PRESSING VERSUS DEALERS. WHERE'S THE REAL OUTRAGE?

[DrWatson]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

Is he more foolproof than Stephen Ritter, Richard Evans, Nick Beckett or Jim Payette? I have never purchased from him, so I am asking for the sake of education.

 

I don't know who Nick Beckett is, but Marnin is as solid a grader as the other three. Ritter, Evans and Payette are tip top in my book. So is Marnin.

Nick is Flaming_Telepath.

[DrWatson]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

Is he more foolproof than Stephen Ritter, Richard Evans, Nick Beckett or Jim Payette? I have never purchased from him, so I am asking for the sake of education.

 

Gettin' our learn on

What's up, Chrissy?

[TupennyConan]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

Is he more foolproof than Stephen Ritter, Richard Evans, Nick Beckett or Jim Payette? I have never purchased from him, so I am asking for the sake of education.

 

I don't know who Nick Beckett is, but Marnin is as solid a grader as the other three. Ritter, Evans and Payette are tip top in my book. So is Marnin.

Nick is Flaming_Telepath.

 

Interesting. Hey! So who is stalkinghorse, I mean goat?

[namisgr]

Hey! So who is stalkinghorse, I mean goat?

 

An outraged collector?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

Is he more foolproof than Stephen Ritter, Richard Evans, Nick Beckett or Jim Payette? I have never purchased from him, so I am asking for the sake of education.

 

Gettin' our learn on

What's up, Chrissy?

 

 

 

 

[ArAich]

I took about 100 comics a couple of years ago and sent them to CGC, just to see how things actually worked out on "stated" grades versus CGC grades. It turned out that on average books came back 2.0 lower than they were sold at, from dealers of all stature.

 

 

Seems to me...if you spend over "6 figures" on comics per year then you should probably hone your grading skills...but then...that's just me...

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I agree with alot of things you say here except 1. If I buy a book as a NM-(9.2) and it gets graded a VF/NM-(9.0). The book I bought was overgraded. The price is totally irrelevant at this point. You may have gotten a screaming deal on this 9.0 but you indeed bought a book advertised as a 9.2 . You did not come out the winner. Monetary not being the point.

 

Actually, the price one pays for a book is an essential part of the equation. For instance, Ted often prices high grade raw books near Overstreet. Sometimes, one can buy from Ted a 9.2 book that Ted has graded NM, and get it for a very reasonable price for a CGC 9.2. In cases like this, the price matters alot.

 

Also keep in mind that the CGC numerical grade doesn't take into consideration the cover wrap, staple placement, cover color preservation, and other features that contribute to the overall appeal of high grade books. Because of these additional variables, prices can vary quite a bit on books with similar structure (and comparable CGC numerical grades), as it clearly and profoundly does with regard to page quality. If a book is priced at $250 and one asks the seller what grade the book is, the seller can rightly respond "$250". It's certainly relevant along with the aforementioned additional characteristics.

 

What I am saying is that when you are buying a book with a specific grade you would like. I agree with what you are saying. But what I am saying is customer X wanted a Who Cares in 9.2, so he buys a book. He gets the book graded and ends up with Who Cares CGC 9.0 with perfect centering, beautiful color gloss, white pages and perfect staple placement. While the book will certainly bring a very solid return, he only collects 9.2's so the book gets sold. Whether he turns a profit or not. The hunt continues.

 

I am speaking more of label chasing then actually just wanting a HG copy. In such a situation I would most likely be totally content with the 9.0 (providing I didnt pay GPA for a 9.2)

 

 

[TupennyConan]

Hey! So who is stalkinghorse, I mean goat?

 

An outraged collector?

 

The fastest way to apparent sainthood is through the demonstration of outrage.

[Ghost Town]

1. No seller can realistically sell by CGC grading standards, as nobody knows the true standards.

I think dealers can sell by CGC standards. There have been a lot of threads on these boards where people have shown us the the books they just got back from CGC. The posters told us how they thought their books would grade and what the actual CGC grade was. It's amazing how often the grades were spot on or just .2 or .5 off. If collectors can do it, I don't think it's asking a lot for dealers to do the same.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

1. No seller can realistically sell by CGC grading standards, as nobody knows the true standards.

I think dealers can sell by CGC standards. There have been a lot of threads on these boards where people have shown us the the books they just got back from CGC. The posters told us how they thought their books would grade and what the actual CGC grade was. It's amazing how often the grades were spot on or just .2 or .5 off. If collectors can do it, I don't think it's asking a lot for dealers to do the same.

 

I should have put the stipulation in there. Actually I did but I dont think it was very clear. So let me say this.

 

It was like I said with CGC "gift grades" or getting "hammered" it IS entirely possible to have a high percent where you nail the grade with them. But anyone who has submitted has had at LEAST one book that got "hammered"

 

I think there are alot of dealers who are pretty much onto what CGC "would" grade a book. But every once in awhile they love to throw that nasty curve ball.

 

Know what I mean?

[TheShadowKnows]

Interesting dilemma....

 

Slabbed books are pressed

 

Raw books are overgraded and/or restored

 

What must one do to acquire undoctored books that are accurately graded & fairly priced?

 

Buy from Marnin.

Is he more foolproof than Stephen Ritter, Richard Evans, Nick Beckett or Jim Payette? I have never purchased from him, so I am asking for the sake of education.

 

I don't know who Nick Beckett is, but Marnin is as solid a grader as the other three. Ritter, Evans and Payette are tip top in my book. So is Marnin.

That is what I have heard also.Only problem with Marnin is you will pay more.His books wont be pressed but you will pay more.

[Ghost Town]

1. No seller can realistically sell by CGC grading standards, as nobody knows the true standards.

I think dealers can sell by CGC standards. There have been a lot of threads on these boards where people have shown us the the books they just got back from CGC. The posters told us how they thought their books would grade and what the actual CGC grade was. It's amazing how often the grades were spot on or just .2 or .5 off. If collectors can do it, I don't think it's asking a lot for dealers to do the same.

 

I should have put the stipulation in there. Actually I did but I dont think it was very clear. So let me say this.

 

It was like I said with CGC "gift grades" or getting "hammered" it IS entirely possible to have a high percent where you nail the grade with them. But anyone who has submitted has had at LEAST one book that got "hammered"

 

I think there are alot of dealers who are pretty much onto what CGC "would" grade a book. But every once in awhile they love to throw that nasty curve ball.

 

Know what I mean?

I know what you mean. But I don't think it's the one book that gets hammered that's the problem. It's the dealers who consistently over-grade that's the problem. And in my opinion, there are far more dealers who over-grade than than grade accurately.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

1. No seller can realistically sell by CGC grading standards, as nobody knows the true standards.

I think dealers can sell by CGC standards. There have been a lot of threads on these boards where people have shown us the the books they just got back from CGC. The posters told us how they thought their books would grade and what the actual CGC grade was. It's amazing how often the grades were spot on or just .2 or .5 off. If collectors can do it, I don't think it's asking a lot for dealers to do the same.

 

I should have put the stipulation in there. Actually I did but I dont think it was very clear. So let me say this.

 

It was like I said with CGC "gift grades" or getting "hammered" it IS entirely possible to have a high percent where you nail the grade with them. But anyone who has submitted has had at LEAST one book that got "hammered"

 

I think there are alot of dealers who are pretty much onto what CGC "would" grade a book. But every once in awhile they love to throw that nasty curve ball.

 

Know what I mean?

I know what you mean. But I don't think it's the one book that gets hammered that's the problem. It's the dealers who consistently over-grade that's the problem. And in my opinion, there are far more dealers who over-grade than than grade accurately.

 

I agree with you. It is hard to find dealers who grade accurately. I sell books, and I can see where that.5 can mean significant amounts of cash in some instances. But the money you may make does not compare to having a great reputation and return customers. I would much rather have happy customers who come back.

[rodan57]

Also keep in mind that the CGC numerical grade doesn't take into consideration the cover wrap, staple placement, cover color preservation, and other features that contribute to the overall appeal of high grade books. Because of these additional variables, prices can vary quite a bit on books with similar structure (and comparable CGC numerical grades), as it clearly and profoundly does with regard to page quality

 

Amen.

[Ogami]

Hey! So who is stalkinghorse, I mean goat?

 

An outraged collector?

 

The fastest way to apparent sainthood is through the demonstration of outrage.

 

game on, CGC!!!

[4GEMWORKS]

While I would agree that dealers as a whole tend to be a bit more liberal grading their stock than the folks at CGC, I strongly take issue with your view that "the grades have never worked out" with the aforementioned dealers.

 

Take Ted, for example. I bought from him a gorgeous Journey Into Mystery #93 that was priced as a NM-. When I had it graded by CGC it received a 9.2. I also bought from Ted a terrific copy of Terrors of the Jungle #10. It was priced near the top of the Overstreet range. CGC gave it a 9.0, making it the stand-alone top census copy. I can give plenty of examples from Bob and other dealers you mentioned as well. What's my "secret"? Buying these books at conventions where I can look at them in person, certainly a much better strategy than buying books through the mail, especially ones that come with only front cover scans or no scans at all.

 

Also, what prices have you been paying? If you are purchasing a book graded NM- by a dealer at less than the going price of a CGC 9.0, and the book comes back from CGC as a 9.0, then where's the cause for outrage?

 

I agree with alot of things you say here except 1. If I buy a book as a NM-(9.2) and it gets graded a VF/NM-(9.0). The book I bought was overgraded. The price is totally irrelevant at this point. You may have gotten a screaming deal on this 9.0 but you indeed bought a book advertised as a 9.2 . You did not come out the winner. Monetary not being the point.

 

And I do agree with the original post except for a few things.

 

1. No seller can realistically sell by CGC grading standards, as nobody knows the true standards.

 

2. Sometimes sellers miss the mark. It happens. But that is also why CGC has the two other sides. "Gift Grades", and books that get "Hammered". So neither one is any less flawed.

 

3. You bought from Metropolis.. (well there you go)

 

4. Bob Storms is a great seller. I have bought from him. I did not agree with the grade on 1 book I bought from him. He moved to the grade I believed the book really was. (coincidentally I think Jim CGCWorld graded the book)

 

5. If you spend as much money as you say you do. How the hell cant you grade for yourself ? I would not be comfortable spending the kind of coin you are talking about without knowing well what I was buying.

 

 

This is not a "blast" against you. But more questions.

 

These are all valid questions Resurrection and I am glad to respond to legitimate debating points!

 

Stalking goat = 4GEMWORKS COMIC BOOK EMPORIUM

 

And I do agree with the original post except for a few things.

 

1. No seller can realistically sell by CGC grading standards, as nobody knows the true standards.

 

This may be true, but as noted by others, why is it that when submitted most seem to consistently grade well under what CGC ends up grading the book at?

 

Incidentally, I have had Matt Nelson look at books for me. He can ascertain the grade of a book almost exactly, almost all of the time.

 

2. Sometimes sellers miss the mark. It happens. But that is also why CGC has the two other sides. "Gift Grades", and books that get "Hammered". So neither one is any less flawed.

 

I have submitted over 1000 books to CGC for my personal collection. Honstly "gift grades" are the exception. It rarely happens. More often the book gets hammered because you were unaware of some flaw..ie missing or changed staple

 

3. You bought from Metropolis.. (well there you go)

 

point conceded

 

4. Bob Storms is a great seller. I have bought from him. I did not agree with the grade on 1 book I bought from him. He moved to the grade I believed the book really was. (coincidentally I think Jim CGCWorld graded the book)

 

I'm not meaning to single out any particular dealer. These were mentioned and I've done business with them. My experience was not that good. My point is as a rule, the books are not what they are sold as.

 

5. If you spend as much money as you say you do. How the hell cant you grade for yourself ? I would not be comfortable spending the kind of coin you are talking about without knowing well what I was buying.

 

I'd dare say I am an extremely good grader. I'm guessing I return 70% of all raw comics I buy. When I bought from Comic Heaven last year I made a deal with John. To prove a point I told him rather than return the 10 or more EC books I bought I'd send them to CGC. If they came back more than 1.0 off the advertised price, he'd send me the difference of what I paid compared to 0.75 of the guide on the actual grade the book got. I also promised to pay more if the book graded out. Not a single book was even close.

 

John will tell you about all the Mile High books he has and he seems to know what he is talking baout. I'm guessing he does know how to grade. But for whatever reason, the advertiosed grades are not the same as grades I would expect.

 

 

I don't have the time to attend a lot of conventions, so I don't have the luxury of looking at the books in person , most of the time. If I can get a money back return, it's really no skin off my back. In the long run, maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 are worth buying.

 

I return a whole lot less than I used to because these days I mostly play it safe and buy 70-80% graded books to save on time and energy.

 

The big problem is that in certain areas like Goldem Age Westerns, the books are not valuable enough to get graded, so there is no other choice sometimes but to give it a chance in raw form.

 

I would not buy a high grade (9.4+) Spidey ungraded unless I had unusual inside information. WIth the price of high grade slabbed Spidey's, it is just not economical to sell them raw.

 

Let me reiterate something that may not be clear: I do not buy raw books that are not advertised as coming with a 100% money back guarantee..

 

 

This is not a "blast" against you. But more questions

 

One board member noted that he found a good deal at a convention with Ted. I concede the possibility that some books will occassionally work out. But that is the exceptiuon and not the rule. Besides that, the very fact that it was emphasized that you needed to see it in person acknowledges that buying sight unseen via mail, well, just might not work out.

 

To drive back to my main point: What hurts people more: Being sold mis/overgraded books or being sold a pressed book in a CGC holder?

 

I guess, really, the broader question is the age old question of buying graded books period, versus raw books. In that context, a pressed book becomes a pretty small part of my assesment.

 

Lastly, on the point of whether a book is sold as 9.4, is bought cheap ends up as a CGC 9.0 and still comes out as a deal versus what it is worth. I'm not really interested in that. When I buy a 9.4, I want a 9.4. Often, Ii already have a 9.0 or a 9.2.

 

I just wonder how much of the raw book grading is really "accidental"?

 

 

[TupennyConan]

Stalking goat = 4GEMWORKS COMIC BOOK EMPORIUM

 

Hi! I'm Bill but I prefer Tupenny when I'm lucky enough to steal time away from life's troubles to post on the Boards.

 

So, how's your grading 4GEMWORKS COMIC BOOK EMPORIUM?

[Aman619]

Lastly, on the point of whether a book is sold as 9.4, is bought cheap ends up as a CGC 9.0 and still comes out as a deal versus what it is worth. I'm not really interested in that. When I buy a 9.4, I want a 9.4. Often, Ii already have a 9.0 or a 9.2.

 

I just wonder how much of the raw book grading is really "accidental"?

 

 

you make great points. This one especially. I hate buying an "upgrade" only to find out its yet another upgradable copy...

 

but on another point, related to this, grade and price are inextricably linked. If you pay the 9.0 price for a book sold as a NM, and CGC gives it a 9.0, you are okay financially. But you lose if the price was GPA 9.4. Same if it doesnt even grade out at the price you paid.

 

Overall, I agree that dealers who sell raw books like the wiggle room to overgrade. But, lets face it, sending books to CGC takes time and adds to overhead of the book. If I were selling, I think Id only slab the truly worthy HG book sand save money and time selling the rest raw.

[FatComicMafia]

yes those are good points.

 

Although Ted is a good character , I bought from him in the early 1990's via CBG ( remember back then no real images, no scans, no emails) twice.

 

 

 

And I'll tell you why I was dumb enough for a second time.

 

 

1) First time I bought a silver age book labeled as a VF, the item comes in along with a crunched corner. The box didn't look like it took a beating, but you never know.

Overall the item was a fine at best, assuming there was damage in the shipping.

 

 

I called Ted, nice guy to speak with, and we filed a claim with the post office as it was insured. It took like 2 months for Ted to finally submit his end of the papers, he did and like 53 months later I got a refund from the USPS.

 

 

A year later, I get a catalog from Superworld( Ted) and there was another nice book I wanted labled as VF.

 

On the title page they stated that their grading has tighten up, and is tighter than ever.

 

 

So I ordered it, it came in fine in regards to shipping, but it also came in about fine plus condition. It ended up being too much a headache so I kept it. remember this was sold asa strict VF.

 

 

So, a decade later , since the book was worth something, I get the damn thing slabbed and it comes back a 6.5.

 

 

Years later I go to the Superworld's booth at a convention, and the prices just do not equate to the actual grade. I was able to get only a 20% discount on a book I really wanted after really getting down to the bones of it, and beating Ted relentlessly on the price, and frankly I only bought it because it was rare, and grossly undervalued in guide, even though I was paying for a grade or two higher that the actual grade.

 

 

I got a a million stories like these since I've been buying book off and on since the mid 80's, when I was barely a teenager, but with already an obsessive-compulsive eye. I don't dare share too many stories, as I'll have no dealer that would drink with me at the conventions shin-digs if I keep it up.

 

 

 

Bought from Showcase NewEngland on ebay a while back. Their feedback was really good, so I took a stab, all the book were over graded by at least one full grade.

 

and the NM 9.4's were 8.5/ 9.0's at best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FatComicMafia]

also, when I wrote, "even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while." I meant once in a blue moon some of these s will sell you a book at the right grade/ price, but how often does a blue moon come along ?