PRESSING VERSUS DEALERS. WHERE'S THE REAL OUTRAGE?

[4GEMWORKS]

I don't have time to participate like I might like at times, but the Kudos to Matt Nelson and the "Best Dealers" thread really got my "Spidey-Sense" tingling.

 

I have bought books I am pretty sure were pressed and have had no problem with them. But that is not the real issue. In the Kudos thread it was somehow made out by some that the "greed" and "profit motive" are the motives and impure motives at that.

 

As somebody that spends in excess of six figures a year on all sorts of comics I thought I would weigh in. Simply put, many, even seemingly well meaning posters are penny wise and pound foolish.

 

I read the list of great dealers and was a bit surprised. I have bought a number of comics from many of these dealers. To name a few: I have bought a few raw books from Superworld and chocked on the over grading when I received nearly all of them. Sure, Ted makes refunds easy, but apparently not many other folks return his books as he seems to keep selling them. I'm not talking about guessing here, either, I'm talking about submitting books to CGC and getting the OK from someone like Ted to return or negotiate if the grade does not work out. The grades have never "worked out".

 

I have bought many raw books from Comic Heaven. John could easily compete with Ted for lack of grading skills. On books submitted to CGC I think the Comic Heaven books came in about 2.0 light. I got a big refund there as well.

 

Bob Storms does a great job selling graded books, but my two "raw" purchases were a problem. I bought an Amazing Adventures 1 (1961), (sold as VF/NM , I believe) a couple of years ago and after sending it in for resto check, found it was restored. This was not a cheap book. Bob gladly refunded my money, by the way.

 

I think the only dealer that I have not bought over graded books from routinely is Zilla-4. Showcase has also gotten marginally better.

 

Metropolis, again, provides easy returns, but you need them as their grading is a bit sloppy. It is better than most, however.

 

Heritage is better than most. You can get some NM books in a batch lot of VF books and also get some Fine books. It's hit and miss and they don't have a great return policy.

 

 

So what's my point? The point is that the real rip off in the comic book community has always been and continues to be dealers selling books that are vastly over-graded and/or restored. Sell me a pressed book in a Universal CGC holder any day. Please don't sell me a $5000 book as VF/NM that is actually an F/VF and may be restored.

 

I took about 100 comics a couple of years ago and sent them to CGC, just to see how things actually worked out on "stated" grades versus CGC grades. It turned out that on average books came back 2.0 lower than they were sold at, from dealers of all stature.

 

I have just come to assume that any book over about $3-400 that is not graded is probably mis graded or restored. Almost any book over a $1000 is almost always being mis-represented in some way. Given the premiums paid for graded books. No smart seller will sell books of any value raw. They would be doing themselves a disservice. At $20-$100 bucks per book, it’s foolish not to get most valuable books graded for sale to others.

 

Pressed books are a real bargain in the long run versus the dollars lost to dealers caught up in willful blindness or plain ignorance that exists in the raw book market for books of any value.

 

Forget the pressing rage, where's the real outrage over raw books sold by dealers of all sorts?

 

[FatComicMafia]

Solid points. I agree on just about everything you said. ( 'cept Showcas NewEngand, they are usually off the mark, despite there feedback.)

 

 

 

There are a few dealers out there that sell some high value raw books for a fair price and grade, but they are few and far between.

[Mr.Silvestri]

Solid points. I agree on just about everything you said.

 

 

 

There are a few dealers out there that some high value raw books for a fair price and grade, but they are few and far between.

 

 

[Moondog]

I don't have time to participate like I might like at times, but the Kudos to Matt Nelson and the "Best Dealers" thread really got my "Spidey-Sense" tingling.

 

I have bought books I am pretty sure were pressed and have had no problem with them. But that is not the real issue. In the Kudos thread it was somehow made out by some that the "greed" and "profit motive" are the motives and impure motives at that.

 

As somebody that spends in excess of six figures a year on all sorts of comics I thought I would weigh in. Simply put, many, even seemingly well meaning posters are penny wise and pound foolish.

 

I read the list of great dealers and was a bit surprised. I have bought a number of comics from many of these dealers. To name a few: I have bought a few raw books from Superworld and chocked on the over grading when I received nearly all of them. Sure, Ted makes refunds easy, but apparently not many other folks return his books as he seems to keep selling them. I'm not talking about guessing here, either, I'm talking about submitting books to CGC and getting the OK from someone like Ted to return or negotiate if the grade does not work out. The grades have never "worked out".

 

I have bought many raw books from Comic Heaven. John could easily compete with Ted for lack of grading skills. On books submitted to CGC I think the Comic Heaven books came in about 2.0 light. I got a big refund there as well.

 

Bob Storms does a great job selling graded books, but my two "raw" purchases were a problem. I bought an Amazing Adventures 1 (1961), (sold as VF/NM , I believe) a couple of years ago and after sending it in for resto check, found it was restored. This was not a cheap book. Bob gladly refunded my money, by the way.

 

I think the only dealer that I have not bought over graded books from routinely is Zilla-4. Showcase has also gotten marginally better.

 

Metropolis, again, provides easy returns, but you need them as their grading is a bit sloppy. It is better than most, however.

 

Heritage is better than most. You can get some NM books in a batch lot of VF books and also get some Fine books. It's hit and miss and they don't have a great return policy.

 

 

So what's my point? The point is that the real rip off in the comic book community has always been and continues to be dealers selling books that are vastly over-graded and/or restored. Sell me a pressed book in a Universal CGC holder any day. Please don't sell me a $5000 book as VF/NM that is actually an F/VF and may be restored.

 

I took about 100 comics a couple of years ago and sent them to CGC, just to see how things actually worked out on "stated" grades versus CGC grades. It turned out that on average books came back 2.0 lower than they were sold at, from dealers of all stature.

 

I have just come to assume that any book over about $3-400 that is not graded is probably mis graded or restored. Almost any book over a $1000 is almost always being mis-represented in some way. Given the premiums paid for graded books. No smart seller will sell books of any value raw. They would be doing themselves a disservice. At $20-$100 bucks per book, it’s foolish not to get most valuable books graded for sale to others.

 

Pressed books are a real bargain in the long run versus the dollars lost to dealers caught up in willful blindness or plain ignorance that exists in the raw book market for books of any value.

 

Forget the pressing rage, where's the real outrage over raw books sold by dealers of all sorts?

 

Goat, I can tell you with certainty that all the dealers you mentioned in your post know how to grade. Certainly within a 2.0 window. That they made such large mistakes is puzzling to me.

 

 

 

[namisgr]

While I would agree that dealers as a whole tend to be a bit more liberal grading their stock than the folks at CGC, I strongly take issue with your view that "the grades have never worked out" with the aforementioned dealers.

 

Take Ted, for example. I bought from him a gorgeous Journey Into Mystery #93 that was priced as a NM-. When I had it graded by CGC it received a 9.2. I also bought from Ted a terrific copy of Terrors of the Jungle #10. It was priced near the top of the Overstreet range. CGC gave it a 9.0, making it the stand-alone top census copy. I can give plenty of examples from Bob and other dealers you mentioned as well. What's my "secret"? Buying these books at conventions where I can look at them in person, certainly a much better strategy than buying books through the mail, especially ones that come with only front cover scans or no scans at all.

 

Also, what prices have you been paying? If you are purchasing a book graded NM- by a dealer at less than the going price of a CGC 9.0, and the book comes back from CGC as a 9.0, then where's the cause for outrage?

[awe4one]

Of the dealers you mentioned and I've dealt with multiple times, here's my view...

 

Heritage - As a general rule, I'd say 70% of the raw comics I've won were overgraded...usually by 1.0-1.5. I stopped buying from them a couple years ago because of this and other issues.

 

Ted - Hit and miss. Overall though I'd say 30% were overgraded but not by much.

 

Metropolis - Little less than half were overgraded but again not by much...

 

Bob - Solid. I've been more than happy with every raw comic I've bought from him and frankly think he undergraded a few. Best raw grader out there that isn't on this Forum.

 

Jim

[DrWatson]

I think the point to take home is that every dealer isn't going to please every customer all the time.

 

We all get it wrong. We all make mistakes. Most recently, Roy made a mistake, but he took that mistake and owned it. He made it right. That's what's important.

 

Even Jesus couldn't please everyone and despite Blazing Bob's opinion of himself, he is far from being the Son of God. (That's a joke, Bob.) At any rate, I would happily do business with him and 95% of the other dealers mentioned in the opening post.

 

I really don't think there are many of us in a position to throw stones. Rant, yes. Throw stones, no.

 

 

[FatComicMafia]

While I would agree that dealers as a whole tend to be a bit more liberal grading their stock than the folks at CGC, I strongly take issue with your view that "the grades have never worked out" with the aforementioned dealers.

 

Take Ted, for example. I bought from him a gorgeous Journey Into Mystery #93 that was priced as a NM-. When I had it graded by CGC it received a 9.2. I also bought from Ted a terrific copy of Terrors of the Jungle #10. It was priced near the top of the Overstreet range. CGC gave it a 9.0, making it the stand-alone top census copy. I can give plenty of examples from Bob and other dealers you mentioned as well.

 

 

 

 

 

Even the blind squirrel finds a nut every one in a while.

[sakaridis]

I think the point to take home is that every dealer isn't going to please every customer all the time.

 

We all get it wrong. We all make mistakes. Most recently, Roy made a mistake, but he took that mistake and owned it. He made it right. That's what's important.

 

Even Jesus couldn't please everyone and despite Blazing Bob's opinion of himself, he is far from being the Son of God. (That's a joke, Bob.) At any rate, I would happily do business with him and 95% of the other dealers mentioned in the opening post.

 

I really don't think there are many of us in a position to throw stones. Rant, yes. Throw stones, no.

 

 

[DrWatson]

While I would agree that dealers as a whole tend to be a bit more liberal grading their stock than the folks at CGC, I strongly take issue with your view that "the grades have never worked out" with the aforementioned dealers.

 

Take Ted, for example. I bought from him a gorgeous Journey Into Mystery #93 that was priced as a NM-. When I had it graded by CGC it received a 9.2. I also bought from Ted a terrific copy of Terrors of the Jungle #10. It was priced near the top of the Overstreet range. CGC gave it a 9.0, making it the stand-alone top census copy. I can give plenty of examples from Bob and other dealers you mentioned as well.

Even the blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

Just out of curiosity, how many nuts have you found?

[arexcrooke]

While I would agree that dealers as a whole tend to be a bit more liberal grading their stock than the folks at CGC, I strongly take issue with your view that "the grades have never worked out" with the aforementioned dealers.

 

Take Ted, for example. I bought from him a gorgeous Journey Into Mystery #93 that was priced as a NM-. When I had it graded by CGC it received a 9.2. I also bought from Ted a terrific copy of Terrors of the Jungle #10. It was priced near the top of the Overstreet range. CGC gave it a 9.0, making it the stand-alone top census copy. I can give plenty of examples from Bob and other dealers you mentioned as well.

 

 

Even the blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.

Just out of curiosity, how many nuts have you found?

[comicdonna]

As far as purchasing raw books, It's important to request front and back cover scans and judge for yourself the grade of the book. More than 75% of my CGC collection was purchased raw. I prefer it that way. It's nice to be able to check the entire book out for yourself before getting slabbed.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

While I would agree that dealers as a whole tend to be a bit more liberal grading their stock than the folks at CGC, I strongly take issue with your view that "the grades have never worked out" with the aforementioned dealers.

 

Take Ted, for example. I bought from him a gorgeous Journey Into Mystery #93 that was priced as a NM-. When I had it graded by CGC it received a 9.2. I also bought from Ted a terrific copy of Terrors of the Jungle #10. It was priced near the top of the Overstreet range. CGC gave it a 9.0, making it the stand-alone top census copy. I can give plenty of examples from Bob and other dealers you mentioned as well. What's my "secret"? Buying these books at conventions where I can look at them in person, certainly a much better strategy than buying books through the mail, especially ones that come with only front cover scans or no scans at all.

 

Also, what prices have you been paying? If you are purchasing a book graded NM- by a dealer at less than the going price of a CGC 9.0, and the book comes back from CGC as a 9.0, then where's the cause for outrage?

 

I agree with alot of things you say here except 1. If I buy a book as a NM-(9.2) and it gets graded a VF/NM-(9.0). The book I bought was overgraded. The price is totally irrelevant at this point. You may have gotten a screaming deal on this 9.0 but you indeed bought a book advertised as a 9.2 . You did not come out the winner. Monetary not being the point.

 

And I do agree with the original post except for a few things.

 

1. No seller can realistically sell by CGC grading standards, as nobody knows the true standards.

 

2. Sometimes sellers miss the mark. It happens. But that is also why CGC has the two other sides. "Gift Grades", and books that get "Hammered". So neither one is any less flawed.

 

3. You bought from Metropolis.. (well there you go)

 

4. Bob Storms is a great seller. I have bought from him. I did not agree with the grade on 1 book I bought from him. He moved to the grade I believed the book really was. (coincidentally I think Jim CGCWorld graded the book)

 

5. If you spend as much money as you say you do. How the hell cant you grade for yourself ? I would not be comfortable spending the kind of coin you are talking about without knowing well what I was buying.

 

 

This is not a "blast" against you. But more questions.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

[DrWatson]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

Is he more foolproof than Stephen Ritter, Richard Evans, Nick Beckett or Jim Payette? I have never purchased from him, so I am asking for the sake of education.

[namisgr]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

 

He said "fairly priced"

[ciorac]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

Is he more foolproof than Stephen Ritter, Richard Evans, Nick Beckett or Jim Payette? I have never purchased from him, so I am asking for the sake of education.

 

I don't know who Nick Beckett is, but Marnin is as solid a grader as the other three. Ritter, Evans and Payette are tip top in my book. So is Marnin.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

Is he more foolproof than Stephen Ritter, Richard Evans, Nick Beckett or Jim Payette? I have never purchased from him, so I am asking for the sake of education.

 

Gettin' our learn on

[namisgr]

I agree with alot of things you say here except 1. If I buy a book as a NM-(9.2) and it gets graded a VF/NM-(9.0). The book I bought was overgraded. The price is totally irrelevant at this point. You may have gotten a screaming deal on this 9.0 but you indeed bought a book advertised as a 9.2 . You did not come out the winner. Monetary not being the point.

 

Actually, the price one pays for a book is an essential part of the equation. For instance, Ted often prices high grade raw books near Overstreet. Sometimes, one can buy from Ted a 9.2 book that Ted has graded NM, and get it for a very reasonable price for a CGC 9.2. In cases like this, the price matters alot.

 

Also keep in mind that the CGC numerical grade doesn't take into consideration the cover wrap, staple placement, cover color preservation, and other features that contribute to the overall appeal of high grade books. Because of these additional variables, prices can vary quite a bit on books with similar structure (and comparable CGC numerical grades), as it clearly and profoundly does with regard to page quality. If a book is priced at $250 and one asks the seller what grade the book is, the seller can rightly respond "$250". It's certainly relevant along with the aforementioned additional characteristics.