Avengers: Squadron Sininster/Supreme 1st Appearance(s) Confirmation

[BronzeBruce13]

OK I need to confirm this so I can get my pal Brian to submit this for consideration in the next OS. I realize this is (for the most part) an "On the Cusp" BA (Very Late SA) issue, but it ends in bronze with 85.

 

I need someone with raw copies of Avengers 69, 70 and 85 to assist.

 

I've always been a Squadron Sinister/Supreme Fan, particularly Hyperion and became a bigger fan in recent years with the various quality modern series' based on the team and some of individuals.

 

I believe OS has not properly Identified the team (and individual) First Appearances correctly... or at all.

 

This is my "understanding" of how the Team/Individuals "should be" correctly recognized, but obviously I could be off and need confirmation.

 

Avengers 69: 1st Brief Appearance of the Squadron Sinister and individual members.

 

Avengers 70: 1st Full Appearance of the Squadron Sinister and most of the individual team members (ex; "evil" Hyperion/Nighthawk, etc.)

 

Avengers 85: 1st Full Appearance of the Squadron Supreme (the "Good Guy" version) and most of the individual team members (ex; "good" Hyperion/Nighthawk*) Also... is the "good" Nighthawk the one that joined the Defenders?... or the "evil" version who changed his ways?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[joe_collector]

That's it.

 

The Nighthawk who joined the Defenders was the evil one who changed his ways.

[cd4ever]

I always thought Avengers 71 was the first Nighthawk.

[joe_collector]

From the last page of Avengers 69:

[cd4ever]

From the last page of Avengers 69:

(thumbs u Back to school for me.

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks Vince... a good start to ironing this out.

 

Avengers 69:

1st Brief Appearance of the Squadron Sinister in the last panel.

1st Brief Appearance of Members:

• "Evil/Bad" Dr. Spectrum

• "Evil/Bad" Hyperion

• "Evil/Bad" Nighthawk (who later joins the Defenders)

• "Evil/Bad" Whizzer

 

Avengers 70:

1st Full Appearance and Origin of the Squadron Sinister

1st Full Appearance of Members:

• "Evil/Bad" Dr. Spectrum

• "Evil/Bad" Hyperion

• "Evil/Bad" Nighthawk (who later joins the Defenders)

• "Evil/Bad" Whizzer

 

Avengers 85:

1st Full Appearance of the Squadron Supreme

1st Full Appearance of Members:

• "Good Guy" Dr. Spectrum

• "Good Guy" Hyperion

• "Good Guy" Nighthawk (NOT the Defender oddly enough)

• "Good Guy" Whizzer

• "Good Guy" American Eagle

• "Good Guy" Tom Thumb

• "Good Guy" Hawkeye (later the Golden Archer, not the Avengers Hawkeye/Golden Archer)

• "Good Gal" Lady Lark

(Note: No "Evil/Bad" Version of American Eagle, Tom Thumb, Hawkeye/Golden Archer or Lady Lark have appeared at this point)

[joe_collector]

In Avengers 85, there were "good" versions of:

 

Nighthawk

American Eagle

Tom Thumb

Hawkeye (later Golden Archer)

Lady Lark

Dr Spectrum

Hyperion

Whizzer

 

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks

 

Hawkeye?

 

Didn't the real Hawkeye briefly change his name to the Golden Archer in a 70's Cap issue in the 180's. Any connection?

[joe_collector]

I have no idea when the Golden Archer changed his name, but Captain America 179 was a year before Avengers 141, where I first saw the Golden Archer of the SS.

 

I think you could call Cap 179 a prototype issue.

[BronzeBruce13]

Do you have a Avengers 85?

If so, were the appearances of the newer members you listed significant enough to be called "full"... or were some "brief"

[joe_collector]

No, they were all in there, several panels/pages each, everyone got some lines, fighting the Avengers in their HQ, etc.

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks Vince... with your input looks like we got most of it nailed down.

 

Avengers 70 is indeed a more significant key than its given credit for IMO. Right now OS only credits it as "Orgin" of the Squadron Sinister when in fact its the First Full Appearance of the Squadron Sinister and those (4) Characters... and also considering that version of Nighthawk became a regular Defender/Character in the Marvel Universe... it should also have additional notoriety as Nighthawk's First Full Appearance.

 

If we wanted to push it further, I suppose we could try and list the additional First Apps of the later arriving "good" and "evil" Squadroneers. Do you (or anyone else) know what the next chronological appearances are so we can look into it?

 

Since the Squadrons were mimicks of the DC's JLA, there were many more knock off's to call on. I believe both groups memberships "expanded" in later appearances.

[joe_collector]

Avengers 70 is indeed a more significant key than its given credit for IMO.

 

Wasn't that the first article I wrote on my site?

 

And as for further members, I think American Eagle changed his name to Cap'n Hawk and Amphibion showed up in the Avengers saga from 141-148.

[BronzeBruce13]

Unfortunately, I was not around when you had your site.

 

Can you repost your article here? I'd love to read it.

I didn't realize I was rehashing one of your old arguments, but I sure as hell agree with the premis.

[BronzeBruce13]

Wait a minute... If the Squadron Sinister version of Nighthawk became good and joined the Defenders, why is the Squadron Supreme version missing from the line up? Don't tell me he became Cap'n Crunch Hawk?

 

BTW... I have those issues in the new collection I just bought so I'll be reading them in the next few days... if I can find them quickly enough.

 

And as for further members, I think American Eagle changed his name to Cap'n Hawk and Amphibion showed up in the Avengers saga from 141-148.

[joe_collector]

I honestly think there was a real grey zone at Marvel for the Squadron Sinister/Supreme and they silently decided to merge them into one.

[BronzeBruce13]

Now I really have to read 85 (and the 140's run) to see if there's any indication that the Squadron Supreme is a "separate" entity from Squadron Sinister OR... if they are just "attitude adjusted" versions of the original "Sinister" characters.

[gaz973]

Now I really have to read 85 (and the 140's run) to see if there's any indication that the Squadron Supreme is a "separate" entity from Squadron Sinister OR... if they are just "attitude adjusted" versions of the original "Sinister" characters.

 

The Squadron Sinister and Squadron Supreme have always been completely different entities. The Sinisters were created on this Earth by the Grandmaster and the Supremes were a pre-existing alternate Earth super team that it was later revealed that the Grandmaster based his team on.

 

Avengers # 85 is the first appearance of the Squadron Supreme.

The Squadron Supreme appeared in the Avengers 140's run.

The Squadron Sinister appeared in Defenders (#14 & 15 I think?) which culminated in Nighthawk becoming a Defender.

The Whizzer from Squadron Sinister later became Speed Demon (a Spider Man enemy) and later still joined the Thunderbolts for a time.

[joe_collector]

The Sinisters were created on this Earth by the Grandmaster and the Supremes were a pre-existing alternate Earth super team that it was later revealed that the Grandmaster based his team on.

 

Man, you gotta love retcons.

 

The Grandmaster runs around stealing, threatening, kidnapping and variously forcing superheroes to fight him, yet he somehow "re-creates" a team he could easily subjugate to his will.

 

And Bruce realizes they were initially created as two distinct teams (that's what this post is all about) but is asking more about the late-Bronze trend to conveniently forget there ever were alternate "bad" versions and make the Squadron Supreme the villains, like they were in Avengers 141-149.

[BronzeBruce13]

Now I really have to read 85 (and the 140's run) to see if there's any indication that the Squadron Supreme is a "separate" entity from Squadron Sinister OR... if they are just "attitude adjusted" versions of the original "Sinister" characters.

 

The Squadron Sinister and Squadron Supreme have always been completely different entities. The Sinisters were created on this Earth by the Grandmaster and the Supremes were a pre-existing alternate Earth super team that it was later revealed that the Grandmaster based his team on.

 

Avengers # 85 is the first appearance of the Squadron Supreme.

The Squadron Supreme appeared in the Avengers 140's run.

The Squadron Sinister appeared in Defenders (#14 & 15 I think?) which culminated in Nighthawk becoming a Defender.

The Whizzer from Squadron Sinister later became Speed Demon (a Spider Man enemy) and later still joined the Thunderbolts for a time.

 

Thanks for that Gaz... very helpful.

I knew about Speed Demon from reading Thunderbolts but had no idea which team he came from... and the whole Ultimate Squadron is a completely different with many more characters I'm not sure ever existed Pre-Ultimate. I have not read the books you and Vince mentioned yet to get more insight on when the other team members arrived and joined which team.