Refrigeration to store comics?

[PovertyRow]

Yep, take it easy with those pricey books POV.

 

 

Nice thing? A cheapie book is usually composed of the same materials as a pricey book from same publisher/year! Makes for great fun!

[insanebidder-migration]

As for re-acclimation, that of course brings up many interesting possibilities. On one hand, since the books won't exactly be at a 32 F. or lower temperature, ice crystal formation within/on the book itself shouldn't be much of a problem. Basically, defrosting from a fridge shouldn't be as hard as defrosting from a freezer. However, in the unlikely even that problems arise, this is why I suggest placing the comics in 2 protective elements. First and foremost, I believe some kind of barrier must be present around the comic book to prevent condensation. Although many, including the LOC, argue against encapsulation because acidic byproducts won't have any place to go, I believe that the lower temperature environment would slow the reaction process down so much that it shouldn't be as much of a concern. Here's why......

 

At 72 degrees and 50 % RH a comic basically won't show much deterioration until around 33 years according to the Preservation calculator.

 

Now then, at 50 degrees and 42% RH (LOC recommends for paper between 35-50 percent, which basically means, in my opinion, 42% RH is an ideal setting) paper won't show much deterioration until 199 years pass because of the slow natural aging rate. Although I don't have the figures on this yet, if sealing a comic in a protective barrier decreases a life-span of paper by as much as 50%, then that still means the life span of paper stored in this way in the second climate could potentially last 99 years, which would still be 66 years more than a 72 degree 50% RH environment.

 

So, how do we encapsulate without fear of water vapor transmission? Interesting predicament. Here's what I'm trying. A comic in Mylar, then the Mylar placed in a material that comes with this kitchen "Deni-sealer" that I have, then as much air vacuumed out of it that I can and then the outer plastic heat-sealed.

 

Now, onto the second method of keeping away condensation--placing the comic itself within a comic box that is placed within the fridge. I believe this is important not only to prevent condensation, but also because, when acclimating, one could just remove the box, leave the comics within, and then the box will warm up at a MUCH slower rate to equalize with the outside air temperature as opposed to just removing the comics from the box and seeing instant moisture,

 

As for my current results, I must say that they are quite interesting.

 

Digitally, here's what I've found out......

 

The RH on either the top or bottom portions of the fridge, at no matter what refrigeration level setting, have been dangerously low. RH's have been in the range of 29-33 percent. Although moisture often forms on and around things, according to what I've read and seen, the majority of this is formed when we "open" the fridge. All modern-day upright fridge's are basically frost-free (Larger ones, that is). Because of this, the humidity is basically sucked out at an advanced level. Which explains those readings and which means, of course, placing a comic (Even sealed) directly on a fridge shelf might not be such a good idea. On the other hand, in a completely sealed environment such as sealed Mylar/Baggie, heat sealed, etc., RH "might" not be much of a concern. Not sure about that one yet.

 

Now then, "within" a comic box. I had previously attempted to place containers of Damprid within the comic box. However, this was a moot point. Although the humidity levels within the sealed comic box were still higher than the conditions outside of the box, the Damprid lowered the humidity too much. As for current results, I'm still tabulating them and will get back with everyone once I've come to a consensus.

 

One note of supreme interest in this experiment is the fact that, below the fridge in the "vegetables compartment" there's humidity level switches. When placed on "high" humidity, the switch completely closes the box, medium humidity the switch opens a rectangular hole 1/2 way, and low humidity it opens the slot completely. Because of this, and the fact that (When set on the 1/2 way mark) my digital reader reads 44 degrees and 43% RH on a consistent basis, I've formulated the following:

 

1. Open containers in a fridge have low humidity

2. Closed containers in a fridge have high humidity

3. Containers with holes or ones that are partially open half somewhere between the middle, which is of course what we're going for.

 

What does this mean? Perhaps, by placing a small hole within the side of the comic box, testing, and then slowly increasing the size as needed, I will be able to find the perfect middle-ground that I need.

 

However, then another question needs to be answered. Although protected from condensation via Mylar/heat sealed bag, even if the surrounding area is perfect, how are the conditions "within" the bag? Lower humidity, higher humidity, lower temperatures, higher temperatures? I need a science major for this one, as I have no means of measuring the inside of a sealed bag, unless I attempt to vacuum/heat seal my digital hygrometer within the comic bag itself, which I suppose us possible. Anyway, that's all I have to report thus far.

 

Brent

 

 

[insanebidder-migration]

Latest information.....

 

It appears as though some of the figures given above pertaining to digital readings were a little premature. My latest samples have been taken while leaving the fridge alone for quite a few hours at a time. No matter what temperature setting I have the refrigerator on, and no matter whether I place the digital hygrometer within the comic box, outside of the comic box, or within the vegetable "humidity" chamber (On low "or" high), although the temperature changes the RH rarely moves by a couple of degrees. It generally hovers at around 32-33%, which is not really good for books IMHO. The longer a book remains in an under 35% RH the more likely the pages will become brittle after time.

Now then, what is causing the absence of humidity in the fridge, when people far and wide still believe that tons of humidity exists? Well, in essence, any humidity you see in a modern upright "larger" fridge is basically what happens once you open the door and the warmer air comes into contact with the cooler surfaces. RH, by itself in a frost-free refrigerator, is really really low. That's basically one of the reasons a frost-free fridge "is" a frost-free fridge. The low humidity means no frost.

So, what does this mean as far as using a frost-free fridge for paper items and comics? Impossible "unless" one placed a large container of opened water in the fridge, thereby humidifying the inside of the FF fridge. However, finding the right amount of water and the constant replacing would be a pain in the royal butt.

Now, not all is lost. The smaller, more portable (AKA-"Dorm" fridges) are generally not frost-free. Frost does generally accumulate on the insides of some of these, even if the inside temp. is above freezing. Now, not having one, I am unsure whether the humidity levels in these are "astoundingly high" or at the levels we want. If they're astounding, I believe placing a couple of containers of Damp-rid within a small comic container would lower the RH to a desirable level. Just like, in my comic box in a dark closet, two containers of Damp-rid have lowered the RH by 18%. From 60% to 42% on a consistent basis.

Therefore, testing of a non-frost-free fridge would be our next best option. Also, it would have to be something "a little larger" than a really small one, since a comic box would no doubt "not" fit inside a really small dorm fridge. Yet we "need" some kind of protective container for the comics "with" enough room for some Damprid containers. (If needed)

If "anyone" has one of these dorm-sized fridges and a digital hygrometer, please let me know! Although you may not be able to fit a comic box within one, I'd love to know what a 24 hour humidity reading would tell us about a non-frost-free fridge in general. So, looks like I have to pass on the reigns of experimentation to someone else......

 

Brent

 

[OldSchoolTerry]

Insanebidder-

 

I'm sure everyone appreciates the work you've done here. I know you've really opened my mind to new storage possibilities for my books.

I was curious, were you ultimately planning to store your raw books in the fridge, or your slabs, or both? I was just wondering how differently mylars and the CGC holders would be affected....

 

BTW, hopefully your girlfriend will cut you some slack, as she'll now have room to store food in your refrigerator.

[fantastic_four]

It generally hovers at around 32-33%, which is not really good for books IMHO. The longer a book remains in an under 35% RH the more likely the pages will become brittle after time.

 

Are you sure of this? Most houses are around or under 35% humidity during the winter when the outside temp goes under freezing.

 

Oh...and great job with the research so far!!!

[insanebidder-migration]

FF,

 

Actually, I live in Florida. . So the humidity level year-round here seems to be "at the lowest" 53% inside. It appears to average 53-62 percent inside. Anyway, as for brittleness, the LOC recommends shooting for between 35-50. After researching articles from the LOC, NARA, looking at the Ansi standards for storage recommendations, and countless other articles on the subjects of paper conservation/storage, most places say that, for long periods at least, below 35% humidity level can actually be damaging to the paper, drying it out to the point where pages can eventually become brittle. Which is interesting, considering "too much" humidity can cause the paper to become yellow, overly acidic, and the pages "also" becoming brittle. Therefore, as with a lot of things in life, too much or too little of a good thing isn't always good.

Since most articles I have read state that, for paper storage, 35-50 percent is the range, I'm assuming that right smack dab in the middle would actually be more ideal. 42-43 % to be exact. Enough to where the pages won't dry out, yet not enough to where a possible mold spore outbreak can be apparent.

As for how I "originally" planned to store comics in the fridge (Although this is still testable in a regular frost-producing fridge it is a moot point in a frost-free fridge), Microchamber paper between the front/back covers, a microchamber backing board, in mylar, and then that mylar-encased comic vacuum sealed via what I have here, which is a "Deni-sealer", which also heats seals the ending product.

Anyway, my next test is to seal a comic in the above mentioned manner "but" to also seal in my Digital hygrometer within the package to see if the outside RH really reaches the inside comic, or if the RH remains somewhat on the side of the RH that was "where the Deni sealer" was when I originally sealed the comic.

I'll let you know what I find out.

 

Brent

 

[insanebidder-migration]

Here’s an interesting portion of an article from the following link:

 

http://www.nedcc.org/plam3/tleaf22.htm

 

CLIMATE CONTROL IS EXPENSIVE - WHAT IS GOOD ENOUGH?

Although the preservation community has been unable to agree on specific standards for climate control in paper-based collections, authorities do agree on several general conclusions that emanate from research:

· Temperatures above about 70°F and RH above about 55-60% encourage mold and insects.

· Additional damage occurs at climatic extremes: high RH increases acid formation; RH below 30% can embrittle paper, parchment, adhesives, photographic emulsions, and other materials.

· Within these limits, the lower the temperature and RH can be kept, the better---provided they do not fluctuate.6

As a first step towards limiting deterioration by good climate control, an institution should aim at maintaining stable conditions year round, no higher than 70°F and between 30-50% RH. These are the suggested values given in Environmental Guidelines for the Storage of Paper Records, a technical report issued by the National Information Standards Organization. This report is not a standard, but it offers useful guidelines for climate control. The report specifies that one target value within the range of 30-50% should be chosen for relative humidity, depending on what the institution's climate control system can maintain consistently. The report notes that temperature should not vary more than ± 2°F and RH should not vary more than ±3% in any 24-hour period. If fluctuations can be controlled, damage to collections will be significantly slower than it has been under the typical range of storage conditions in many areas of the United States and Canada.

 

[fantastic_four]

Actually, I live in Florida. . So the humidity level year-round here seems to be "at the lowest" 53% inside. It appears to average 53-62 percent inside. Anyway, as for brittleness, the LOC recommends shooting for between 35-50. After researching articles from the LOC, NARA, looking at the Ansi standards for storage recommendations, and countless other articles on the subjects of paper conservation/storage, most places say that, for long periods at least, below 35% humidity level can actually be damaging to the paper, drying it out to the point where pages can eventually become brittle.

 

I don't doubt that's their very general recommendation, but since one article at the LoC recommends 45% to 55% and another recommends 35%, I'm not really impressed with the accuracy of their recommendtions. My point was that here in Virginia where the humidity and temp are either average or above average, the humidity gets below 35% in the winters, so I would have to think that some of the pedigree collections like Church, White Mountain, etc, in colder parts of the country were submitted to even lower humidities. What's the RH in Canadian winters? I would think below 35%, but they're almost always white-paged.

[insanebidder-migration]

Okay, here’s the reports I’m getting….

 

1. Library of Congress’s preservation web page for paper:

 

http://www.loc.gov/preserv/care/paper.html

 

They want you to keep it below 72 degrees and they say to try to “aim” for 35% RH

 

 

2. The American Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works:

 

http://aic.stanford.edu/treasure/caringpaper.pdf

 

They recommend a temperature below 72 degrees and a RH of between 30-50%

 

3. Northeast Document Conservation Center:

 

http://www.nedcc.org/plam3/tleaf22.htm

 

They recommend a temp. of 70 or below and a RH of between 30-50%

 

4. National Archives

 

http://www.archives.gov/preservation/caring_for_your_family_archives.html#preserve.html

 

60-70 Farenheit and 40-50% RH. However, they also stated, “That which we find comfortable ourselves.” Therefore, this range was probably intended for areas where work was constantly being performed by the staff.

 

5. National Information Standards Organization

 

http://www.niso.org/standards/resources/Z39-79-2001.pdf

 

Although this standard is for “exhibition” and not storage, it is similar to the other recommendations…(Sections 4 and 5).

 

They recommend a 35-50% RH and a temperature “not to exceed” 72 degrees F.

 

 

Therefore, although many of the recommendations from the “Big time” players vary slightly, the majority of the recommendations seem to be somewhat similar. If I were to average the 5 temperatures, I’d say around 71.2 degrees is the “maximum” average they recommend, yet they all hint in some way to wanting a lower temperature, which of course makes sense according to the preservation index.

 

As for RH levels, the LOC (At least in that particular article) doesn’t give a maximum. However, all of the others do, which is 50%. If we were to take all of the ranges (And assume that the max for the LOC was 50%), establish a midpoint for each one, and then make an average, the average RH “midpoint” would be 42%. I know that’s not exactly scientific, but since some organizations vary by around 5% in some cases, that’s the best I can think of.

 

As for climates, where are you in Virginia? I can’t find a reading from Virginia with a winter humidity level that low. I did find the following for Richmond…..

 

http://www.cityrating.com/cityweather.asp?city=Richmond

 

Looks like that city averages 68% RH and the lowest is generally 46%. Of course, areas vary, as of course RH settings inside. As for the E. Church collection, although I can’t find a link of weather history for Boulder, CO, for Denver I found the following…..

 

http://www.cityrating.com/cityweather.asp?city=Denver

 

Looks as though the avg. RH for the year was 53.5% and the lowest was around 34%. Not lethally low for paper, but 1% lower than the recommend allowance.

 

Here’s some more cities in Colorado…..

 

http://www.cityrating.com/cityweather.asp?city=Colorado+Springs

 

Colorado Springs:

 

51.5% yearly average, lowest was around 36%

 

Grand Junction, CO

 

http://www.cityrating.com/cityweather.asp?city=Grand+Junction

 

48.5% RH yearly and a frightening 20% being the lowest

 

Pueblo, CO

 

http://www.cityrating.com/cityweather.asp?city=Pueblo

 

54% yearly avg. and the lowest being 32%

 

Now then, as for temperatures, all of these areas seem to have really low temperature averages, as do other collections I have researched. Yet, except for the mile high collections and the E. Church collection the avg. humidity levels were actually higher—in the 60-69% RH range.

 

So, it’s an interest predicament…..

 

Considering the fact that a variation in RH causes quicker aging according to all of the “Big time” research facilities, would the E. Church collection and the Mile High have been in even “better” conditions if the locations where the comics originated had a lower yearly average RH by about 8-9 percent? Then again, since most of the “better” conditioned issues were found in the “bottom” of the stacks, perhaps the RH in those compressed areas “did” have an 8-9 percent reduction in RH because not much humidity was able to reach them. Or, perhaps, are we stressing too much importance on humidity and not enough on temperature, since most of the pedigrees had a low average temp.? It’s all interesting, and I’d love it if these major organizations would do a LOT more testing.

 

PS—My next refrigeration test is underway……

 

I placed a comic in a magazine-sized Mylar with microchambered front/back covers and a microchamber backing board. On the other side of the backing board I placed my digital hygrometer. Then, I used my Deni-sealer to heat-seal enclose a Polyethylene bag around the Mylar-enclosed comic after I used the Deni-Sealer’s vacuum function to suck out the air. So far so good. It’s been 5 hours on the “top” shelf of the fridge, and the temp. inside the bag reads 45, and the RH inside the bag goes between 43-45%. Moisture on the outside of the bag, but from the look of it none inside the bag. Actually, although I can’t find the article now, polyethylene (Although it discolors after age) is supposed to be one of the most impenetrable substances, which means I probably won’t “get” any water vapor inside the bag. Also, according to a few statements by Reynold Jay, who has actually been “freezing” comics since 1976, he also recommended Polyethylene. Here’s a few excerpts from the man himself….

 

“Hi Brent,

This goes way beyond what I do here. If you do all this, you'll be in great shape. All the more expensive aspects of this could probably be skipped and the result would be much the same. The 40 degrees is the most imprtant part of all of this and anything to kep moisture and light from touching your comics is what you want.

 

With 40 degrees temp, you should be okay when you bring to room temp. Big problems is bringing books from zero to room temp. as condensation will take place.

Keep in touch on any of this. It's really not high tech and easy to do. I let Michingan freezing temps do the work here in an unheated warehouse.

 

I wrap in ordinary comic bags, some in mylar. Bear in mind that I began this in 1976. and regular bags work just fine. The bags age , however the comics look just like day one. No difference with mylar vs regular bags. Boards don't seem to age either... just regular boards. There will be no condensation in the refrig. Moving from cold to warm is the process to be very careful. Mylar won't seal. USe polyethyelene bags for heat sealing. It's always good to experiment as you will find what works and what doesn't.Experimentation led to discovery of polyethelyne bags beijng good for heat sealing. Keep sending reports as this is good info for me here. Thanks. RJ

 

PS--If condensation becomes a problem, you could experiment with different temps. Try 45 degrees.

 

Well, that’s all for now. But it was enough—phew!

 

PS#2--If anyone has some links to some "more" weather history sites that include RH levels, let me know! Thanks! I don't like going by just "one" report. I feel more comfortable if I can develop averages.

 

Brent

 

 

 

 

 

 

[insanebidder-migration]

Success!!!! Okay, so far so good on the vacuum sealing experiment. I need to list this step-by-step.

 

Here's what I did. Outside of the fridge, in a 75 degree environment and a 52% RH humidity environment I did the following....

 

1. Placed a sheet of microchamber paper between the front/back covers of the comic, and then placed a Microchamber backing board behind the comic.

 

2. Placed this comic/backing board in Mylar.

 

3. On the outside of the Mylar on the non-cover side I placed my digital hygrometer, and then I placed "everything" inside a polyethylene "Deni-Seal Freshlock bag.

 

4. I used my kitchen "Deni-sealer" to vacuum out the air from the bag and then heat sealed the open edge.

 

5. Placed the bagged comic "face down and hygrometer side up" on the top shelf (Not using a box in this current experiment--one thing at a time) and checked on it periodically for the last 24 hours.

 

Temperature was stable at around 44-45 degrees except when I "first" put it in there, and the RH stayed at 43-45 % RH the whole time with no variance. Even when I opened the fridge for brief periods of time.

 

Also, there's condensation on the bag, but none inside from what I can tell. Actually, since polyethylene is hard to penetrate and "then" you also have Mylar to get through I doubt anything would.

 

Now then, the temperature of the fridge "outside" the bag seems to stay the same as inside the bag, which is around 44 degrees. Here's the interesting part. "Outside the bag" in the fridge, when the fridge hasn't been opened a while and is opened for the first time, the RH is a low 28-30%. Yet, once opened that jumps to around 60%. However, the digital hygrometer within the sealed bagged comic stays the same--at around 43-45%. Success! Therefore, from what I gather, this is what is happening:

 

1. The temp. is, of course, lowered to the fridge level.

2. The humidity level the comic was enclosed in, although dropping from 52% RH which was the RH "outside" the fridge when it was first sealed down to 43%, doesn't seem to budge much from the 43% level. So, my first real test is a success! The RH is staying the same within the bag!

 

Here's my next plans....

 

2nd test? The same test, but using the bottom of the fridge.

 

3rd test? Within the vegetable drawer

 

4th test? Within a lidded comic box. This will, of course, be the ideal test, as it'll be the best way of keeping "newly opened" fridge humidity out (Even though it only effects the comic by like 1% at the most since it's sealed) and also it'll provide a way of "slow re-acclimation" by just removing the box and letting it adjust to room temp. slowly.

 

I'll let you know the results.

 

Anyway, although slight encapsulation does decrease the lifespan of paper, since A: Microchamber is being used, and B: A 45 degree temperature with a RH of 43% has a typical life-expectancy of 290 years, I think encapsulation wouldn't be "as much" of an issue here as it is when compared to non-refrigeration methods of storage.

 

Brent

 

[insanebidder-migration]

2nd test--also a success!

 

I did all the above "except" I placed the comic directly on the "bottom" shelf instead of the top. The temperature of the inside of the bag is lower by 1 degree, and the RH inside the sealed book has dropped to 43% instead of 43.5%. However, a 12-hour test indicates no major differences. Also, the fridge was left completely closed during that 12-hour test.

 

For my third test I'm skipping the vegetable drawer and going directly with placing the sealed/vacuumed comic directly in a lidded comic box (Comic box having no handles, so no major holes for entry of excess environmental changes) on the bottom shelf of the fridge. I'll let you know the results.

 

PS--I think I'm skipping any of the freezer tests. Too hard to defrost, and too harsh of an environment overall.

 

 

[Mr_Glass]

Sorry if someone mentioned this already (I got to lazy to read through the whole thread) but what about locking out air. As I understand it, it is just as much an element as heat (think about the white pages the Mile High books produced due to compression from being in huge stacks). I currently use Bill Coles CGC sleeves which are like giant zip-lock bags. I'm not sure how effective they are but I just thought I'd mention it.

[insanebidder-migration]

Yeah--In my experiments I am using a vacuum-sealer for foods, called a "Deni-sealer" to suck all of the air out of the bags. Here's what I am experimenting with and why.

 

1. In between the covers of the comic place a sheet of Microchamber paper--.007 enclosure Microchamber paper, to be exact, for it contains a lot of zeolites to absorb the acidic byproducts of aging paper.

 

2. For the backing board touching the back of the comic, I use a Microchamber backing board. Unfortunately, these things are WAY too expensive. I use that for extra absorption qualities.

 

3. On the "very" back, behind the Microchamber backing board I place a Super Golden age sized E. Gerber buffered 3% calcium carbonate acid-free board.

 

4. Then I placed the comic and boards inside of a Super Golden age sized 4 mil. Mylar envelope. The reason I used a Super Golden age size is because the smaller ones seem to be too tight of a fit and I don't want to risk physically damaging comics by sliding them in and out of a Mylar.

 

5. Next I use these Deni-Seal Freshlock bags, which are made out of Polyethylene by the way, to wrap and seal the Mylar'd comic book. Before I heat seal it with the Deni-sealer, however, I use the sealer's vacuum function to take the air out of the inside of the bag. Then I seal it and wala--ready for the next step. PS--Although Polyethylene will discolor with age, and some people have qualms about using it because of fear of byproducts soaking into the paper, since it is just basically covering the outside of the Mylar sleeve, which is really good protection, seepage of anything potentially lethal is probably irrelevant because of the Mylar barrier beneath the Polyethylene. Especially in such a cold environment as a fridge. As for Polyproplyne, haven't tried it, mainly for the fact that someone who has been actually "freezing" comics since 1976 said Polyethylene heat seals better. In addition, from what I have read Polyethylene, although gas-permeable, has a really low water-vapor transmission rate, which is definitely a plus in my experiments since we're trying to avoid ANY internal condensation within the bag itself.

 

6. The comic box. I use an Acid free magazine sized comic book, since I am using larger Mylar envelopes. Every groove that has a potential for leaking humidity, such as the outside corners of the box, etc. has been sealed with tape. Yes, tape is acidic and normally bad, but with all of the protection enabled it's irrelevant at this point and will be more beneficial than harmful. Also, as a side note and definitely overkill, I lined the inner top of the lid and inner bottom of the box with Microchamber absorption paper. Once the comic is inside the box, the lid is closed. The reason for the box is simple. Although the comic is sealed and the relative humidity barely changes by 2-3 percent within the bag if the fridge is open, considering all of the light the comic would encounter "every time" the fridge was open or the RH change "every time" the fridge was open, I thought it would be better to leave the sealed comics in a lidded and "free of openings" comic box. As an example of the humidity change within a fridge once the door is opened, the RH changes from about 30% on any shelf to as much as 70% within as little as 5 seconds. Therefore, although sealed, I thought it'd be best to place the sealed comic within a box. In addition, when a person decides to re-acclimate the "entire" collection, they can just remove the box and wait many hours, since the comic will revert to room temperature at a MUCH slower rate within a closed box than just taking it from one extreme to another. Slow re-acclimiation, in my opinion, is probably going to be really beneficial.

 

7. Refrigerator. I am using your basic Frost-free upright refrigerator, and have it set to the middle coldness setting, which is 3 out of 5 for this fridge.

 

8. Outside room temperature, just for those curious. 74 degrees and around 62 percent RH.

 

9. Digital Hygrometer/Thermometer--My digital Hygrometer was placed within the sealed comic on the back, and after I open the lidded box I read it within that one second. I have been getting constant readings of around 44.4 degrees and 43-45% RH levels. These levels are superb, and according to the preservation index calculator from the image permanence institute, paper with these readings can theoretically not show major deterioration for 273 years, and are EXTREMELY safe from mold growth. At 45 degrees a humidity level would have to be at 84% on a consistent basis before mold germination could take place. A far cry from 45%.

 

This is all that I have so far. Now the only thing left to be done is a "long-term" test.

 

Brent

 

 

 

[insanebidder-migration]

I've also got an idea for re-acclimation if someone wanted to, per say, just take out one or two comics to sell from their collection, instead of removing the whole box from the fridge. Although temperature change would still be a factor, perhaps having an empty box set aside "outside of the fridge", and within that box two containers of Damprid (Or more, if needed) to lower the RH inside that to a level consistent to that of the RH within the sealed comic bags within the comic box within the fridge. Then, you would take out the comic you want out from the box in the fridge, place it in the artifically lowered RH box outside of the fridge really quickly, and then leave it in there for a while before taking it out. Just an idea...

That way, in a box outside the fridge, the temperature of the comic would increase at a slower rate than just being put out in the open, yet an RH shift wouldn't be so extreme because the RH in the new box would have already been pre-adjusted.

Or you could just have an "empty" comic box next to your full one in the fridge for acclimation purposes if you wanted to remove a comic from your full box.

No matter what, because of space limitations, you would definitely have to have a "second" refrigerator, that's for sure!

 

Brent

 

[PovertyRow]

I really have to admire your perseverance! This will ultimately turn out to be a most informative thing!

 

PS - am planning similar based on your posts. Hope to begin first of the new year!

[insanebidder-migration]

Thanks! So far so good. Actually, a guy by the name of Reynold Jay has been doing "almost" the same thing, except for the fact that he's been freezing instead of refrigerating. Personally, I believe there's more of a risk by freezing, as freezing could cause frozen moisture within the pores of the paper itself. Once dethawed, this could lead to water condensation forming on the pages itself, causing "some" unstable inks to smear. I've been in conversation with him, and it appears as though, although rare, this has happened from time to time. Generally speaking, though, when it "does" happen, it's usually on the SAME exact page of a comic, which indicates an ink stability problem to begin with. However, in my estimation it's the dethawing process which helps the smearing process of that particular page. I don't think this would be the case with refrigeration, though. As the temperature would never get below freezing. It hasn't been a problem for me thus far at ALL! No moisture within the bag at ALL once opened! Anyway, he's been freezing comics for around 25 years, and uses "almost" the exact method I do--He places a comic in Mylar, then places a polyethylene wrap around the Mylar and vacuum seals/heat seals the result. Then he freezes them by placing them in a warehouse. I have a variation of this, as I use Microchamber between a few pages and also have a Microchamber backing board. Then, of course, the "big" difference is the fact that I use the fridge and have the comics in a sealed box. My temps have been at a stable 45 degrees and my RH levels inside my test comic/bag has remained at around 43%. So, I really think, IMHO, this is the way to go. Now then, in case dethawed moisture from freezing "isn't" the reason a few pages are smearing from time to time, he suggested that I place the Microchamber between EACH page just in case. Definitely a good idea, although it could be a rather pricey one.

Anyway, I'm in the process of moving so my test has to end for the current time. Once I move, I plan on eventually buying a second fridge for the sole purpose of storing comics. This test has proved its worth in my opinion.

PS--One note--When vacuum sealing, in order to get the RH within the bag to stay at 43-45% within the box in the fridge the RH "outside" the fridge has to be between 50-60%. Seems as though the fridge automatically makes the RH within the bagged comic to drop by 10%.

 

Brent

 

 

[insanebidder-migration]

PS--Here's a full-length discussion between myself and Mr. Jay. The earliest questions are at the bottom and the responses work themselves up, so you'll have to read the messages from the bottom up.

 

No need to acquire anything like the ASm 328.. You can see these while visiting comic stores and going through the back issue bins. I choose this one as it isn't that old and when you find the page of bleeding, it's a whopper and unmistakeable! Explanation sounds like it may be correct. Thanks for better explaining of this.

RJ

 

 

 

Thanks for your quick response! As for what I was trying to say, let me try and put it in other words. Okay, although we vacuum seal the polyethylene around the Mylar, there's still, of course, going to be some residual humidity within the bag. Actually, some humidity is good (35-50 percent that is), so that's alright. Now then, when the pages have some moisture in them, but not "too much", a stable low temperature should prevent that from doing any damage. However, once frozen, is it possible that the moisture within each cellulose pore of each page turns into ice crystals, then once dethawed those ice crystals turn into water, therefore over-moisturizing pages which have unstable ink, thus causing them to bleed? That's what I was trying to ask. The reason I am asking this is because "if" the freezing process is what is causing the bad reaction with the certain unstable inks, would refrigeration prevent this because the temperature is never brought down to freezing? That's what I'm trying to determine. I suppose I could always get myself a S-Man 328 and test that one out. PS--Just out of curiosity, the ones that you have frozen which have bled, do they cover all ages, just moderns, or what? What seems to be the most affected when this "does" happen--Golden, silver, bronze, or moderns?

Not sure on the whole graying margin process. I know that, generally speaking, oxidation takes place on the outside of margins first since they are first in contact with air before the rest of the pages. However, in a sealed environment, this shouldn't be happening. On the other hand, unless an oxygen absorber is in the comic book, perhaps oxidation is still taking place, but the lack of an escape route for the byproducts of oxidation turn the margins gray instead of yellow/brown. Not sure on that one, either. Actually, this is the first time I've heard of it. Let's just think of it as "frost."

 

Brent

 

 

 

eXCELLENT QUESTION and I've never asked myself why it happened. I'm certain de thawing not the cause though. Not all comics affected. Few actually. Some colors more than others. Most often black. Unstable ink was my thought on this. When one comic had it, all had it. and always same page. Find a copy of ASM 328 and you'll find one page with an extreme example of this. Hulk on cover. To me the ink was unstable, to a scientific mind, it had not curred, settled, did not dry quickly and may have been present on day it was printed too. Last thought is probably it come to thnk of it.

 

Not clear on your reasoning

 

Here's another question too. Look at the margins of inside pages of 20 year old comics and you'll most are covered with a grayish dirt that can be removed with an eraser. The margins do not have ink that can bleed from page to page. If the comics are sealed and stored properly, where does this phenomena come from? ... part of the aging process? Not much of an answer.

 

 

Thanks for the superb information! One more question, though. Do you think that the bleeding of pages was perhaps caused due to the freezing temperatures (Which froze the humidity within the book) followed by the dethawing process (Whether on purpose or due to rising temperatures), or "just because" of the miniscule amount of trapped humidity within the sealed polyethylene itself? If humidity in gaseous form stays in gaseous form and is not allowed to freeze (Just stays cold, like in a fridge), then would the risk of the humidity turning into pure water within the pages be lowered because it wasn't allowed to freeze, therefore reducing the risk of color bleed? Just curious what your take is on this. I mean, on one hand it "makes sense", but on the other hand, since I'm not a scientist, I can't say for certain.

 

Brent

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Reynold Jay

To: Baby Blues

Cc: Reynold Jay

Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 12:13 PM

Subject: Re: Attempting to refrigerate comics

 

 

I've been placing my experimental comics within Mylar and then vacuuming/sealing polyethylene around the Mylar itself.

 

YEs this is exactly what is done here. IT works. 25 years of this indicates this is the way to go if you can afford it.

 

Yes the very thick mylar is fine stored flat, however not neccessary. Pehaps an occassional heavy duty mylar would be appropriate. Even the thinest 1 mil will do the job as long as the surface is flat. Store comics one on top of another with any system of alternating up and down. If a comic is important to you place paper between each page. This will stop bleeding of inks from page to page. I have'nt done this and 25 years later, many of the colors have blead. With papers inserted, the paper would have absorbed the bleeding inks. I have no plans to do this, however I'd recommend it to all.

 

Please include the above note in your records as this is important to others who may review our discussion.

 

 

Here are basics that I found in the 1981 article. and plan to share with my customers.

 

Many questions have been arriving since we have been advertising that our comics have been frozen for the last 25 years. The original article that inspired this process has been found in the 1981 12th Overstreet guide authored by Ernest W. Gerber P.E. and Richard D. Smith PhD, P.E. There is a lot of scientific discussion about PH , acidity, humidity and alkaline buffers, etc. and is the reason for the following statements.

 

" Keep Cool. The rate at which paper deteriorates doubles each time the temperature increases 10 degrees F . For example , the rate of deterioration at 85 degrees is 8 times faster than the rate at 55 degrees F."

 

This meant that leaving comics in an unheated warehouse in a Michigan climate would be better than storing them inside at 70 degree temps. The average temp in our situation is 20 degrees F. It varies greatly like any climate, however our storage in summer temps is always 10-20 degrees colder than outside temps. IF summer temps begin to climb we often move items to air conditioned environment.

 

Most collectors store comics in their homes at 70 degrees F. all year round. Compare this to 20 degrees F. average and the difference is our comics will have aged 32 times slower.

 

A dramatic graph in the article shows that average storage conditions result in yellowing to begin in 15 years, brown in 35 years and brittle in 40 years. Storage in Mylar improves the process with yellowing in 55 years and brittle in 100 years. There was no study or information in the graph to indicate dramatic lowering of temps and the use of Mylar, however one could presume that this would greatly extend the life of paper. Without studies and assuming the "AVERAGE STORAGE CONDITIONS" were 70 degrees F. it would not be out of line to say that our collection of comics would have 32 times the life expectancy of normal, or yellow in 1,760 and brittle in 3,200 years.

 

Since we pull these comics and sell'm after 20-25 years, the optimum storage conditions end and average deterioration begins. Comics are simply going to last 20-25 years longer than nearly all other comics. In 100 years nearly all 70's comics will be brown brittle and nearly dust while our comics will stand out as survivors in the yellow stage. In the event that collectors continued our cold storage program , comics would continue to survive for many generations well up to the year 5203. If estimated temps were adjusted to frige temps , of 40 degrees F. not 20 degrees, comics would begin to disintegrate in 2828 surviving a mere 725 years beyond all others.

 

When you make a purchase, should you store these in the frige? R.J. thinks so if you really want your surviving great great grand children to reap the benefits. One can only ask, "What will the value of a handful of surviving collectibles be in the year 2525? "

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Baby Blues

To: Reynold Jay

Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 1:05 AM

Subject: Re: Attempting to refrigerate comics

 

 

 

Okay, thanks! PS--What type of vacuum sealer do you use? I'm just using a run-of-the-mill Deni-sealer/vacuum for experimentation purposes. Also, my experiments are really becoming successful. I've been maintaining a 45 degree temp. and a 45% RH level consistently within the vacuum-sealed bags in the fridge. So far so good! Also, you mentioned stacking them flat. Even if the Polyethylene vacuum-sealed comics are also within Mylar? I've been placing my experimental comics within Mylar and then vacuuming/sealing polyethylene around the Mylar itself. I would think that the straight, solid bottom of a 4 Mil. Mylar would prevent creasing. No?

 

Brent

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Reynold Jay

To: Baby Blues

Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 10:39 PM

Subject: Re: Attempting to refrigerate comics

 

 

No large experiments here, however a quick test of the two indicated the polyethlyne seemed to seal easily and we've simply used it successfully since we began the process. I have found the article in Overstreet #12 1981. I'll send key points later. RJ

----- Original Message -----

From: Baby Blues

To: Reynold Jay

Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 8:35 PM

Subject: Re: Attempting to refrigerate comics

 

 

I forgot to ask....why polyethylene and not polypropylene? Is one harder to seal than the other?

 

Brent

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Reynold Jay

To: Baby Blues

Cc: Reynold Jay

Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 1:45 PM

Subject: Re: Attempting to refrigerate comics

 

 

I wrap in ordinary comic bags, some in mylar. Bear in mind that I began this in 1976. and regular bags work just fine. The bags age , however the comics look just like day one. No difference with mylar vs regular bags. Boards don't seem to age either... just regular boards. There will be no condensation in the refrig. Moving from cold to warm is the process to be very careful. Mylar won't seal. USe polyethyelene bags for heat sealing. It's always good to experiment as you will find what works and what doesn't.Experimentation led to discovery of polyethelyne bags beijng good for heat sealing. Keep sending reports as this is good info for me here. Thanks. RJ

----- Original Message -----

From: Baby Blues

To: Reynold Jay

Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:39 AM

Subject: Re: Attempting to refrigerate comics

 

 

 

Well, I'm still in the testing phases to see what works/what doesn't, but I'll keep you posted. PS--When freezing your comics, what did you wrap them in? Also, were they in Mylar (Sealed or unsealed), in comic boxes, etc.? Or did you just use saran-wrap? I'm curious to know what you wrapped/sealed, etc. and how. Also, as for my current report, here's what I have as of this morning....

 

I had placed a regular Hygrometer/Thermometer unit in the box along with 2 containers of Damprid in addition to my new digital hygrometer/thermometer. This morning I had a 40 degree temperature on both units, but the humidity reading on the regular one was 40 percent, yet the digital one read 32 percent, which is 3 percent below the lowest level it really should be "if" my digital one is in fact more accurate. Everything I've read thus far said we should have between 35-50 percent humidity, which would mean 42-43 percent humidity would probably be more ideal. This means I was 10 percent lower than I should be. Therefore, I removed one Damprid container out of the box to see what happens. Not wanting to waste any Mylar for the moment since I screwed one up last night trying to heat seal it using a standard kitchen heat Deni-sealer (Not hot enough to seal Mylar apparently), I just put the "junk comic" within a sealed Polybag. As of this morning, although rather cold, no condensation on the outside of the Polybag! Anyway, also note that my refrigerator setting is also on its coldest setting right now. If I were to raise the temperature a little, the humidity would probably go up to a more respectable 40-43 percent level. If removing one Damprid container doesn't do the trick I'll try that next and see what happens.....

 

PS--Also note that the comic box is in the lower left of the fridge. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that the closer a box would be stacked to the top (Unfortunately, can't test this particular theory out) and the closer it is to the "vents" that the higher the humidity would be with the boxes closer to the top.

 

Brent

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Reynold Jay

To: Baby Blues

Cc: Reynold Jay

Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 8:10 PM

Subject: Re: Attempting to refrigerate comics

 

 

Hi Brent,

This goes way beyond what I do here. If you do all this, you'll be in great shape. All the more expensive aspects of this could probably be skipped and the result would be much the same. The 40 degrees is the most imprtant part of all of this and anything to kep moisture and light from touching your comics is what you want. Also sit everything FLAT, not upright. The chloride sounds great, although the frige unit will keep unwanted mositure away from your chamber. The chloride is cheap and is really a good idea.

 

With 40 degrees temp, you should be okay when you bring to room temp. Big problems is bringing books from zero to room temp. as condensation will take place.

Keep in touch on any of this. It's really not high tech and easy to do. I let Michingan freezing temps do the work here in an unheated warehouse.

 

RJ

 

 

 

Mr. Jay,

 

Recently I obtained some information on a web board pertaining to you freezing comics. Although not interested in freezing, per say, because of the no doubt difficult defrosting procedures, I have been discussing refrigeration techniques with my fellow board members. Here's my plan. I was wondering if you could give me any insight on why this may or may not work. First, the inside of the refrigeration unit would be set at 40 degrees. Well above freezing. Second, the comics would be placed within an archivally taped (On corners, any gaps, etc. that might be present) acid free comic book box. On the outside of the box, to prevent moisture damage to the box itself, would be Mylar all the way around (Including the lid), which has a very low water vapor transmission rate. On the inside bottom of the box and top of the box would be a sheet of secured Microchamber absorption paper to absorb byproduct gasses from any aging process. Within the box itself each comic would be placed in Mylar, yet not sealed to allow for byproduct gasses to escape. Within the front/back covers would be a piece of Microchamber absorption paper, in addition to a buffered backing board. Last, but not least, would be either one or two 12 oz. containers of Calcium Chloride "Damprid" brand, which is a really good moisture absorber--it needs to be replaced every now and then, but it's really cheap.

Not having the financial means (Or storage space in "my" fridge to test out my theory, I am curious if you could tell me what you think......

 

Brent