the rape scene being cut out. It has more to do with the producer for Season 2 and 3. He played played nicely with AMC but had no idea what the hell he was doing in translating the story and characters to television. He was finally replaced this season, and in my opinion, we have some of the best written, directed and... well...produced episodes of the series.

 

There is still a scene depicting the Governor's exerting his dominance over a woman through somewhat sexual means, but it is much much tamer than the comic and done more to mess with Glenn than anything else.

 

I'm getting more interested in watching the show now, just to see how they can take the comic and make something a bit different out of it.

 

I must be a simpleton, because I love every aspect of the story. It's lazy? Who gives a mess if it's lazy? It's supposed to be entertaining, not introspective or profound.

I know that I was effected emotionally by those scenes in the book.. because I thoroughly cared for the character. And that's the thing I think Kirman does best. He creates characters and makes you care for them. That's not an easy thing to do and I don't think it should be undervalued.

 

Rape is so entertaining! Do you really just not understand the argument at all?

 

I'm not saying the rape is supposed to be entertaining.. I'm saying the experience of reading the story as a whole is for entertainment purposes.

[retrothecollector]

I could of sworn James or anyone would come in and snipe that .

 

I only went to $675

 

People are sleeping right now.

 

Or has the bubble burst?!?!!

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Walking-Dead-Original-Art-Page-Issue-34-Page-7-Kirkman-Adlard1-/121206728104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c387be5a8&nma=true&si=5MkGoFc5%252BKV8OFTLK2fXmdaQ4F8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

that one? nice pick up!

 

 

There's the piece. Man!

No I didn't get that one. I was sleeping that night. James got that one. I got this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370951256384?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

 

That was me you outbid...I was bidding on it just not as strong as you.

 

Nice page and congrats!

 

mathew

It looked like you were bidding strong, you had 2 bids back to back. I figured if someone was placing 2 bids like that, their second bid was a higher. That's typically what I do. I thought I was sure to be outbid.

Check it.... If Mark had that page up, it'd be around $1000+/- There are no zombie pages for sale pre-115. I don't know what's going on, maybe it's xmas. Me, I'm just selfish. No presents for anyone. BAHHUMBUG

 

[Phill the Governor]

No. You should expect to see 10 pages (less than half an issue) devoted to a rape revenge scene.

 

The rape revenge was the laziest writing I can even imagine and I don't think I should have to expect that (lazy writing) in any book.

 

So Rape is a lazy, brainless plot device?

 

In this case, most definitely 100% yes.

 

I'm not the first person to say this stuff. There are loads of blogs etc on rape as a plot device. Here's one example: http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/can-we-stop-using-rape-as-a-plot-device-20130812-2rrwh.html. They usually say it much better than me. Or look up how much flack Mark Millar got for the rape in Kick 2 or Hitgirl or whatever it was.

 

It's 10 pages. And Michonne throws up and cries during it. She didn't want to have to do it. That's a plot device that builds character development

 

Builds character development? Because she threw up and cried? Kirkman needed to have her raped in order to build her character? Has the show suffered from having this cut out? Is Michonne a lesser developed character?

 

Walking Dead is "Suggested for Mature Readers". Take the good with the bad. Or in your case you can not take the bad (content). No worries.

 

There was nothing mature about what I'm complaining about. That's my problem with it.

 

 

All I got from the above is something along the lines of: "See! Other people are offended by rape as a plot device too!"

 

 

I'll just reiterate what Doug said:

 

 

 

 

[Katchoo]

So is there ever a time, in your opinion, that using rape in a story isn't lazy or hacky?

Why don't I ever hear about Stieg Larsson getting criticized for his rape in TGWTDT?

 

Having rape in a story could be ok if you're commenting on sexism or perhaps showing the very real devastating effects of rape (but who would want to watch that? not very "entertaining"). It could start with having the rapist as not some evil monster of the film but actually just the normal guy next door. I don't know if that would be too dull or too uncomfortable for people. It's hard to answer because I can't think of any book/movie/tv show that's done it in an earnest, intelligent way.

 

I haven't seen or read TGWTDT and I don't know if Stieg Larsson got flack for it or not. The media only ever latches on to a particular story every now and then. I've no idea why some are ignored and others are criticised. Mark Millar was an easy target cos he's always getting criticised for something.

[bffnut]

No I didn't get that one. I was sleeping that night. James got that one. I got this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370951256384?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

 

Dang, nice page with Michonne, Rick, Abe AND zombies!

[Katchoo]

All I got from the above is something along the lines of: "See! Other people are offended by rape as a plot device too!"

 

 

I'll just reiterate what Doug said:

 

 

Really? I posted a link mainly because you said "So Rape is a lazy, brainless plot device?" like it was the first time you had ever heard the claim, and also because, if you were truly interested in it rather than just arguing blah blah on a forum then you could go and read a piece that is well thought out.

 

BREAKING NEWS: Man thinks rape of woman as plot device is not offensive.

 

BREAKING NEWS: Man doesn't understand what the problem of using the rape of a woman as a plot device is. "So what if it's lazy writing?" he says. "It's meant to be entertaining" he says.

[dhurley]

[Phill the Governor]

All I got from the above is something along the lines of: "See! Other people are offended by rape as a plot device too!"

 

 

I'll just reiterate what Doug said:

 

 

Really? I posted a link mainly because you said "So Rape is a lazy, brainless plot device?" like it was the first time you had ever heard the claim, and also because, if you were truly interested in it rather than just arguing blah blah on a forum then you could go and read a piece that is well thought out.

 

BREAKING NEWS: Man thinks rape of woman as plot device is not offensive.

 

BREAKING NEWS: Man doesn't understand what the problem of using the rape of a woman as a plot device is. "So what if it's lazy writing?" he says. "It's meant to be entertaining" he says.

 

 

It's impolite to assume things

 

I've studied gender in film & literature.

 

I've seen The Last House on the Left. I can think of far more extreme examples where writers use rape as a plot device.

 

Like I said, and I'll reiterate yet again, you have to take the good and the bad. Especially in a genre like horror.

[JS]

I could of sworn James or anyone would come in and snipe that .

 

I only went to $675

 

People are sleeping right now.

 

Or has the bubble burst?!?!!

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Walking-Dead-Original-Art-Page-Issue-34-Page-7-Kirkman-Adlard1-/121206728104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c387be5a8&nma=true&si=5MkGoFc5%252BKV8OFTLK2fXmdaQ4F8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

that one? nice pick up!

 

 

There's the piece. Man!

No I didn't get that one. I was sleeping that night. James got that one. I got this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/370951256384?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

 

That was me you outbid...I was bidding on it just not as strong as you.

 

Nice page and congrats!

 

mathew

It looked like you were bidding strong, you had 2 bids back to back. I figured if someone was placing 2 bids like that, their second bid was a higher. That's typically what I do. I thought I was sure to be outbid.

Check it.... If Mark had that page up, it'd be around $1000+/- There are no zombie pages for sale pre-115. I don't know what's going on, maybe it's xmas. Me, I'm just selfish. No presents for anyone. BAHHUMBUG

 

 

That's a great piece!! 610 is a steal on that.

[nikocb]

BREAKING NEWS: Man doesn't understand what the problem of using the rape of a woman as a plot device is. "So what if it's lazy writing?" he says. "It's meant to be entertaining" he says.

 

You really missed my point.. Or you just didn't read what I wrote. I'm saying the story, as a whole, is being written for entertainment purposes. It's not always going to be philosophical or deep. I also said that I was emotionally affected by the rape scenes, so please stop painting me to be an insensitive, misogynistic, rape enthusiast.

 

[Garf]

Something I was discussing on PM which is kind of related (or touches on this) is that I can't understand the interest in these scenes when it comes to the art. There are some less than savoury moments depicting children having been beheaded, rape, mother and daughter shot, torture and generally assorted nasty endings to quite a few characters without naming them all. I just don't get why there is still a high value on these pieces when they are essentially taken outside of the context of the story. It's just a page containing only this content. Yuk!

 

But comic art isn't collected outside of the context of the story. Most comic art is if you're looking at it from a purely aesthetic POV, but some of that art is highly sought after as a memento of a story the collector has interest in.

 

True true... I was only considering one side of the coin there regarding the asthetics.

[Katchoo]

I've seen The Last House on the Left. I can think of far more extreme examples where writers use rape as a plot device.

 

Not sure what your point is?

 

Like I said, and I'll reiterate yet again, you have to take the good and the bad. Especially in a genre like horror.

 

I don't know what you mean by that? Why should I have to accept sexism? Why should I have to accept the sensationalistic use of rape in a book just for a bit of shock factor? I don't even know if that's what you mean by taking "the good and the bad".

 

BREAKING NEWS: Man doesn't understand what the problem of using the rape of a woman as a plot device is. "So what if it's lazy writing?" he says. "It's meant to be entertaining" he says.

 

You really missed my point.. Or you just didn't read what I wrote. I'm saying the story, as a whole, is being written for entertainment purposes. It's not always going to be philosophical or deep. I also said that I was emotionally affected by the rape scenes, so please stop painting me to be an insensitive, misogynistic, rape enthusiast.

 

If you're going to include rape in a story I'd hope you'd have something intelligent to say. You know, a point of including it other than for entertainment purposes. Otherwise it's not unreasonable for it to be called lazy, sensationalistic, gratuitous, sexist refrigeration and appealing to the lowest common denominator. When I claimed it was lazy writing earlier you pretty much said "So what? It's meant to be entertaining."

 

Making you feel "emotional" by throwing in a rape scene is the work of a hack.

[ThoseBackPages]

116b

 

https://www.imagecomics.com/content/view/the-walking-deads-new-action-packed-story-arc-is-infectious

[awakeintheashes]

116b

 

https://www.imagecomics.com/content/view/the-walking-deads-new-action-packed-story-arc-is-infectious

 

Wow

[dhurley]

116b

 

https://www.imagecomics.com/content/view/the-walking-deads-new-action-packed-story-arc-is-infectious

 

Wow even with that Hack writing the books seems to be going strong

[Phill the Governor]

I've seen The Last House on the Left. I can think of far more extreme examples where writers use rape as a plot device.

 

Not sure what your point is?

 

That most people can read this type of content and move on. I know it's instinctive to be against bodily penetration in any way, but hey this is the Horror genre. Kirkman creates an "off screen" rape scene and follows it up with a classic revenge scene that is shown, in graphic detail, to the reader. This isn't a story revolving around rape.

 

Like I said, and I'll reiterate yet again, you have to take the good and the bad. Especially in a genre like horror.

I don't know what you mean by that? Why should I have to accept sexism? Why should I have to accept the sensationalistic use of rape in a book just for a bit of shock factor? I don't even know if that's what you mean by taking "the good and the bad".

 

Sexism?

 

What if it were Glen instead of Michonne? Would it be sexist then? To me there is no difference. Kirkman must hate children too since there's that scene with two children with their heads cut off, right?

 

Making you feel "emotional" by throwing in a rape scene is the work of a hack.

 

Putting down a story because of a rape scene is the quality of a lazy reader.

 

See, I'm entitled to my opinion too.

 

[Katchoo]

116b

 

https://www.imagecomics.com/content/view/the-walking-deads-new-action-packed-story-arc-is-infectious

 

Wow even with that Hack writing the books seems to be going strong