Refrigeration to store comics?

[insanebidder-migration]

FF,

 

Well, I placed two new containers of Damprid in that one-comic box in the fridge and since it's been only 2 hours, I'll have to wait till' tomorrow to bring you the update. I know that, right now, small amounts of condensation are forming on the glass part of the hygrometer within the box. However, as I learned from the comic book box in the closet, it takes 2-3 days before Damprid "really" starts working. It seems to need those two-three days to get primed for some strange reason. Anyway, I'll let you know the report tomorrow. Right now, within the box it reads 49 degrees and a 58% RH level.....Outside of the box within the fridge it reads around the same temp. but has a 70 percent humidity level. Not sure if the difference in RH from inside/outside of the box has to do with the Damprid already or if it's just because it's a more closed environment.

What interests me are the two lower drawers where you put vegetables. There's two "Humidity control" levers. When set to "Low humidity, believe it or not a slot OPENS to allow air to enter. Whereas when set to "High Humidity" the lever closes the hole. Would this mean it'd be more beneficial to have one small opening within the comic box itself? PS--Although pertaining to photos, I found this link, which was kind of interesting....

 

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/HW_Book_19_of_20_HiRes_v1a.pdf

 

Brent

 

[fantastic_four]

What interests me are the two lower drawers where you put vegetables. There's two "Humidity control" levers. When set to "Low humidity, believe it or not a slot OPENS to allow air to enter. Whereas when set to "High Humidity" the lever closes the hole. Would this mean it'd be more beneficial to have one small opening within the comic box itself?

 

I would guess closing the hole creates a sealed area separate from where the refrigerant gets to, meaning the temperature is higher in there and that the humidity is higher as well, whereas opening the hole lets refrigerant in to drop the temp and turn the humidity to liquid moisture. I doubt it matters much since you won't be opening the comic box open to let humidity in like you would the vegetable drawer to get food out of it.

[fantastic_four]

I doubt it matters much since you won't be opening the comic box open to let humidity in like you would the vegetable drawer to get food out of it.

 

Speaking of that, every time you open the fridge door, you'll be letting a bunch of humidity back in that will take time to condensate. At some point you'll want to try leaving the door shut for several days to see what the humidity is like after that amount of time has passed...I would think all the gaseous water would turn to liquid after a while and humidity would stay low from then on until the fridge is opened again.

 

So...in the name of science...EAT CANNED FOOD FOR THE NEXT WEEK OR SO!

[insanebidder-migration]

FF,

 

Okay, what do you think about heat-sealing the comics within Mylar before placing them into the comic box within the fridge (And lined with Microchamber between the front and back covers)? Although some warn against encapsulation, "if" a person was able to maintain a 50 degree temp. and a 40 percent humidity level within a fridge using an enclosed box and Damprid, would the life-span that was cut short due to encapsulation really be that significant? After all, the preservation index states that a 50 degree temp. and 40 percent humidity could potentially make an object last 233 years before deterioration is apparent. Even if that figure was cut in half, that'd still be way longer than either one of us would live.

I'm really starting to wonder how to combat the condensation issue now. If only I could find that article which discussed the limited permeability of Mylar.

 

Brent

 

[insanebidder-migration]

Hahaha. We need someone with a separate fridge unit that doesn't contain food. I can tell right now. Either that or maybe we could try and get the Government to give us a grant. Yeah, right!

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

I'd probably wrap the entire box in some kind of plastic. Gaseous water can pass through plastic, but liquid water shouldn't be able to, so it shouldn't matter what type of plastic you use. And I agree, the complete encapsulation shouldn't be much of an issue if the temperature and humidity are really that low.

[OldSchoolTerry]

FF-

 

I didn't care about the comics in the attic much at the time, but I recently have gotten back into comics, and took those comics downstairs as well, and they're now stored properly in boxes with my better books. I was just surprised that they're hadn't been much damage at all in those 3 years they were up in the attic. So, they should remain in good shape until they get into my kids' grubby little mitts...

 

I was just trying to inject some stupidity into the very scientific conversation

 

I actually think this refrigerator topic is a fascinating one, and will be waiting eagerly to hear insanebidder's results.

[insanebidder-migration]

Well, here's the current results.....

 

I had placed a regular Hygrometer/Thermometer unit in the box along with 2 containers of Damprid in addition to my new digital hygrometer/thermometer. This morning I had a 40 degree temperature on both units, but the humidity reading on the regular one was 40 percent, yet the digital one read 32 percent, which is 3 percent below the lowest level it really should be "if" my digital one is in fact more accurate. Everything I've read thus far said we should have between 35-50 percent humidity, which would mean 42-43 percent humidity would probably be more ideal. This means I was 10 percent lower than I should be. Therefore, I removed one Damprid container out of the box to see what happens. Not wanting to waste any Mylar for the moment since I screwed one up last night trying to heat seal it using a standard kitchen heat Deni-sealer (Not hot enough to seal Mylar apparently), I just put the "junk comic" within a sealed Polybag. As of this morning, although rather cold, no condensation! Anyway, also note that my refrigerator setting is also on its coldest setting right now. If I were to raise the temperature, the humidity would probably go up to a more respectable 40-43 percent level. If removing one Damprid container doesn't do the trick I'll try that next and see what happens.....

 

PS--Also note that the comic box is in the lower left of the fridge. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that the closer a box would be stacked to the top (Unfortunately, can't test this particular theory out) and the closer it is to the "vents" that the higher the humidity would be with the boxes closer to the top.

 

Brent

 

[insanebidder-migration]

PS--Here's the response I received from Mr. Reynold Jay.....

 

Hi Brent,

This goes way beyond what I do here. If you do all this, you'll be in great shape. All the more expensive aspects of this could probably be skipped and the result would be much the same. The 40 degrees is the most imprtant part of all of this and anything to kep moisture and light from touching your comics is what you want. Also sit everything FLAT, not upright. The chloride sounds great, although the frige unit will keep unwanted mositure away from your chamber. The chloride is cheap and is really a good idea.

 

With 40 degrees temp, you should be okay when you bring to room temp. Big problems is bringing books from zero to room temp. as condensation will take place.

Keep in touch on any of this. It's really not high tech and easy to do. I let Michingan freezing temps do the work here in an unheated warehouse.

 

RJ

 

[insanebidder-migration]

By the way, if there's an ideal way to do this and someone who would have more time and space in their fridge could test our theories on a long-term basis, once done this would proably be the "ideal" fridge to have...........

 

http://www.absak.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/26_60_114/products_id/693?osCsid=5e2309515d812449dd9cc810872e99ea

 

It's basically a chest refrigerator. I'm not sure what the interior dimensions are, but the exterior ones are 46.9Wx26.2Dx34.5H

 

4 long comic boxes stacked "might" work in that. Not sure on that at the moment as I'm about to leave in a minute or so and don't have time to check the dimensions of a long comic box.

 

Brent

 

[insanebidder-migration]

Latest results.....

 

After seeing the humidity so low, I removed one of the containers of Damprid. Now, here's the latest results....

 

1 o'clock: Analog registers 40 degrees and digital reads 41.7, but the analog RH reads 50% RH whereas the digital gage measures 35%. Kind of a difference. I'm assuming the digital one is much more accurate.

 

4 o'clock: Analog registers 40 degrees and digital registers 41 degrees. Analog reads 52% RH whereas the digital reads 36% RH. As long as the digtal is correct, I still think that's too low. However, since I want the Damprid to remove any "new" moisture that enters the box, I have decided to increase the temperature a little bit of the fridge unit itself. I raised it to level 4. It was on level 5, which is the coldest. I'm trying for a 42-45 degree seting with a 42-43% RH digitally. That should be good enough for comics "and" my food.

 

PS--Still no water vapor on the comic's bag. Outside of the box, on some of the glass I see a thin layer of condensation and I know it's there because when I rub it my wipe mark rubs off a layer of something. However, it doesn't really feel "wet" wet. Anyway, nothing on the comic bag inside of the box or on either of the measuring devices, so that's all good.

 

PS#2--I know the Damprid has got to be doing "something", since the RH shot up 4 percent once I removed one of the containers within the comic box itself

 

Brent

 

[insanebidder-migration]

FF,

 

All day with 1 Damprid in the box, fridge level set to 4 cold (Recommended is 3 for this fridge).....

 

11:00pm Eastern time....

 

Digital: 42.4 degrees and 36% RH

Analog: 42 degrees and 50% RH

 

Condensation--None on the sealed polybag or on the measuring devices. However, when I remove one of the measuring devices I "do" get a little condensation on the glass part.

 

I just moved the fridge temp. level to level 3. I'll let you know tomorrow what that reading is.

 

As soon as I get around 45 degrees and 42-43 percent RH on the digital on a regular basis, that's when I'll not open the box anymore, leave the box alone for a week, and then take it out, quickly record the temperature/humidity while still inside the fridge, put the lid back on and let the box warm up to room temperature outside the fridge. Then I'll re-open the box and then take out the comic to see what the results are as far as moisture outside the bag, inside the bag, and inside or around the comic will be. (Hopefully none!) Granted, it's not exactly a "long-term" test, but the space in my fridge is really limited right now and it's ticking my girlfriend off a little. Some people just don't appreciate science!

 

Brent

 

[OldSchoolTerry]

When you get that Nobel Prize for discovering the optimum way to preserve comics in their pristine state for hundreds of years, maybe your girlfriend will appreciate your scientific sacrifices.....

[insanebidder-migration]

Well, I'm working on it but I can't promise anything.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

Been unwell and away for a bit. I have to say this is developing into a fascinating thread! I have to wonder if the "thawing out" environment will have an impact. I mean, the books are stored in an apparantly nicely controlled environment but the ficus has been mainly on how they are stored...so I really am interested in the conditions under which the books are brought back to a "normal" environment. Suppose the fridge is in NY or MA and the books are brought out in the summer with high temp and humidity? Or hight emp and humidity but a/c cool and high humidity inside? Or a/c cool and dehumidied low temp/humidity? Or in the winter with low temp/humidity outside but warm temp/low humid inside. Or warm temp/higher (via humidifier) inside?

 

Please keep in mind I am not scoffing. I think this is a VERY interesting thread - just wanted to offer another perspective.

 

PS - for even trying this, Insane! Really good stuff!

[Mephisto]

Been unwell and away for a bit. I have to say this is developing into a fascinating thread! I have to wonder if the "thawing out" environment will have an impact. I mean, the books are stored in an apparantly nicely controlled environment but the ficus has been mainly on how they are stored...so I really am interested in the conditions under which the books are brought back to a "normal" environment. Suppose the fridge is in NY or MA and the books are brought out in the summer with high temp and humidity? Or hight emp and humidity but a/c cool and high humidity inside? Or a/c cool and dehumidied low temp/humidity? Or in the winter with low temp/humidity outside but warm temp/low humid inside. Or warm temp/higher (via humidifier) inside?

 

Please keep in mind I am not scoffing. I think this is a VERY interesting thread - just wanted to offer another perspective.

 

PS - for even trying this, Insane! Really good stuff!

 

That is exactly the thing I was most worried about. I was actually thinking about this post last night. I live in Upstate NY and I was reading DKR over the summer. Everytime I took the TPB out of the AC rooms upstairs and into the living room downstairs the book's cover would be so wet I would use a paper towel to wipe it off. Usually this only happened to the think plastic coded cover and the interior pages never really seemed to get wet. I don't know it seems that if you could gradually have the temperature rise prior to taking to book out it would be less likely for the book to get an wetness on it.

[PovertyRow]

. I don't know it seems that if you could gradually have the temperature rise prior to taking to book out it would be less likely for the book to get an wetness on it.

 

Exactly my concern as well. There is a process of impregnating paper with a methyl-cellulose soultion under a vacuum (vaccum? vaccumm? ) environemnt wherein the ppaer is place in a vac ( ) chamber, the air pumped out, and the meth-cel solution drawn in under the prressure or a near-zero vac environemnt. After a waiting perion, the books are "freeze-dried" - freeze drying being the process where something wet is made dry by by-passing the temp/state where the solution goes from frozen to liquid - it basically goes from frozen to evaporated.

 

As you say, one has to wonder how the ambient environment may impace the book (well, I said it too, but you elucidated).

[blowout]

I must say, the whole process sounds fraught with potential disaster and far too stressful to get involved with.

I for one won't be putting my books in a fridge anytime soon...and you wouldn't catch Edgar Church doing it either.

[PovertyRow]

I must say, the whole process sounds fraught with potential disaster and far too stressful to get involved with.

I for one won't be putting my books in a fridge anytime soon...and you wouldn't catch Edgar Church doing it either.

 

Now Blowout - remember my semi-mantra! Experiment with cheap books from the quarter bin! This is an ideal experiment and by gum I am gonna try bit too! Soon as I hit a quarter bin (seriously)!

[blowout]

Yep, take it easy with those pricey books POV.