I received a PM from Tracey Heft today.....

[bhhooks22]

I will have you know that I am never arrogant. I'm just full of sh*t.

 

Me too ...............

[gaz973]

I will have you know that I am never arrogant. I'm just full of sh*t.

 

Me too ...............

 

Maybe the forum should be renamed the CGC bullsh*tting boards?

[FFB]

Gary, FFB has done a pretty good job of educating himself on the subject so he's probably a little trigger happy whenever the subject comes up because a lot of people exaggerate without knowing what they are talking about.

 

I was simply trying to prevent this from turning into another pressing thread but maybe should have kept my mouth shut instead.

 

 

R.

 

 

 

Roy, sorry if that was a bit of a rant but I was truly iritated by FFB's post.

 

I can see why it's a good idea to stop every thread becoming about pressing but it was an honest question that I wanted an experts opinion on. It's probably a moot point anyway as there are probably not going to be any answers forthcoming from Tracey Heft. I would PM the question to him but I wouldn't want to hassle him.

 

You had every right to be. I was way harsher in my post to you than I should have been. Roy is right. I still get a little touchy around this subject because I've been over it so many times with people who aren't interested in information as much as they're interested in convincing other people that "PRESSING WILL SMASH YOUR BOOKS."

 

So I am sorry, Gaz.

[Mutie Fan]

Does anyone know of a good resource book that someone like me (not that great at resto detection) can pick up that will at least give me some sound fundamentals?

Have any of you more skilled board members ever thought of trying to do an on-line seminar here on the boards with detailed photos and a strict guideline of comments etc. (So the thread does not turn into another long pressing thread)?

I found the “how to press a comic” thread in the resto section to be very informative (although some of the arguing back and forth got bit old after a while). How about one of you more skilled members pick one topic of resto (like color touch) and post several picks as examples of what you use to spot it in different situations.

I don’t think that this sort of information is some kind of a trade secret or anything it is just a bit harder to pick up on your own.

 

[gaz973]

Gary, FFB has done a pretty good job of educating himself on the subject so he's probably a little trigger happy whenever the subject comes up because a lot of people exaggerate without knowing what they are talking about.

 

I was simply trying to prevent this from turning into another pressing thread but maybe should have kept my mouth shut instead.

 

 

R.

 

 

 

Roy, sorry if that was a bit of a rant but I was truly iritated by FFB's post.

 

I can see why it's a good idea to stop every thread becoming about pressing but it was an honest question that I wanted an experts opinion on. It's probably a moot point anyway as there are probably not going to be any answers forthcoming from Tracey Heft. I would PM the question to him but I wouldn't want to hassle him.

 

You had every right to be. I was way harsher in my post to you than I should have been. Roy is right. I still get a little touchy around this subject because I've been over it so many times with people who aren't interested in information as much as they're interested in convincing other people that "PRESSING WILL SMASH YOUR BOOKS."

 

So I am sorry, Gaz.

 

Apology accepted mate (thumbs u , I probably got a bit more irate than I should have. I'm not usually the sensitive type.

I'm always interested in information and any opinions that aren't too biased. Anyway, no more mentioning the P word in this thread. After the extended debate recently, it's no wonder that people have started gouging out their eyeballs at the mention of the word.

[Green]

Ladies and Gentlemen, lets end this consversation quickly...your comics are pressed and heated to almost 200 F when the are printed brand new before they are put on the newstands.

 

As an aside, I have talked to Trace about restoring one of my GA books and he is a very knowledgeable person. From what I understand he is Museum trained in the conservation of paper.

 

It's be nice if he chimes in but if he doesn't I'd totally understand why.

 

R.

 

 

It's known that comics are best preserved by being stored in cool conditions so surely it follows that that the application of heat and moisture to a book in the pressing process could potentially have a long term detrimental effect. I'm just curious to hear the opinion of a paper expert on it, as pressing has become too "political" to trust for an unbiased view on the bards.

 

No, that does not follow. Pressing does not always involve the use of heat. When it does, the amount of heat used in pressing is mild and the book is not exposed to it for very long. It isn't like a ticking time bomb where you press a book with heat, the book looks fine when you're done, and then you store it properly for 20 years and one day you pull out the book and it's a brittle mass of brown paper.

 

Instead of speculating about this parade of horribles that you think will happen because of pressing, why not learn about it first and then offer an opinion based on actual knowledge? Ignorant fear mongering adds no value to the discussion.

 

Now wait a second. I posted on the first page hoping to ask an expert about the subject as you've suggested. After being dismissed out of hand by Roy, I had to explain my way of thinking to defend my question. How the hell does that translate into "ignorant fear mongering"? How the hell do I learn about the subject when I am apparently not allowed to ask a question about it?

Why do you even feel the need to grossly exaggerate what I said. "ticking time bombs"?, "brittle mass of brown paper"?, where did you come up with this bollocks?

You are absolutely right there is a lack of unbiased info.

[Green]

Ladies and Gentlemen, lets end this consversation quickly...your comics are pressed and heated to almost 200 F when the are printed brand new before they are put on the newstands.

 

As an aside, I have talked to Trace about restoring one of my GA books and he is a very knowledgeable person. From what I understand he is Museum trained in the conservation of paper.

 

It's be nice if he chimes in but if he doesn't I'd totally understand why.

 

R.

 

 

It's known that comics are best preserved by being stored in cool conditions so surely it follows that that the application of heat and moisture to a book in the pressing process could potentially have a long term detrimental effect. I'm just curious to hear the opinion of a paper expert on it, as pressing has become too "political" to trust for an unbiased view on the bards.

 

No, that does not follow. Pressing does not always involve the use of heat. When it does, the amount of heat used in pressing is mild and the book is not exposed to it for very long. It isn't like a ticking time bomb where you press a book with heat, the book looks fine when you're done, and then you store it properly for 20 years and one day you pull out the book and it's a brittle mass of brown paper.

 

Instead of speculating about this parade of horribles that you think will happen because of pressing, why not learn about it first and then offer an opinion based on actual knowledge? Ignorant fear mongering adds no value to the discussion.

 

IIRC, didn't Mark Wilson(the non loopy Wilson brother) send out examples of pressed books to an independent labratory to be tested for tensil strength, acidic levels and thickness and there was no evidence to suggest the paper was less stable, brittle or smushed when compared to the non pressed counterpart.

 

Not to say it is finite proof one way or the other and as Scott mentioned I too would welcome anyone to conduct similar experiemts to add to Wilsons findings.

 

Mainly, testing a 1/3 of typical SA comic, another 1/3 that was properly pressed and the last portion made into an overcooked pancake.

any idea where i can find more info on this, ive come up with nuthin from google

[VintageComics]

I will have you know that I am never arrogant. I'm just full of sh*t.

 

Well, don't ever let me say you haven't met my expectations.

 

(thumbs u

[divad]

It isn't like a ticking time bomb where you press a book with heat, the book looks fine when you're done, and then you store it properly for 20 years and one day you pull out the book and it's a brittle mass of brown paper.

 

tick-tick-tick-tick . . .

[FFB]

Does anyone know of a good resource book that someone like me (not that great at resto detection) can pick up that will at least give me some sound fundamentals?

Have any of you more skilled board members ever thought of trying to do an on-line seminar here on the boards with detailed photos and a strict guideline of comments etc. (So the thread does not turn into another long pressing thread)?

I found the “how to press a comic” thread in the resto section to be very informative (although some of the arguing back and forth got bit old after a while). How about one of you more skilled members pick one topic of resto (like color touch) and post several picks as examples of what you use to spot it in different situations.

I don’t think that this sort of information is some kind of a trade secret or anything it is just a bit harder to pick up on your own.

 

The "How to Detect Restoration" thread in the grading and restoration forum is probably your best bet. There are no books on how to detect comic book restoration.

 

Unless you're buying expensive comics (like more than $1,000 each), you usually won't run into professional restoration. Most of the restoration you need to look out for is the following:

 

1) amateur color touch

2) trimming

3) pressing

4) tear seals

5) staple replacement

 

1) Amateur color touch is usually very easy to spot. The best way to find it is to take a close look at your book under good lighting, with focus on the spine, corners, and edges. The most common amateur color touch by FAR (in my experience at least) is black marker pen. Fortunately, it's also usually the easiest to spot. Look at the inside cover and see if there is any "bleed through" where the ink has bled through the cover. Most marker pen ink will bleed through the cover because the solvent in the ink cuts through the sizing on the paper before the solvent volatilizes, and carries the ink pigment all the way through the paper.

 

Sometimes the amateur color touch won't show any bleed through, but it will still be visible from the outside of the cover because you'll see a stress line or crease that should break color but doesn't. Oftentimes you'll be able to look closely at it and see the subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) difference between the original inks and the amateur color touch. Using a magnifying glass or a ground glass loupe can help, but once you know what you're looking for, you'll be able to see color touch with the naked eye as long as you have good eyesight.

 

2) Trimming can be very easy or very hard to detect, depending on how skilled the trimmer is, what the book looks like, and how much they are trying to trim off. What makes trimming hardest to detect is that every comic book is "trimmed" on all three edges when it is made. The trick is to spot the differences between the factory trim and the "aftermarket" trim.

 

Sometimes you can spot trimming by the lack of paper in an area where you would expect it to be. On early silver age Marvels, there is usually an overhang of the cover at the top of the book. This tends to get bent, and people who want to get rid of the bends will sometimes just trim off that edge. Sometimes people will really get carried away and will trim the leading edge of the book, and the bottom edge too. Sometimes they'll only cut a tiny bit off the top edge and will still leave some overhang. It's all variable.

 

Sometimes a trimmed edge will look different under magnification than a "factory" edge. One of the differences you might see will be apparent in the ink layer, not on the actual paper.

 

When a comic book is printed, the inks have drying compounds in them that help the inks to dry quickly after printing. Even when the inks are dried immediately after printing, they are still softer than they will be 40 years later. On most silver age Marvels, when the book is cut during printing, the ink layer is still soft enough that it won't fracture near the edge. The edge of the ink layer will match up perfectly with the edge of the paper on a factory trim (even if the factory edge is rough cut, which is not at all uncommon on silver age Marvels, the ink layer will usually follow the factory rough cut edge).

 

When you take an X-Acto blade and trim the edge off of a book that is 40 years old, the ink layer is harder and more brittle than it was when it was originally trimmed and you will get little micro-fractures on the ink layer that don't perfectly line up with the edge of the paper. Also, it is surprisingly difficult to cut a comic cover freehand, even with a ruler to guide you. Sometimes you can look closely at the edge of a comic and see very subtle variations in what should be a perfectly straight edge.

 

Another thing you might watch for is worn corners that meet up with an edge that is straighter than you'd expect the edge to be in light of the corner damage. This is usually a good sign that the book used to be worn along the entire top edge, and the wear was trimmed away, leaving only a furry corner that transitions into an unusually "clean" edge.

 

Another thing you should watch for are little tears that will occur (they look like Marvel "pre-chipping" tears) along the edge of the book where the book was trimmed. What happens is someone tries to trim the book with a dull blade, and the paper is weak and snags on the blade. The blade then pulls the paper and tears it. This tends to happen near the spine corners because the paper will be weakest there, but it can also happen anywhere else along a trimmed edge.

 

Here are some large pictures of a Brave & the Bold #25 that was (very amateurishly) trimmed on all three edges. This will give you a good idea of the kinds of things I am talking about in the trimming section. (I am using links because these files are huge and I don't want to stretch the screen in this thread - please be patient as the files load.)

 

http://www.datazap.net/sites/fantasyfootballbono/bb25.jpg

 

http://www.datazap.net/sites/fantasyfootballbono/bb25b.jpg

 

3) Pressing can be difficult to detect if done poorly, and is impossible to detect if done well. Don't even worry about it. Focus more on learning how to spot other restoration that people actually care about.

 

4) Tear seals are usually pretty easy to spot. Even if a tear is sealed, the evidence of the tear will still be visible. If it isn't visible, that generally means that it has been color touched over, which will make the restored nature of the book even easier to see.

 

When looking for tear seals, you'll generally see them along the edges of the book, especially at the spine corners. There are three main kinds of tear seals that you'll run into most often: (a) glue alone; (b) adhesive and Japan paper; and © archival or non-archival tape.

 

Spotting glue alone is usually easy because the person doing it will have made something of a mess. The place where the tear was sealed will usually be evident by a slightly darker line where the paper was torn. Also, sometimes if you look at the paper surface at a raking angle, you'll see a difference in surface texture from glue smearing. The easiest and surest way though is with a good blacklight. Tear seals will generally light up like a Christmas tree under a blacklight. This is not to say that a blacklight is necessary to spot a tear seal, but it can definitely help confirm your suspicions about something if you're not sure what you're looking at.

 

Spotting Japan paper with adhesive will also be pretty easy for the same reason that glue alone is easy to spot - the person who applied it will not have been able to control the adhesive and will have smeared it along the area where the tear is sealed. (Remember, we are talking about amateur repairs, not a professional job.)

 

Other times there will be a slight difference in the texture from the application of a tiny piece of archival tape. If the piece of tape is small and the person applying it is really careful, it can be really easy to miss. So look carefully along the edges and the spine corners from the interior of the book. That's where the tape will have been applied. Look for the slightest variation in surface texture between the surrounding areas at the area that is under suspicion. If you still can't tell, a blacklight will light up the archival tape.

 

5) Staple replacement. This is a lot less common on amateur jobs than the other four listed above because it is extremely hard to do without making an absolute mess of the book. Staple replacement is usually done if the original staples were rusted. Rusted staples will usually leave some kind of rust migration stains on the paper next to them, which are usually most easily visible at the outside of the cover or at the interior of the centerfold. If you see any kind of widening of the staple holes on the outside of the cover, check the staple tines at the centerfold. If they don't line up perfectly with the indentations on the paper at the centerfold, they might have been replaced. Look for rust migration on the paper. If it is there, but the staples are replaced, then ask yourself where the rust came from. If it looks like it came from the staples, then the staples were probably replaced or cleaned.

 

Those are the main amateur restoration types you need to watch out for on less expensive books. As you get into more expensive books, you're more likely to run into restoration that requires disassembly of the book and a lot more effort. This should get you started though.

[gaz973]

That's really useful stuff, I'm gonna bookmark that post. I've been wanting to find the time to learn to spot resto.

 

I guess I should buy some restored books to practice on.

[Mutie Fan]

That was one of the best overall explanations I have ever seen. I found it easy to spot the trimming on the back cover of the book but not as easy to spot on the front. As I don't buy particularly high grade SA books some damage to the edge of the cover is "normal" for me. I will have to learn to identify "wear" from trimming.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. (thumbs u

[FFB]

That's really useful stuff, I'm gonna bookmark that post. I've been wanting to find the time to learn to spot resto.

 

I guess I should buy some restored books to practice on.

 

That's how I got started learning about restoration detection! (thumbs u I bought an extensively restored Amazing Fantasy #15 CGC 4.0, cracked it, and looked at it very carefully. Then I resold the cracked out book with the CGC label on ebay for a little more than I paid for it.

 

You don't need to spring for an AF#15 though. Just look at restored slabs from Heritage auctions to start. Take a look at what the labels say and then try to find the restoration on the book. The scans are often big enough in Heritage's auctions that you'll be able to see at least some of the work done to the cover.

 

Then, next time you're at a convention, take a look at some purple label CGC books and try to find the restoration through the slab. The best way to learn about restoration detection (assuming that Matt Nelson isn't your best buddy) is by starting with a book that you know is restored and trying to find the restoration on it.

[gaz973]

Sounds like a good idea to me. Never bought a restored book yet (that I know of) but I might look out for some that are going cheap. PLOD's don't turn up that much in the UK so I hope I don't have to break out the black marker pens myself.

[Davenport]

You don't need to spring for an AF#15 though. Just look at restored slabs from Heritage auctions to start. Take a look at what the labels say and then try to find the restoration on the book. The scans are often big enough in Heritage's auctions that you'll be able to see at least some of the work done to the cover.

(thumbs u Those huge Heritage scans are excellent practice.

 

Here's a good CT one. The TOS 43 in front gives "amature" a whole new meaning.

Tales of Suspense lot

 

 

 

[TrippyMcSkippy-migration]

Not to change the subject, but this thread made me wonder--whatever happened to Matthew Wilson of Fantasy Masterpieces?

 

J

[showcase4]

Not to change the subject, but this thread made me wonder--whatever happened to Matthew Wilson of Fantasy Masterpieces?

 

J

 

:frustrated: :sumo:

[outta_sight-migration]

Not to change the subject, but this thread made me wonder--whatever happened to Matthew Wilson of Fantasy Masterpieces?

 

Shhhhhh, not in front of Showcase-4

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=4&Number=1480265&Searchpage=1&Main=81303&Words=wilson+showcase-4&topic=0&Search=true#Post1480265

[DrWatson]

[Green]

Sometimes a trimmed edge will look different under magnification than a "factory" edge. One of the differences you might see will be apparent in the ink layer, not on the actual paper.

 

When you take an X-Acto blade and trim the edge off of a book that is 40 years old, the ink layer is harder and more brittle than it was when it was originally trimmed and you will get little micro-fractures on the ink layer that don't perfectly line up with the edge of the paper.

great info (thumbs u