JL "Punch" page thread-- cont'

[Nexus]

Not sure why the previous thread is gone (unless I'm missing it somehow)...but I was writing my response when it disappeared. Anyhow...

 

Regarding this page being offered privately, publicly, and then put on Ebay:

 

http://qurls.com?i=41720

 

I just want it to be clear: In no way was I bashing this page. It's a great page, and one all of us 80's comics fans remember well. My point was that I didn't necessarily agree with the valuation by the seller. Which isn't the same thing as saying it's not "worth" whatever he was asking. All it takes is for him to find that one person who agrees with him. It's "worth" whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

 

Also...I would not have even shared my opinion if not for the fact that the seller made this a topic for public discussion! No one talked about it when the page was being offered privately. But when the seller himself hypes it on a message board...well, it's a message board! And, if the thread is archived somewhere, please note that I was even trying to help him out by pointing out the fact that the auction was a true "no reserve" auction. That it turned out not to be is another matter entirely.

 

Which brings us to all the other comments in the thread. Like it or not, this sort of thing can be pretty typical in the hobby. For many of you, all this has made the seller untrustworthy. For the record, as the seller himself alluded to, I do know him well and have done business with him in the past. It was a smooth transaction. He's bought and resold a lot of high-end art, and as far as I know, there's never been a problem. If you meet his price, you get the art. So any perceived shenanigans aside, I consider the seller to be a very smart dealer.

 

My advice to OA collectors is to do your homework. Just because art is being offered privately, doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad deal. Just because it's on Ebay, doesn't necessarily make it a good deal, either. Buy what you can afford, because good deal or not, at the end of the day as a friend of mine likes to say, it's all just ink on paper.

_________________________

[Claudio]

It was listed on ebay with no reserve so I believe it should have been sold. If he had just put in a reserve to begin with, he would not have a problem. Frankly, I have known items to end early because someone bought it "off ebay" but I never noticed an auction (especially with this kind of publicity) to be terminated because the seller got cold feet. He mentioned that he was only willing to sell it as his price. That's great. Then he shouldn't have put it up with no reserve! Like I said, that is a violation of ebay policy. I have only been in this hobby for a little over a year so maybe I am naïve but this kind of stuff should not be going on.

[Claudio]

And sorry if I am ranting too much (I made a several comments on the disappeared thread as well). I was just looking forward to bidding on it. I would have made a decent bid on it because I really liked it. However, now I have no desire to own that page and that makes it a little frustrating. Oh well. Life goes on, I suppose.

[Khazano]

Was the piece over priced? Hell main' yes.

 

Should the seller have put it on EBay with no reserve, tell the whole world it was on Ebay with no reserve, then pull the auction? No, not the most tactful thing to do after posting on a popular comic art message board that you're letting it ride.

 

Do people seem to be getting overly bent out of shape about the whole matter. Oh um, yeah. This happens ALL THE TIME. Does it make it right? No. But getting bent out of shape about it doesn't help anything either. (if getting mad about things like this did help matters, well lets just say i'd have a lot more art collected over the past 8 years...)

 

Do I think what the seller displayed here today proves him to be untrust worthy? No. Come on now. If in the next ten years in the hobby you dont bend an ebay rule at least once I'll send you some free art.

 

It's not like the piece was traded hands privatly at a price lower than any of you were willing to go, and the auction was ended early. Then I could see myself being very frustrated. But the seller knew he wanted stuiped money for the page, and at the end of the day, only stuiped money would take it home. So other than it being a great big tease, it's not like anybody actually lost out. It's still in the same sellers hands, where unless he drops the price considerably, it'll stay for a good long while.

 

 

Just my two cents. ANyone got any premium Ultimate Spider-Man art they wanna sell?

 

[Claudio]

If in the next ten years in the hobby you dont bend an ebay rule at least once I'll send you some free art.

 

Send me some of you cool doomsday art. Recently, I got a hosed on some pieces that people said they'd bid on (and then didn't bid). They were all no reserve 1 cent auctions and I didn't cancel bids and end auctions early. If I didn't start bending rules then, u can bet I won't be bending them ever!

 

But u r right. This isn't worth getting bent out of shape over. There are tons of other art to find!

[jbud73]

Felix,

 

That is interesting that they pulled the thread in the marketplace traditionally doing stuff like that just makes people want to post more on the topic, censorship seems to inspire rather than quell that sort of thing.

 

Here is my take and what I took issue with on the JLA #5 page offering. The initial posting in which the seller solicited inquiries, that to say a public announcement that the page was for sale, though not stipulating a sale price. This is a far more common tactic in the OA world I've noticed. However the language was of the sort that "this was a grail page and its more important for the seller to find a good home for it," playing up the nostalgic angle, which could in fact be sincere.

 

As you mentioned the initial solicitation if you bothered to inquire (and I did) was 6K, a subsequent solicitation noted that the page could be obtained for 4.5K. At this point with no takers I believe the owner has two options; A) they can continue to solicit publicly through other venues (Heritage, EBAY, Comiclink, Allstar, CAF etc) or they can come to the realization that the intrinsic value to them is more than the monetary value of the marketplace and keep the page.

 

HOWEVER.....

 

Once the page is offered for sale in a public venue, and especially in the fashion in which it was offered (no reserve) in my opinion the seller has formally made the decision to sell for what the market will stipulate. In fact I would consider the page to be in escrow at that point. Pulling the auction and publicly admitting that the reason for the pull were due to lack of realized price 1-day from hammer, is again in my opinion akin to a buyer being the hammer winner and then refusing to pay for the piece.

 

To illustrate a situation to the contrary, CGC's former flag bearer Steve Borock put a Subby page up on EBAY earlier this year that hammered for about 20% of initial ask and on the lower end of what similar pieces had fetched. As he posted his daughter who is around 6 years old (how old is she now Steve?) asked him why he let the piece sell even though he knew it was worth more. Steve's response was that it was a matter of principle, he had made the decision to sell in the format and venue of his choosing and would stand by that decision. To me that is a sign of integrity and my already high respect for Steve was further strengthened.

 

 

[Claudio]

Good post jbud.

[Khazano]

If in the next ten years in the hobby you dont bend an ebay rule at least once I'll send you some free art.

 

Send me some of you cool doomsday art. Recently, I got a hosed on some pieces that people said they'd bid on (and then didn't bid). They were all no reserve 1 cent auctions and I didn't cancel bids and end auctions early. If I didn't start bending rules then, u can bet I won't be bending them ever!

 

 

 

THe thing is, did you stand to loose thousands of dollars in any of the mentioned auctions? Probably not...Youre still young in the hobby, wait a couple more years and a couple more bad ebay auctions, then ask yourself the same question. (This is why I said in the next ten years...) What if you're infinity gauntlet cover was sitting at 1K with 24 hours left? Its easy to say you'll do the right thing at this present moment, but when thousands of dollars are on the line, it might not be so easy to say "never"...

 

And for the record I have yet to pull an auction, but straight up, if its a bad day on Ebay, and Im looking at taking a 2K loss, you better believe I'll pull the auction before it ends. (well unless its a 2k loss on like a 50K piece, then it's relative...) Cause once the hammer falls, there is NO excuse that's acceptable.

 

Just my opinion. I applaud you for sticking to your guns, and hope you maintain that level of dedication.

[Khazano]

If in the next ten years in the hobby you dont bend an ebay rule at least once I'll send you some free art.

 

Send me some of you cool doomsday art.

 

 

doomsday art is not part of the offer !

[Nexus]

If in the next ten years in the hobby you dont bend an ebay rule at least once I'll send you some free art.

 

Send me some of you cool doomsday art. Recently, I got a hosed on some pieces that people said they'd bid on (and then didn't bid). They were all no reserve 1 cent auctions and I didn't cancel bids and end auctions early. If I didn't start bending rules then, u can bet I won't be bending them ever!

 

 

 

THe thing is, did you stand to loose thousands of dollars in any of the mentioned auctions? Probably not...Youre still young in the hobby, wait a couple more years and a couple more bad ebay auctions, then ask yourself the same question. (This is why I said in the next ten years...) What if you're infinity gauntlet cover was sitting at 1K with 24 hours left? Its easy to say you'll do the right thing at this present moment, but when thousands of dollars are on the line, it might not be so easy to say "never"...

 

And for the record I have yet to pull an auction, but straight up, if its a bad day on Ebay, and Im looking at taking a 2K loss, you better believe I'll pull the auction before it ends. (well unless its a 2k loss on like a 50K piece, then it's relative...) Cause once the hammer falls, there is NO excuse that's acceptable.

 

Just my opinion. I applaud you for sticking to your guns, and hope you maintain that level of dedication.

 

The point that's been made over and over again (and which you've apparently missed) is that if you don't want to risk losing $$$, then put a RESERVE ON THE AUCTION.

 

I had written in my original post in the pulled thread "No guts, no glory". Putting a true "no reserve" auction up means putting it up at a nominal minimum bid and letting it ride to the end. Guess what? In most cases, all the action happens in the last 10 seconds. Where the auction is at 24 hours before it's supposed to end means nothing. You can't have it both ways...at least not without risking your credibility and reputation.

 

And just for the record...all my art auctions in the last year have been true "no reserve" auctions. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose...but all auctions run their course to the end.

[Khazano]

 

The point that's been made over and over again (and which you've apparently missed) is that if you don't want to risk losing $$$, then put a RESERVE ON THE AUCTION.

 

 

 

No, actually I read that loud and clear... I am no longer talking about the issue at hand, which Ive already said wasnt the most tactful thing to do (which you apparently missed), and speaking more directly towards Claudios stance that nothing on Gods green earth will ever make him bend an Ebay rule... (perhaps i should have taken the discussion with him in private as not to confuse the issue at hand.)

 

I personally have never pulled an auction, but on the flip side, I can count on one hand the number of times ive done a 1cent NR auction. Literally, one hand. Because I do agree with you.

 

But I'm not nieve enough to think that faced with the hypthetical moral dilema of loosing a couple grand versus pulling my ebay auction early, that I'll stick to my moral high ground. Cause I dont think I would. I dont think its fair for anyone to say they would until they've actually been in that situation.

 

I appreciate that you are in the big waters playin with the big fish Felix. But have any of these auctions in the last year, put you in the red 2K or more? If they have, then dude, you are a more honorable man than I think I would be, faced with that situation. (or you were just gambling on the last minute bidders and it didnt pan out, I dunno your true intentions)

 

No, for me, the only truly really unbreakable Ebay rule is, (aside from no shilling) once the hammer falls, you sell at that price. No matter what!!

 

 

 

 

[Monster's Coll]

The thread and my post was gone and now it's Back!

 

Let me say that for collectors like myself, the JL series is one of the high points of the 80's. The run certainly does not have the historic significance of say DK or WM, that's silly, but it was a very memorable series and this page was The High Point. As far as interior art from the series goes, I truly believe this is the most valuable piece.

 

When I saw it listed on ebay, I had made a decision to set my snipe and hopefully be able to buy it back. When I saw that the auction was pulled conveniently before the time to end a listing expired, it was as I figured, like most 'offerings' now-a-days, just a game being played.

 

Not only was I disappointed in seeing a piece that I sold mainly because I was told that it was the person's holiest of grails, but also because when I made the deal to sell, I followed through, which I still regret.

 

There is no accountability in this hobby. It seems as though most want to blame someone else for their own actions. Take it from me, someone who has dealt with more BS (within this hobby) than most could possibly imagine; no matter what the circumstance was, I was forced to bear the burden of responsibility. Which I now understand was in fact mine to bear -every single time-. Why? Because I decided to interact with someone in the first place thinking that standard business practices apply - among other silly notions. They Absolutely Do Not - when it comes to trading in comics or comic art. Most people do whatever they want, whenever they want with a complete disregard for how Their actions affect others. Anyone that thinks otherwise hasn't been around long enough to be schooled in reality.

 

As long as people are allowed to 'get away' with playing games, they will continue to do it.

 

[Claudio]

If in the next ten years in the hobby you dont bend an ebay rule at least once I'll send you some free art.

 

Send me some of you cool doomsday art.

 

 

doomsday art is not part of the offer !

 

Damn.

 

[Claudio]

 

The point that's been made over and over again (and which you've apparently missed) is that if you don't want to risk losing $$$, then put a RESERVE ON THE AUCTION.

 

 

speaking more directly towards Claudios stance that nothing on Gods green earth will ever make him bend an Ebay rule... (perhaps i should have taken the discussion with him in private as not to confuse the issue at hand.)

 

 

 

Penguins would make me end an auction early. I love penguins. They are so cute.

[buyatari]

Did I get some hope when I saw an ebay no reserve auction? Yes.

 

I don't think it is as important as the cover to #1 or the alternate to #3 but whatever. If he posted it for a price within my budget I'd still buy it.

 

Yeah it sucks he pulled it but it could have been worse. He could have shilled it or refused to sell after the auction ended for less than he hoped. Cold feet before the auction ends and after it ends are 2 different things. Disapointing, but not the end of the world.

[Nexus]

No, actually I read that loud and clear... I am no longer talking about the issue at hand, which Ive already said wasnt the most tactful thing to do (which you apparently missed), and speaking more directly towards Claudios stance that nothing on Gods green earth will ever make him bend an Ebay rule... (perhaps i should have taken the discussion with him in private as not to confuse the issue at hand.)

 

I personally have never pulled an auction, but on the flip side, I can count on one hand the number of times ive done a 1cent NR auction. Literally, one hand. Because I do agree with you.

 

But I'm not nieve enough to think that faced with the hypthetical moral dilema of loosing a couple grand versus pulling my ebay auction early, that I'll stick to my moral high ground. Cause I dont think I would. I dont think its fair for anyone to say they would until they've actually been in that situation.

 

I appreciate that you are in the big waters playin with the big fish Felix. But have any of these auctions in the last year, put you in the red 2K or more? If they have, then dude, you are a more honorable man than I think I would be, faced with that situation. (or you were just gambling on the last minute bidders and it didnt pan out, I dunno your true intentions)

 

No, for me, the only truly really unbreakable Ebay rule is, (aside from no shilling) once the hammer falls, you sell at that price. No matter what!!

 

I agree with you, one can never say never. Regarding my auctions...yes, I've eaten some big losses before. I had a piece I paid $5K for sell for $1500. I had a $4K piece sell for $2500. It happens. What also happens is the reverse...I've seen big gains, as well. It all evens out in the end.

 

So, yes, there are obviously risks involved with "no reserve" auctions. But I also believe that if I had reserves, then I wouldn't have gotten some of the crazy results, either. Reserves can dissuade many bidders from participating and I'd like to get as many people involved as possible.

 

Take this JL page...it was already getting a lot of action when it got pulled. For all my doubts about its value, maybe the seller was right and I was wrong! It looked like it was going to finish very strong. Now we'll never know and the seller might have just screwed himself.

 

My (and look out for my auctions in the next couple of weeks! )

[Artemaria]

To illustrate a situation to the contrary, CGC's former flag bearer Steve Borock put a Subby page up on EBAY earlier this year that hammered for about 20% of initial ask and on the lower end of what similar pieces had fetched. As he posted his daughter who is around 6 years old (how old is she now Steve?) asked him why he let the piece sell even though he knew it was worth more. Steve's response was that it was a matter of principle, he had made the decision to sell in the format and venue of his choosing and would stand by that decision. To me that is a sign of integrity and my already high respect for Steve was further strengthened.

 

My respect for Steve is increased, and I don't even know him.

 

Decent, honest people who revere their integrity are an asset to any hobby.

 

- A

[Nexus]

The thread and my post was gone and now it's Back!

 

Let me say that for collectors like myself, the JL series is one of the high points of the 80's. The run certainly does not have the historic significance of say DK or WM, that's silly, but it was a very memorable series and this page was The High Point. As far as interior art from the series goes, I truly believe this is the most valuable piece.

 

When I saw it listed on ebay, I had made a decision to set my snipe and hopefully be able to buy it back. When I saw that the auction was pulled conveniently before the time to end a listing expired, it was as I figured, like most 'offerings' now-a-days, just a game being played.

 

Not only was I disappointed in seeing a piece that I sold mainly because I was told that it was the person's holiest of grails, but also because when I made the deal to sell, I followed through, which I still regret.

 

There is no accountability in this hobby. It seems as though most want to blame someone else for their own actions. Take it from me, someone who has dealt with more BS (within this hobby) than most could possibly imagine; no matter what the circumstance was, I was forced to bear the burden of responsibility. Which I now understand was in fact mine to bear -every single time-. Why? Because I decided to interact with someone in the first place thinking that standard business practices apply - among other silly notions. They Absolutely Do Not - when it comes to trading in comics or comic art. Most people do whatever they want, whenever they want with a complete disregard for how Their actions affect others. Anyone that thinks otherwise hasn't been around long enough to be schooled in reality.

 

As long as people are allowed to 'get away' with playing games, they will continue to do it.

 

 

You mentioned in your other post that you were no longer participating in the hobby. While I should be glad you'll no longer be competition, I am sorry to see you go! You've got one of the best collections in this hobby and I've missed seeing it online.

 

Hope you change your mind.

 

As to the rest of your post...strong words. I've been in this hobby for just a short while compared to you, but I've seen what you're talking about. And it's not just about ending auctions early, but how things get sold and how values are created. Something for all collectors in this hobby to heed.

 

 

[jbud73]

The thread and my post was gone and now it's Back!

 

Not only was I disappointed in seeing a piece that I sold mainly because I was told that it was the person's holiest of grails, but also because when I made the deal to sell, I followed through, which I still regret.

 

That is even more telling, I would think that if the nostalgic strings were employed to make you part with the piece that reciprocation would be to give you first shot at buying it back. And the cynic in me wonders what the mark up was between your offering and the resale, but that may be a discussion for non-public discourse.

[Mephisto]

The thread and my post was gone and now it's Back!

 

Let me say that for collectors like myself, the JL series is one of the high points of the 80's. The run certainly does not have the historic significance of say DK or WM, that's silly, but it was a very memorable series and this page was The High Point. As far as interior art from the series goes, I truly believe this is the most valuable piece.

 

When I saw it listed on ebay, I had made a decision to set my snipe and hopefully be able to buy it back. When I saw that the auction was pulled conveniently before the time to end a listing expired, it was as I figured, like most 'offerings' now-a-days, just a game being played.

 

Not only was I disappointed in seeing a piece that I sold mainly because I was told that it was the person's holiest of grails, but also because when I made the deal to sell, I followed through, which I still regret.

 

There is no accountability in this hobby. It seems as though most want to blame someone else for their own actions. Take it from me, someone who has dealt with more BS (within this hobby) than most could possibly imagine; no matter what the circumstance was, I was forced to bear the burden of responsibility. Which I now understand was in fact mine to bear -every single time-. Why? Because I decided to interact with someone in the first place thinking that standard business practices apply - among other silly notions. They Absolutely Do Not - when it comes to trading in comics or comic art. Most people do whatever they want, whenever they want with a complete disregard for how Their actions affect others. Anyone that thinks otherwise hasn't been around long enough to be schooled in reality.

 

As long as people are allowed to 'get away' with playing games, they will continue to do it.

 

 

You mentioned in your other post that you were no longer participating in the hobby. While I should be glad you'll no longer be competition, I am sorry to see you go! You've got one of the best collections in this hobby and I've missed seeing it online.

 

Hope you change your mind.

 

As to the rest of your post...strong words. I've been in this hobby for just a short while compared to you, but I've seen what you're talking about. And it's not just about ending auctions early, but how things get sold and how values are created. Something for all collectors in this hobby to heed.

 

 

I thought he just meant he wasn't participating as actively, especially in the selling and dealing end. He was planning on biding in this auction. But if you have retired Ken, please put me down for a 10 year payment plan (ok maybe only a couple of years payment plan) for your Killing Joke page(the one where Joker is explaining to Gordon that it's crazy not go insane due to just living life, it's the single best Joker page in explaining his thoughts and motives), and your Batman 251 page where Joker kicks Bats into the shark tank. Along with FLU I miss seeing these pages on your site. (Although I did save the KJ one to my hard drive a few years back.)