Target Audience of modern comics?

[ignimbrite]

Okay I have just finished reading Final Crisis and while I did enjoy it, the posts I have seen on various boards concerning the negative aspects of the run are quite common. This leads me to my basic question and that is who are these books being written for? As a follow up has the core audience changed over time to an older crown. Anecdotally the evidence seems to point to DC and Marvel pushing toward an older crown of 'investors' but I have no numbers to back this up. Are there studies of any sort (academic or marketing) depicting the audience of comic books and how that core audience has changed?

 

The real reason this came up was because of a conversation I had with another comic loving friend. We both talked about Crisis of the Infinite Earths and how we liked. I specifically remember Crisis #12 being the first comic I read over and over and I was 9 years old. The story made sense and I could follow it (or at least I believed I could follow it). I felt the book was like an episode of the Simpson's (well when the Simpson's were good) in that I could read it an enjoy it at face value (like laughing at Homer falling) or read a bit deeper and find an obscure message (any Simpson's social commentary). I didn't feel this with Final Crisis. If I was 9 reading this book I would wonder why Batman was only there for a few pages and I would have had no clue what happened in the last issue. There would have been little to no value in the book itself.

 

The point I really want to make is still a bit fuzzy in my head but as a whole I have to wonder how bringing out books that need to be debated and pulled apart as the only way to really enjoy it help grow the comic book readership for the future.

 

[Zonker]

I think you're right to wonder. (thumbs u

 

Final Crisis along with most of Morrison's other recent work has been trashed in a lot of on-line forums (certainly including this one). And Morrison has replied in a few interviews words to the effect that he's expecting his readers to keep up with him, and do the work of filling in the bits of exposition he just can't be bothered to write because they apparently bore him.

 

And I've also been disappointed in much of this stuff. While I think it is possible to defend Final Crisis and tease out of it what was intended, you have to ask yourself: Should it be this hard to decipher what's going on in a friggin' comic book?

 

It leads me to think that the intended audience must be the uber-fan who doesn't mind jumping back and forth between the comic and wikipedia, or haunting fan sites that try to deconstruct what's going on, similar to those of us who try to decipher what's going on with the TV show Lost.

 

So it seems DC at least is pandering to its uber-nerd fan base. They've long ago given up on the younger audience-- the distribution model is broken for getting comics in front of kids. I suppose there would be some sense in trying to get new adults (those Lost viewers) to take their place-- Gaiman's Sandman did some of that. But Sandman could be enjoyed at face value, or further researched and annotated for those so inclined. Something like Final Crisis is just inpenetrable unless you're willing to spend a lot of time sussing out the meaning, using sources other than what's printed on the page. That might be fun for some people, but I cannot imagine that's a particularly profitable strategy.

[Zonker]

And another part of it is this:

 

I'm sure no "comic book editor" (not sure that profession-- as practiced by Stan Lee, Archie Goodwin, or Julie Schwartz-- even exists any more!) dares tell the great Grant Morrison that his storyline does not make sense, or at least does not make commercial sense in terms of being accessible enough to a wide enough audience willing to pay for it. Just like no editor could say No to Frank Miller when it came to the horrible Dark Knight Strikes Again or All Star Batman & Robin. Why? Because of this vicious circle:

 

1- The existing, aging fan-base is following big-name creators they recognize from previous, fondly-remembered work.

2- So comics need big-name creators to drive sales.

3- So big name creators are allowed to be self-indulgent and can demand big-dollar salaries.

4- Those big salaries for big creators drive up cover prices.

5- The high cover price narrows the audience, and so the existing aging fan-base cuts back on comics pull lists, narrowing their buying to those big-name creators they recognize from previous, fondly-remembered work...

 

...and down we go. etc. etc. etc.

[Scrooge]

Two great posts, Mr. Z.

 

How I wish then that DC would appropriately vary its pricing to reflect the "star" quality of his writers / artists. People'd pay more for a Morrison / Miller / Gaiman comic than a Wood / Aaron / Vaughn comic and we'd be all happy. Big names would draw more revenues in for the company (as they already are) and the lower price point for newer talent could raise volume for those books. Plus, it would also keep creators on their toes b/c if you graduate to a higher price point comics and you don't deliver, sales would fall and your star would quickly be seen falling. Aaaahhh ... what a wonderful world it could be ... but it won't happen ... pretty much the same way you pay the same $$$ to see Merril Streep or Clint Eastwood at the multiplex as you do to see Anne Hathaway or Jason Biggs.

[Speedy-D]

I think this might be missing the point a little bit. Final Crisis didn't sell so well because it was by Grant Morrison so much as because it was called "Final Crisis." That name has 20+ years of history behind it. Also, comic fans go in for big events, it's sad but true. And we're completionists by nature, which is why I for one bought every issue without liking more than two pages in a row at any time. (Actually I'm not sure there were even two consecutive pages that I actually was thankful that I'd read.)

 

Until the readers' disappointment with a title affects sales, why should DC do anything different? They'd be nutso to stop putting out donkey bung like Final Crisis as long as we keep buying it. And we definitely bought it.

 

My only hope is that the foul taste left over from this travesty lasts long enough to keep people from buying the next worthless Big Thing just because it's called a Big Thing.

 

O, I was thinking about this yesterday ... If this hadn't been called Final Crisis, hadn't been billed as the major thing going in the DC universe for last year, I would have been far less offended. Calling it some sort of Elseworld's title, letting Grant Morrison stroke himself and anyone interested read it, would have been far less offensive to me. I guess what I mean is, taking this particular story and throwing it at us almost under false pretenses is wahat really gets my goat.

[Speedy-D]

Huh, I guess that didn't really address the point of the thread. I'm going to offer a resounding "yes!!!" to the question of whether comics are targeting a different demographic. It's been about a year since I got interested in comics again, and I don't think I've seen ten kids in the LCS in all that time. Literally not even ten in a full year. It's almost all young to middle aged adult males, but I've even seen more women than kids.

 

Knowing that kids aren't getting comic books really bums me out.

[ninanina]

The young adults used to be kids, right? So, I'm thinking a lot of these kids will get into comics when they're young adults.

[Speedy-D]

I doubt it. Comics still don't have a reputation as "cool." Why would anyone get into them as an adult if they weren't exposed as a child? I mean, I'm sure some folks will, there's enough people out there that some folks will do almost everything there is to do, but traditionally people have gotten into them as children. I think it's a really bad sign for the industry.

[John A III]

I think some of the reason they are looked at as uncool is mainly due to some of the collectors. I've been into stores where middle age guys are sitting around a table playing a sailor moon rpg. Now to each their own, but for the greater population of the world, this would tend to be a wierd thing to do. Also comic shop regulars, through no praticular fault of their own, tend to make people uncomfortable if they aren't use to LCS scenes. i believe some of that is just people walking into an often small shop where there is a group of people having a discussion or playing a game and this makes them feel like an outsider immediatly and that they are intruding or interruptiong something. That is kinda sad thing to, because I know I love to share my passion for comics with almost anyone. I hopefully will get my son intrested long term in comics, if not for the investment side, then just for the reading and passing, brcause I know there are people out there that buy, read, and then drop the book on the floor to pick up later if they wish.

[Speedy-D]

I collect comics like nobody's business, and I know exactly what you mean. I've felt the chill of walking into a smaller LCS I've never been to before, where most folks are playing that very Sailor Moon RPG. (Whatever Sailor Moon is.)

[kidcolt]

All I know is that the local kids here don't collect comics. My son is the only one that I know of and to be honest most all modern comics are way over his head. He is about to turn 8 so he is really young however at the same age I was enjoying and reading a lot of different tiles. I think the writing and art work is geared more towards adult readers now instead of kids like it was back 30 years ago.

[ignimbrite]

I have to agree with the ideas that young people don't go into comic shops. I have a fantastic LCS (Big B Comics in Hamilton, Ontario) and they have a 'kids section' and I have heard them telling parents that most modern comics are not kid friendly. This seems to be quite a short sighted business model. Again, maybe I am naive about did anyone here 'pick up' a love of comic collecting who did not collect as a kid? I can't imagine many people turning 18 and buying their first comic. I bought them as a kid, took years off and started again. I would think that this is common.

 

One other minor point. I am starting to understand more and more those people that slam moderns in comparison to silver and bronze. I am still going to buy moderns and will enjoy them but the decompression of story lines is just getting ridiculous. I just finished reading an old Tales of Astonish reprint (the first two Wasp stories) and it was a dense book. In modern terms the two comic story had more dialogue than a full year of a modern main stream book.

[MR.COMICBOOK]

I think some of the reason they are looked at as uncool is mainly due to some of the collectors. I've been into stores where middle age guys are sitting around a table playing a sailor moon rpg. Now to each their own, but for the greater population of the world, this would tend to be a wierd thing to do. Also comic shop regulars, through no praticular fault of their own, tend to make people uncomfortable if they aren't use to LCS scenes. i believe some of that is just people walking into an often small shop where there is a group of people having a discussion or playing a game and this makes them feel like an outsider immediatly and that they are intruding or interruptiong something. That is kinda sad thing to, because I know I love to share my passion for comics with almost anyone. I hopefully will get my son intrested long term in comics, if not for the investment side, then just for the reading and passing, brcause I know there are people out there that buy, read, and then drop the book on the floor to pick up later if they wish.

reminds me of the movies Step-Brothers or The Rocker. middle-aged men who never grew up and living in basements.

[John A III]

yeah it bothered me a lot at the time, think it was 5 or 6 years ago, but still is a scary thought to see 4 middle age, overweight men playing a game that made them teenage girls in skimpy skirts.

[UnRested Spectre]

Hiyo!

 

Hmm... interesting question! To some people's dismay (Actually, many!) I was actually stoked all through Final Crisis. To be truthfully honest, I do believe the actual enjoyment of the series is in all remembering of the many tidbits/(out of the woodwork characters) that Grant Morrison dropped in the series to have us use our "vast comic minds" of "comic lore" or "scowering the seven seas of our comic short/long boxes" for that backstory of the character/(s), that many of us have not read about in quite a long time, to understand and grasp the connection to Final crisis... and it was awesome!

 

I drooled for the completion of Grant Morrion's Final Crisis all to the end... even though that is only the second work I have ever read of his! The first being... Se7en Soldiers of Victory ('06/ DC/ Trade paperback (4)), loved it... after reading it twice!

 

Shoot!

 

The first time I saw his name and heard he was gonna be doing DC's big event, I said to myself... "What is the big deal with people basing their comic book buying on writers' names. Wait! That name sounds familiar... sounds like a writer I know of from a book I saw before when I was in a Borders or was it in school? When do book-writers write comics?"

 

(Then I thought Neil Gaimen and his, Books of Magic series! )

 

To get back on point...

 

... comic books of the Modern Age are seemed to be geared to those with... "the egos" that have a (supposed) "higher intellectual skills in the fields of critical thinking". Though while catering to those same egos with the flaws of loving to see there heroes and/or (mostly) heroines drawn in the manner of their favorite art-style... "the ultimate sexual delights"- style.

 

Do not get me wrong... I love the art of (back then), but face the truth of today! We do not wanna see some badly drawn Wonder Woman or Supergirl and do not get me started on the many on the different art-styles looks of the Bruce/Batman, Superman and definitely... The Joker.

 

We want crisp, sexy art (Almost like them high-budget Hentai movies and our certain favorite Manga) of our DC, Marvel, and other comic industry universes-alike, whether they be heroes or not.

 

Though it varies for some comic book industries, but Top Cow (Back in the day, for example!) did make it quite a splash with the run of series they had with their... "super sexy hotties", whether they be demon, man, woman, or other! Though they also, at the same time did call for some top writing of... "conspiracy-theory type stories", and it got them loads of successfulness!

 

Sexy and complicated... sell!

 

It stands to make some sense that many comic book collectors of the future will come in the forms of older teenage adults finding a legal source of sexy pictures from the Big-wig comic industry giants they know of (Due to the industries being highly recognizable and familiar in some way or not), because... just look at Marvel with its billions of "sexy varient issues" or "sexy art-style issues", for example!

 

Few DC Examples:

JLA (There is a reason for the love for Zatanna and Vixen!)

JSA (Judo-Master! Sorry, PowerGirl!)

Titans (Got to love the "realistic art-style"!)

Teen Titans (Check out that BombShell! Been waiting to use that! )

Supergirl

Wonder Woman

Secret Six

 

Though one exception to the rule is... the art-style for Black Adam: The Dark Age ('07-'08/ DC/ Mini (6)), was top notch and people loved it! Now! Same guy went on and did the art for... Final Crisis: Superman Beyond ('08-'09/ DC/ Mini (2)) and Final Crisis ('08-'09/ DC/ #7)... many thrashed the art by Doug Mahnke and it was the same guy they was praising from Black Adam series!

[Speedy-D]

wow...

[John A III]

I agree that sexy and complicated sell, I haven't read final crisis yet (just bought #1 off of ebay and will hopefully get to read it all this weekend). And while most of the writing and artwork in moderns is great, the main complaint I hear about final crisis is the decompression of the story line, Now while I know it would be great to have all DC fans reading all the books that will converge into this, it just isn't going to happen. I've seen this for other books. When I got back into comics two years ago i had to read all the trades that lead up to infinite crisis, and while Identity crisis was absolutely amazing, some of the other books just didn't grab my interest, and likely wouldn't have been in my comic box if they weren't recommended by the shop owner. I've seen this for a lot of things, just like the upcoming blackest night saga. I love the GL & GLC series; however, I'm not going to go buy all the other comics just to get the omen & orgin stories, will this mean I might miss out on some things in the Blackest Night saga, Yes. Will it be important information, I hope not. Will it make me go and buy those to find out what I missed, Not at all. So I guess it's just what people like, I love the artwork of the moderns, and the storyline is pretty nice most of the time, but all in all I wish they would leave the condensing performed in Crisis on Infinte Earths alone and stop trying to recomplicate it.

[maloney414]

DC is number 2 and will be behind Marvel for a long time because it seems like they don't even try to snatch new readers. The new readers I'm talking about are the MARVEL readers already in those LCS.

 

No Marvel fan, who casually follows DC stuff could jump on during Final Crisis and get hooked. Period.

 

For Marvels part, at least their main concepts are easy to understand for new readers. (DC readers who may be checking out Marvels big event.)

 

Secret Invasion: There are aliens in disguise pretending to be heroes

Civil War: These guys are for registration, these guys are against

House of M: Each hero was granted there deepest desire to keep them in the dream

 

DC needs to at least get Batman, Superman and there big events new reader friendly.

 

Batman and Final Crisis are a mess for attracting new readers right now.

 

I did think the NEW KRYPTON story was new reader friendly though. 100,000 Kryptonians are here on Earth, what happens next? Plus, one of them is Zod. Pretty simple jumping on concept.

 

DC did have something way back with IDENTITY CRISIS. That mini was fantastic. You didn't need to know tons of history to enjoy it. Then the Infinite Crisis Blue Beetle Death issue was very interesting too. They seemed fresh at that point.

 

Then when Infinite Crisis came out, I think they lost those Marvel readers again. They could have gone in a direction with Lex Luthor as the mastermind leading the conspiracy or something, but instead they went backwards to old material that alienates Marvel readers. It also makes it seem like the well of ideas is dry.

 

 

[AGGIEZ]

One other minor point. I am starting to understand more and more those people that slam moderns in comparison to silver and bronze. I am still going to buy moderns and will enjoy them but the decompression of story lines is just getting ridiculous. I just finished reading an old Tales of Astonish reprint (the first two Wasp stories) and it was a dense book. In modern terms the two comic story had more dialogue than a full year of a modern main stream book.

 

Completely agree with this. Case in point is RASL, a popular new series by Jeff Smith. Although the story "idea" is intriguing, the content is shallow, i.e. not a lot of diologue (cue PhiGam). Alot of the books that come out these days are the same way. Its almost as if the writers know they're popular, have a following and don't feel like they have to put a whole lot of deep thought and work in to their content. They realize they'll still sell the books based on name recognition and hype alone.

[John A III]

I agree, I don't believe that most of DC titles are written to grab new readers. I don't read much marvel, but did enjoy House of M trade, and was up and down with Civil War. Now the only books I get from Marvel is spider-man and the ultimate spidey line. I prefer DC titles mainly because of characters I like and I like the art work more than I do Marvels for the most part. Infinite crisis was a decent story line, I presonnally like the end with the Joker and Alex Luther. Other than that I think infite crisis just opened the door to expand the DC universe, which I'm not that thrilled about because it is going to make the storyline much more complicated to follow, I just hope the wirters I like keep the story good.