PRESSING VERSUS DEALERS. WHERE'S THE REAL OUTRAGE?

[blazingbob]

What other books have you bought from me?

 

Who taught you how to grade?

 

CGC sent you their grading standards, I've submitted over 10K books to get graded and I'm still trying to get them down. My grading isn't accidental, I've been trying to grade to CGC standards for years.

 

Problem is the minute a book goes to a show that grade could change depending on how many times it's handled. Ever watch what happens to my inventory during a convention?

 

And frankly what does this mean?

 

My point is as a rule, the books are not what they are sold as.

 

I feel a Steve Borock type post coming from me shortly so I'll count to ten before I read this thread again.

 

When somebody tells me I can't grade I'm all ears for them to come over and show me how.

 

 

[awe4one]

Stalking goat = 4GEMWORKS COMIC BOOK EMPORIUM

 

Hi! I'm Bill but I prefer Tupenny when I'm lucky enough to steal time away from life's troubles to post on the Boards.

 

So, how's your grading 4GEMWORKS COMIC BOOK EMPORIUM?

 

That's an excellent question...

 

Jim

[Aman619]

What other books have you bought from me?

 

Who taught you how to grade?

 

CGC sent you their grading standards, I've submitted over 10K books to get graded and I'm still trying to get them down. My grading isn't accidental, I've been trying to grade to CGC standards for years.

 

Problem is the minute a book goes to a show that grade could change depending on how many times it's handled. Ever watch what happens to my inventory during a convention?

 

And frankly what does this mean?

 

My point is as a rule, the books are not what they are sold as.

 

 

 

appears to be missing the comma after "is"

[FatComicMafia]

In respect to Blazing-Bob, I think his grading is at the least,.... Overstreet Standards.

 

Pretty close to CGC , not always on the money, but pretty solid, to be within reason.

He can play a game of horse shoe with CGC.

 

 

 

My earlier posts, and main beef, are those who can't even come close to Overstreet Standards.

 

 

And yes, I think that Stalkergoat's example of Matt Nelson predicting grades is pretty darn good one. He might not always be on the mark either, but as close as it gets, aside from dealers that under grade, which isn't accurate either, but I'm happy with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[blazingbob]

This is not directed to you but HOW can I be 100% accurate with CGC grading?

 

I've NEVER seen their grading standards, there are 3 graders against me and we have never sat in a room together and graded books. I've never graded books with Steve Borock in the same room either.

 

And should I state that I've had CGC prescreen my inventory at shows and still get rejected books back? Should I get on here and state that CGC can't grade either? Should I post all the WTF CGC grades and question what were they thinking when they graded this? I've cracked out some CGC books and was amazed at what I was looking at. I've even sent a couple of those books back to CGC for regrading.

 

I work really hard to accurately grade. Undergrading books just so you are always right is a COP OUT and frankly shows no confidence in your ability to grade.

 

EVERY raw book in my inventory does not need to be CGC graded. I serve customers who buy raw books and I serve customers who want CGC books. Just because I have a raw copy does not mean I overgraded it. How many graded post 1966 Amazing spider-man's do I need to have?

 

[Ogami]

I work really hard to accurately grade. Undergrading books just so you are always right is a COP OUT and frankly shows no confidence in your ability to grade.

 

I agree with this. I catch myself undergrading often, and I have to remind myself there are no Boy Scout acheivement badges for this.

 

And yes, I've overgraded too.

 

I think any dealer who gets it right, with a really good percentage, deserves respect.

 

I've bought from dealers who consistently overgrade, and I simply don't keep buying from them.

[FFNut]

As somebody that spends in excess of six figures a year on all sorts of comics...

 

We simply have to meet.

[blazingbob]

You sarcastic $$$$$$$$

 

Even Jesus couldn't please everyone and despite Blazing Bob's opinion of himself, he is far from being the Son of God.

 

I'm offended that you would deny me the center of the universe

 

 

[4GEMWORKS]

Bob is a bit upset, I see, but I meant him no harm. In fact his post makes much of my point for me.

 

quote=blazingbob]What other books have you bought from me?

 

But to answer Bob directly, I bougt an ASM #5 CGC 9.0, and an ASM #7 CGC 9.2. I thought I got good deals on both and was very happy.

 

I then bought an Amazing Adventures 1(1961) , graded by you as VF/NM for at least guide. I sent it to Matt Nelson who advised it had been restored, color touch or something. You sent me a full refund. Later I bought a Two Gun Kid 8 sold as VF/NM. I sent it back as I thought it was closer to a 7.5 or 8.0. Over two years later it still sits on your site as VF/NM with a note that CGC would not encapsulate it. I guess I'd call it a draw. So i bought two graded books with very good luck and two raw books with no such luck. At the very least, I'd happily buy graded books from you again.

 

But the point made is simple, ungraded books , even from an esteemed dealer as yourself, have the inherent problem of possesing, at the very least, undetectable restoration to many collectors. I do not claim to be a restoration expert of any sort.

Who taught you how to grade?

 

I learned as many have through trial and error, reading Overstreet very carefully. Whether you agree or disagree, I happen to think CGC grades quite compatibally with Overstreet.

 

I have also learned, even through my own grading that there appears to be an unshakeable sellers bias to overgrading. A couple of years ago I sent in a run of 200 books or so for my personal collection. Even knowing I was keeping track for accuracy purposes, I still came in at 0.25 points on average above the actual CGC grades. The primary cuplrit: The occasional book that gets hammered for defects I just couldn't seem to notice.

 

The difference between myself and some dealers is this: I recognize the likelyhood that I might overgrade books due to seller/owner bias. As a rule-Any book worth over $100 goes in for grading on the value tier, at least. That might seem silly, but I know from experience that I will get more money for the book, even after I pay the grading and shipping cost.

 

Note, I am only selling surplus inventory and duplicates for the most part. Raw books I do sell are generally worth far less than $100. Like many people I have acquired thousands of books that I never really intended to own. When I do sell them, I tend to grade them, and then knock a half a grade off and then offer 100% refund for book and shipping if the buyer is unhappy. I've never had a return yet.

 

CGC sent you their grading standards, I've submitted over 10K books to get graded and I'm still trying to get them down. My grading isn't accidental, I've been trying to grade to CGC standards for years.

 

I would suggest you get more books graded, even if it's on the value tier.

 

Problem is the minute a book goes to a show that grade could change depending on how many times it's handled. Ever watch what happens to my inventory during a convention?

 

This could not possibly be more supportive of the point I am trying to make. A raw book deteriorates virtually every time a human hand touches it. Who knows if a book is dropped on a corner or has a page torn when your back is turned. You could be Superman and not be able to reduce that problem. Have you ever seen what a mylat edge can do to a spine or cover edge when it goes in just a little crooked...Yikes.

 

You could be the best grader in the world and circumstances that exist , inherent to your businees, can reduce the grade of a book. That is not going to happen with a CGC book. Sure somebody might drop the case and crack it, but the book might at least survive, undamaged!

 

And frankly what does this mean?

 

My point is as a rule, the books are not what they are sold as.

 

My point exactly....

 

I feel a Steve Borock type post coming from me shortly so I'll count to ten before I read this thread again.

 

When somebody tells me I can't grade I'm all ears for them to come over and show me how.

 

So we are clear, the issues I had were with undisclosed restoration (I'm not saying you knew) and the Two Gun that CGC would not grade.

 

 

 

In conclusion. may I repeat: As a dealer, with a 20% discount on grading at CGC, a book worth less than $100 can now be graded for less than $20. From what I have seen with books over the past 10 years or so, since CGC has been around, graded books will sell for far more than a book advertised in similar condition raw, high grade or even mid grade. (We've all seen the very impressive ads by CGC in all the trade magazines). If you are going to sell books to strangers by mail, why not spend the time and money? If, as a buyer, you don't like slabs, buy the book and free that baby when it arrives in the mail. At least you'll know you got roughly what you expected.

 

Say what you want about CGC but I think 90 out of 100 collectors will suggest that CGC grading is on the conservative side , if anything. I have yet to see a string posted about liberal grading going on at CGC???

[blazingbob]

What exactly is accomplished by doing what you state - The posters told us how they thought their books would grade and what the actual CGC grade was. It's amazing how often the grades were spot on or just .2 or .5 off. If collectors can do it, I don't think it's asking a lot for dealers to do the same.

 

1). If the book comes in the grade the dealer stated then people assume that the dealer can grade. You are also assuming that the dealer is honest in stating what the grade was before he sent it in to be graded. I don't have a "Pending CGC grading status" in my database that collectors can view. Technically that opens me up to questions like "Why can't I buy this book?".

 

2). If the book comes in lower the collector assumes the dealer can't grade.

 

3). If the book comes in higher some collectors assume CGC can't grade.

 

Somehow I don't see who wins in all of this.

 

This is what CGC was supposed to eliminate, grading arguments. If you want a specific grade buy a CGC graded book.

 

 

[blazingbob]

If you are so confident of your grading why are you doing this - When I do sell them, I tend to grade them, and then knock a half a grade off and then offer 100% refund for book and shipping if the buyer is unhappy. I've never had a return yet.

 

I am not going to grade my books and knock a 1/2 grade off. To satisfy who? The 2% of the grading population that are ballistic graders? We disagreed on 2 books? The Amazing Adventures #1 I co-own with Metropolis, it is now on my site as a restored book, the other book we disagree on the grade. I never asked what CGC would have graded it when I sent it in.

 

I'll say it again - If everyone graded to CGC's unpublished standards than I should be able to buy books from collectors and dealers at shows, send them in and get the same grade. And I've even bought books from members on these boards, they aren't batting 100% on CGC grading either. Should I out them also?

 

As far as your $20 cost goes, let's see 20,000 books * $20 = $400K.

 

CGC would love me for a submission this large.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrBedrock]

From what I have seen with books over the past 10 years or so, since CGC has been around, graded books will sell for far more than a book advertised in similar condition raw, high grade or even mid grade.

This, in fact, is not true of a vast majority of comics. It only applies to the very highest grades of any given specific issue.

[Ogami]

From what I have seen with books over the past 10 years or so, since CGC has been around, graded books will sell for far more than a book advertised in similar condition raw, high grade or even mid grade.

This, in fact, is not true of a vast majority of comics. It only applies to the very highest grades of any given specific issue.

 

I agree with this. I get better deals on ebay buying CGC mid grades than raw. People like to gamble, what can I say?

[Foolkiller]

There's something that's part of this debate that isn't being discussed... we're talking about instances where dealers over grade... what about when they undergrade? Much like Bob Siman, I have had many "wins" by carefully inspecting books from every dealer if I can do so in person and make my own evaluation.

 

I've bought from Storms, Ted Van Liew, Harley Yee, Motor City, Steve Ritter and almost every major dealer. Each and every one of them has over graded books in my opinion and under graded. I've also sold books to many dealers as well. Each time I've had books I'm sure they thought were over/undergraded. Somehow, we always came to a deal as well.

 

The bottom line is that nobody is perfect. Al Stoltz once told me that he thinks he grades fairly but that these days, people are all trying to make a "score" off the dealer and get a book that is undergraded I'm starting to think more and more that is true.

 

Marnin was once a tight grader, but most people who used to buy from him have told me privately his grading has deteriorated. So there are people here who think that his grading is tight, there are plenty of other people who think it's not great now. The same as the opinion expressed here... it's just another opinion... we could take every dealer and dissect them... same as what Greggy said the other day... it's not like everyone here on the boards is a perfect grader either. Myself included.

[4GEMWORKS]

As far as your $20 cost goes, let's see 20,000 books * $20 = $400K.

 

CGC would love me for a submission this large.

 

 

 

 

As far as your $20 cost goes, let's see 20,000 books * $20 = $400K.

 

CGC would love me for a submission this large.

 

You might love yourself more. What if you made just $30 a book more?

 

$20,000 * ( $30-$20) = $200,000 more in your pocket...we can all do math...forget 20,000. Try it on 200 and see what happens....

 

 

Frankly, this is getting way off point. The general point was that given the hoopla over pressing, the real culprit of overgrading is sneaking under the fence. I'll concede that Blazing Bob may be the best grader on the board. It is not central to my argument.

 

At the level of book I am trying to buy for my long term collection, I simply don't believe, any more that it is worth the risk of buying raw books.

 

In the lower traunch levels it remains very much...buyer beware.

[Dale Roberts]

This is not directed to you but HOW can I be 100% accurate with CGC grading?

 

I've NEVER seen their grading standards, there are 3 graders against me and we have never sat in a room together and graded books. I've never graded books with Steve Borock in the same room either.

 

And should I state that I've had CGC prescreen my inventory at shows and still get rejected books back? Should I get on here and state that CGC can't grade either? Should I post all the WTF CGC grades and question what were they thinking when they graded this? I've cracked out some CGC books and was amazed at what I was looking at. I've even sent a couple of those books back to CGC for regrading.

 

I work really hard to accurately grade. Undergrading books just so you are always right is a COP OUT and frankly shows no confidence in your ability to grade.

 

EVERY raw book in my inventory does not need to be CGC graded. I serve customers who buy raw books and I serve customers who want CGC books. Just because I have a raw copy does not mean I overgraded it. How many graded post 1966 Amazing spider-man's do I need to have?

 

Not to mention that CGC has 3 graders on each book and more often than not (despite them being trained to know their grading standards), they disagree on grades. Why? Because grading is SUBJECTIVE. Turn over any slab and read the back and you will see that this is stated by CGC themselves. Every book graded by CGC is influenced by the books which they have previously graded. If they are looking at 10 books in a row that are 9.6 - 9.8 range, a 9.4 book is going to look that much worse. If they have just graded 20 8.5 - 9.0s, a 9.4 book is going to look that much better. Not to mention a hundred other factors, such as that Mark reportedly(allegedly?) doesn't like Silver Age and Bronze Age books and might tend to grade them tougher, that he hates tanning and halos and will hammer the out of a grade for them(which is ridiculous in most cases since they do in fact already grade the page quality), or just normal life occurences like when the grader spent the weekend partying(ahem Steve ahem), and might come in tired, or hung over, or just grumpy. Or maybe somebody just had a major fight with a girlfriend and is generally POed at the world and the grades that day suffer.

And all those things which affect a CGC grader, also affect a dealer grading books.

 

Bob is right as well about the wear books suffer from the time they are originally graded until they make their way to a few conventions, get handled by a few people that don't know what they are doing and get opened 32 times so someone can smell the book.

 

Bob asked a very legitimate question. It is your money. You are the one purchasing the book. That makes it your responsibility to learn to grade. If a dealer is telling you a book is an 8.0 and you think it is a 7.0 and you buy it anyway, then whose fault is that.

 

By the way, Heritage and Comiclink and anyone who is selling books on commission is better served to UNDERGRADE the books, as it reduces returns and hassles over grading disputes. Plus, they have nothing invested in the books. They will still get there 10 - 29%(depending on where you sell) regardless if the book is a 7.0 or 8.0.

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

If you want a specific grade buy a CGC graded book.

 

 

Exactly

[Ghost Town]

What exactly is accomplished by doing what you state - The posters told us how they thought their books would grade and what the actual CGC grade was. It's amazing how often the grades were spot on or just .2 or .5 off. If collectors can do it, I don't think it's asking a lot for dealers to do the same.

 

1). If the book comes in the grade the dealer stated then people assume that the dealer can grade. You are also assuming that the dealer is honest in stating what the grade was before he sent it in to be graded. I don't have a "Pending CGC grading status" in my database that collectors can view. Technically that opens me up to questions like "Why can't I buy this book?".

 

2). If the book comes in lower the collector assumes the dealer can't grade.

 

3). If the book comes in higher some collectors assume CGC can't grade.

 

Somehow I don't see who wins in all of this.

 

This is what CGC was supposed to eliminate, grading arguments. If you want a specific grade buy a CGC graded book.

 

Bob, I think you're one of the more accurate grading dealers out there. My comment wasn't directed at you. But you are one of the exceptions to the rule.

 

My point was that if more dealers truly wanted to grade strictly and accurately, I think they could. But for whatever reasons, that's rarely the way it is.

[FFNut]

Forgive a newbie for interjecting, but wouldn't it be kind of prudent, if you were spending hundreds or thousands on stated high grade books, to take a look at them first hand before dishing out big bucks, regardless of the dealer or whether or not they were slabbed? Why rely on the internet for such transactions? If you are going to spend a few hundred or certainly if you are going to spend a few grand on a book, I think it might be worthwhile to dish out a couple of hundred for plane fare or gas money. But what do I know?

[FatComicMafia]

Forgive a newbie for interjecting, but wouldn't it be kind of prudent, if you were spending hundreds or thousands on stated high grade books, to take a look at them first hand before dishing out big bucks, regardless of the dealer or whether or not they were slabbed? Why rely on the internet for such transactions? If you are going to spend a few hundred or certainly if you are going to spend a few grand on a book, I think it might be worthwhile to dish out a couple of hundred for plane fare or gas money. But what do I know?

 

 

TIME.......... plus when you know a dealer that grades right, it gives one the luxury of being able to buy from the internet. That is why people shell out big bucks at auction for CGC slabbed books, when they themselves never seen the books in hand, they trust the grading.