Steve Ditko

[MedicAR]

I'm trying to rationalize his point of view as I've had some small experience working with creators that people have subsequently labelled crazy, irrational and small-minded. There are many similarities between Ditko and Sim, and Sim's pov has helped me understand Ditko a little more clearly.

 

I've never put Sim and Ditko together like that, but now that you say it, I can see the similarities.

 

Most of us are approaching this from a fan's point of view.....On the other hand, we are talking about a commercial artist working in a commercial art form. I have some sympathy for people working within the comics industry because it not a healthy work environment and that if you let certain things bother you you'll really grow to despise it - and clearly certain things really bothered Ditko.

 

That's what we have to remember. To us, his work is as alive now as it was when it was brand new. In his mind, it was a job that he completed, got paid for, and has since moved on. He has no interest in revisiting that time or that work. He has said he is more interested in telling stories than re-creating anything he has ever done or more than creating an image for a litho or print. He wants to tell stories.

 

When it comes to the end of the Lee/Ditko partnership I completely understand why it fell apart and I can appreciate and sympathize with both sides of the argument. I don't see the fault in either man's point of view. I do kind of disagree with Stan taking full credit for creating Spider-Man, and I understand why Ditko doesn't like Stan's later statements that since "he (Ditko) wanted to be co-creator, I (Stan Lee) said it's okay - he (Ditko) can be the co-creator, that's good with me (Stan Lee)" because it comes across as being generousity (and kind of pompous) instead of fact. Facts (aka the truth), really mean a lot to Ditko --- much more than anything to do with being labelled Co-Creator of Spider-Man (which he is referred to, no matter what Stan says).

 

I agree whole heartedly. I think that it's really condescending to say "he can be the co-creator." Ditko created the look, the red and blue costume, the webs, the colorful villains, the nerdy Peter Parker, etc..... Stan created the name. That looks like I'm minimizing Stan's contribution on the surface, but Ditko wouldn't have had anything to build on without that name. Stan had a cool name, Ditko creates amazing imagery. Together, it's a great team and neither would have anything memorable at all (Spidey-related) without the other.

 

When it comes to the 'no autographs kid' policy, I can see that it is entirely formed by abuses the man experienced in the past and a healthy avoidance of repeating that kind of scenario. Ultimately, experience has made him into a cranky old shut-in. He doesn't trust people - despise is kind of extreme as he has softened when people don't want something from him other than to say hello and thanks (but only after actively seeking him out and getting past the defensiveness). It's still kind of sad in my opinion.

 

Yes and no. In response to my last request, he said something to the effect of "if I sign for you, then I have to sign for everyone that asks," which again demonstrates his adherence to his principles and to being fair. He won't show favoritism to one fan over another. That may be a justification for his distrust, but it makes it seem more fair, especially if you know any of his background at all.

[MedicAR]

Now for an independent thought.....

 

Way back when I started collecting and the light went on that there actual human beings creating them that had different styles, I picked up almost instantly on Jack Kirby and just decided that he had hung the moon. For years and years, I had decided that Kirby was truly King and that he had created the majority of the Marvel Universe. I would never listen to anyone who claimed that would give Stan Lee even the slightest bit of credit. "C'mon, Jack did it all, Stan just wrote the words for the word balloons!" It took a long time to acknowledge Stan's input.

 

Twenty plus years later, I understood how it all came together. None of these guys would have had the success or recognition they now enjoy if the others had not been there with them. I still don't like Stan taking all the credit, but I also don't give all the credit to the artists he was working with. It was a collaborative effort and should be viewed as such.

 

More than anything, I wish someone, anyone could pull off something even close to what Marvel had then.........

[CollectingStanLee]

It's amazing how a thread about obtaining Ditko's sig turns into a referendum on creator credits. Seems to be a lot of underlying disdain for Stan, which I think is unwarranted. The one comic book I own where Kirby takes credit for writing the story (what if #9?), he writes a story about the original Marvel bullpen becoming the Fantastic Four and makes Stan the leader. I think it's sad that there has to be such controversy over credit, after all comic books are meant to be fun. Makes me think I don't need Ditko's sig after all. Just not worth the grief.

[MedicAR]

It's amazing how a thread about obtaining Ditko's sig turns into a referendum on creator credits. Seems to be a lot of underlying disdain for Stan, which I think is unwarranted. The one comic book I own where Kirby takes credit for writing the story (what if #9?), he writes a story about the original Marvel bullpen becoming the Fantastic Four and makes Stan the leader. I think it's sad that there has to be such controversy over credit, after all comic books are meant to be fun. Makes me think I don't need Ditko's sig after all. Just not worth the grief.

 

I haven't seen any disdain for Stan at all. He's just equal to his co-creators, not greater, not lesser.

 

Jack Kirby was an idea generator. He had tons of ideas throughout his career, but none of them were as succesful as the ones he had at Marvel in the 60's. His Fourth World is as close as it came and that's a distant second. His ideas just didn't take off as well without Stan penning the words.

 

Stan can create on his own as well, but without some of the "old guns" to help him flesh them out, they haven't taken off either. His best attempt (that comes to my mind right off) since the SA was the "Just Imagine" line and it was lukewarm at best. He worked with some fantastic talent on those books, Joe Kubert, Jim Lee, Dave Gibbons, and Walt Simonson among others, but they still didn't enjoy the success that Stan had during the heyday at Marvel.

 

I see them all as equals, no one person did it all, they did it together.

[MedicAR]

Without trying to be disagreeable, the What If was #11 (I only know because I own a couple pages and see them daily) and Jack fit as The Thing. Look at Will Eisner's "The Dreamer," Jack was the tough guy that got things done. Besides, everyone saw Stan as the point man at Marvel, anyone else as the leader wouldn't have been credible to the people buying the book. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just saying from the standpoint of storytelling that changing places with the two just wouldn't work.

[CollectingStanLee]

Ok, I couldn't remember which What If issue it was. Perhaps the most politically correct thing is to say that everyone was equally contributing, though personally I don't really agree with that. On the other hand, there is no way to measure Jack Kirby's contributions other than to say they were unparalleled by anyone else from the art side of the equation in the entire industry. Let me just end it by saying it's shame we can't get Kirby's certified sig (died too young at 74) and a shame we can't get Ditko's certified sig (got too disagreeable too young) and leave it at that.

 

 

[Jason Truong]

So I'm trying to understand this... comments that goes against Stan Lee as "sole creator" of Spider-Man, and bringing him to "co-creator" are unwarranted, but comments by you calling Steve Ditko bitter, and that he "got too disagreeable too young" are fine?

 

Makes me think I don't need Ditko's sig after all. Just not worth the grief.

 

I'm sure Ditko doesn't want you to have his sig.

[CollectingStanLee]

Jason, yes we can agree Ditko doesn't want me or anyone else have his signature. Everyone is entitled to their opinions about creator status, but that's not what this thread was supposed to be about. While I've read about all this bickering about credits previously, I don't have the expertise to make a lawyer's case about it, nor do I have that level of interest. Kevin knows far more about Ditko than I do.

 

If you want to argue that Ditko is not bitter, was not bitter young, and has a healthy frame of reference on all of this, fine, just leave me out of it. We were supposed to be having a conversation about signatures, which Ditko has no interest in. This whole thing went sideways. Sorry if I offended loyal Ditko fans in my defense of Stan Lee. I just didn't want to see Stan used as an excuse as to why Ditko can't sign for fans. That makes no sense to me at all.

[Kevin Boyd]

Who said that Stan Lee was the reason why Steve Ditko doesn't sign for fans?

[chainnball]

I guess in a roundabout way...I could see the connection...the bitterness and contempt stems from Stan...6 degrees of Stan...

[Yannis]

I guess he feels like he does not want his potentially signed work to be used as a money making machine. What else could the reason be ? And probably feels that if he opens that door.....tens of thousands of people will rush in! And he might not want that. Trust me if he does any signings the lines will be for miles.

[Kevin Boyd]

Re: cons and signings - he swore off public appearances and signings after doing a couple of conventions in the 1960's. Forty years of being resolute.

 

I know of quite a few people that have tracked him down and tried to convince him to sign (including those that have identified themselves in this thread), and I'm sure that's just a mere fraction of the number that actually contact him by letters or by going to his office. That's probably why he says he can't sign for one, or he'd have to sign for all. Stan Lee? Not even in a roundabout way. Stan never made him do public appearances or sign for fans.

 

Steve had a long career in comics after he left Stan behind, and he even went back to working for Marvel in the 1980's and seemed to have a good relationship with Jim Shooter, following him from Marvel to Valiant to Defiant. I don't see the specter of Stan Lee making him not want to do comics or deal with fans, he just rejects the statements Stan makes in the press about the creation of Spider-Man or the way in which Stan says he is the co-creator of Spider-Man. That's an old beef between two guys.

 

I think it was his troubles with the fan press in the 1970's, and the Eclipse book that fell apart in the 1980's have made him steer clear of requests from fans and the fan press --- after all of that the reply was always "I couldn't care less".

 

There's also the unconfirmed story about a fan pestering him for a sketch at a con, doing that sketch eventually and then having that fan turn around and sell it in front of him that made apparently made him stop sketching (and signing) for people. I don't know if there is any truth to that story, but it is still telling. While I am sure that there are some who merely seek his signature for themselves, there are just as many that see him as a potential source of revenue.

 

[Kevin Boyd]

I've never put Sim and Ditko together like that, but now that you say it, I can see the similarities.

 

Sim is very interested in Ditko and he sees some of the parallels. He's definitely a fan of Steve's art and stories and he's recently been doing back cover illustrations for the Ditkomania fanzine (one of those is up on eBay right now --- Cerebus as Spider-Ham in an Ayn Rand halloween costume).

[greggy]

I've met Steve Ditko when mrhighgrade brought me to his office in Manhattan.

 

Believe me, meeting him is highly overrated.

 

I may have been offended about the quick brush off if I actually gave a sheeit about meeting him.

 

[seanfingh]

I've met Steve Ditko when mrhighgrade brought me to his office in Manhattan.

 

Believe me, meeting him is highly overrated.

 

I may have been offended about the quick brush off if I actually gave a sheeit about meeting him.

 

 

Forum Legend status + Zero street cred = Ditko beatdown

[Hobo]

...6 degrees of Stan...

 

[mr_highgrade]

I've met Steve Ditko when mrhighgrade brought me to his office in Manhattan.

 

Believe me, meeting him is highly overrated.

 

I may have been offended about the quick brush off if I actually gave a sheeit about meeting him.

 

 

At least he shook your hand. BTW, today 11/2 is his birthday. I believe he turns 81.

[greggy]

I've met Steve Ditko when mrhighgrade brought me to his office in Manhattan.

 

Believe me, meeting him is highly overrated.

 

I may have been offended about the quick brush off if I actually gave a sheeit about meeting him.

 

 

At least he shook your hand. BTW, today 11/2 is his birthday. I believe he turns 81.

[CollectingStanLee]

Thanks for pointing that out, Mr. Highgrade, I'm sure we can all wish Mr. Ditko a happy 81st birthday. I think working in comic books must be good for longevity. I wish we could be celebrating this day with Jack Kirby too.

[comicgrinder]

I've met Steve Ditko when mrhighgrade brought me to his office in Manhattan.

 

Believe me, meeting him is highly overrated.

 

I may have been offended about the quick brush off if I actually gave a sheeit about meeting him.

 

 

At least he shook your hand. BTW, today 11/2 is his birthday. I believe he turns 81.